rose

hi everyone,

my hubby post here as thook. we have had several questions about my 92. "frog" was a gift from a dear friend. frog was used for many years in animal being transport as she belonged to the cruelty investigator for our area (NW arkansas). she was passed on to me as we have an animal sanctuary providing a permanent home for special needs animal beings (501 c 3 non profit humane society). i love this vehicle. i know the engine has issues, knew that from the beginning. frog came with a rebuilt motor that had 21,000 miles on the rebuild when she threw a rod. never could get a clear reason from the original mech as to engine failure and need for original rebuild, frog just froze one day(she had the original head gasket repair under toy warranty). the mechanics said must have been run w/o oil, which did not happen. jen, my friend, had been to pricey but inept mechanics. several years of complaining of "missing" failed to detect failed fuel injector. the rebuild was farmed out to fay motor exchange which might as well have been a preschool summer project for their level of expertise. we got frog at about 16,000 on the rebuild. had faulty fuel injector replaced, added tranny cooler, franz oil bypass and franz tranny bypass, run mobil one in engine and amsoil in tranny, auto rx everywhere it can be applied, and anything else we could think of to promote optimal health.

we took her to a mechanic who seemed like a fine fellow, and highly recommended. he said he found a motor with original 18,000 that had been wrecked. it was bait and switch. he also kept us hanging on for three months with trouble with shipping company lines. he bought a rebuild on ebay for much less than what we paid him...that part now is in negotiation. the rebuild was done by a fellow in new york that has almost 24 years experience with toys, and a love affair with them. he is also a fan of this forum. he has stellar rating on ebay. so, now we have a rebuild with about 50 miles tops. the rebuild is from an 89. everything was replaced best we can tell from talking to the fellow. the 89 motor had a cracked cast iron sleeve, 103,000 original miles. the fellow, i will call him cm, replaced the sleeve, new pistons, timing, oil pump, rings, all bearings, gaskets and seals, valves redone.

my questions...

1) cm did not replace the head bolts. cm said his machinist looked at the bolts and said they were good to reuse. when i asked cm about it he says now after reading that he believes it would have been the best thing to do. cm said we could replace the head bolts one at a time and not disturb the head gasket. i called a fellow, ed, at the toy dealership, one of the few that knows anything, and ed said if they are original toy head bolts, they almost never replace them in a rebuild, yes, a few times they do, but all in all, the head bolts are not stretched upon inspection.
i know toy parts are often better, at least that is what i hear. at this point we have a head gasket that we believe has been set well by someone who understands the torque. we are in a toy challenged area.

i would appreciate any feedback on this issue.

2) can anyone tell me what type of cast iron is used in the 3vze. i read many pros and cons on the different cast iron. when you all do a rebuild do you replace with the same cast iron or have you found one that you appreciate more?

3) am still waiting to hear back from cm on the reason the sleeve failed. can anyone tell me what are common causes for failure?

4) in this thread...
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...vze+head+bolts

the statement

"Now some of the newer models of the 3.0 came out with no problems,"

has stirred up lots of questions for me. we had, have, a 92 engine and will be putting in an 89. can anyone tell me what the 89 might not have design wise that the 92 would have.

5) waiting to hear back from cm on what brand of parts he used. is there a particular brand to avoid?

6) also waiting to hear back on cam and crank, visual inspection and what if anything was done to either. rebuild is new to me, and frankly gives me reason for pause. any information on how to intelligently ask the right questions about cam and crank and what the information will tell me.

i don't care about power and more mileage would be nice, but have managed to average around 16 to 18 by good driving habits. frog is used to haul a trailer with 1300 pounds of meat and another 4 to 500 of kibble in the cargo. she does it admirably. our road requires 4wheel and she climbs and hauls with ease. she is used to transport sick and injured animal beings, and does it admirably. she is comfortable to drive, my slow moving girl with the big thighs lol. i just want to do the best i can with this rebuild and make the best decisions. we use full synthetics, only recently switching from amsoil because it is hard to locate here and looks like from bobistheoilguy that most fluids have improved dramatically. we will be adding a franz filter for fuel.

frog has about 190,000. prior to coming here she was taken to lube places (oye vey)and pricey idiot mechanics, dealership included. her body is excellent, so is interior. i drive her about 5 to 7m a year. i never drive her hard.

i want to ask correct and intelligent questions when i talk to cm. he is very upfront with any info i ask for. i did not ask about the rods, if they were replaced. do you usually replace them? the more i know about the motor the less surprises down the road. frog is a true service vehicle and we want to make the most intelligent decisions. we would replace the head bolts if we were confident it would not disturb the head and we had a mechanic that was toy friendly. the fellow doing the transplant is not a toy fan (no one is perfect), but he is one of those arkies that was probably born in a motor, has done every config you could imagine and some you would not think of. he is doing the transplant as a favor since he does not take on jobs like this, tranny's his specialty. the original bait and switch fellow bailed out on the transplant after scamming us. we are paying 750 for the transplant. is that a reasonable price? seems so to us.

any input most sincerely appreciated.

rose

suprathepeg

1. I told your husband that I personally never reuse head bolts and IIRC with Toyota's new HG recall they use all new head bolts as they have had so many fail again after the initial recall (I could be wrong about the bolts but I seem to remember that being one of the conditions now) I mean new bolts are like $34. Also I wondn't trust a head gasket that was torqued bolts pulled and new bolts put in. I would demand that the hg is replaced with the new bolts.

2. Don't know about the type of cast iron, but I do know that the 3vze bottom ends are known to be as tough as the HGs are notorious, so I wouldn't worry about the bottom end castings being generally weak.

3. You are the first person I've heard that have had a 3.0 sleeve failure, its not common. I'd imagine either there was a flaw in the metal or serious overheating, or it was starved for oil or most likely a combination of all 3.

4. All 3.0 engines had problems mostly to do with the crossover system in the exhaust causing heat buildup on the driver's side ofthe engine.

5. Topline rebuild kits from engnbldr.com are what we use ,they seem to be very good and priced very well.

6. The cam and crank should have been checked my the machine shop to ensure that they are within spec and most importantly balanced. Here is a good write-up on engine building by Ted from engnbldr, it deals mostly with the 2.4 but the machining protion applys.

Finally your husband has gotten some good advice regarding this all I can say is for my part I only say what I would do myself and most of it was to help insure you have a good and lasting rebuild,do with it what you want. To me its worth the extra time and money.

Write-up: http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showfl...5&o=14&fpart=1

I hope all is well for you and problem free.

P.S. Be sure to replace the Knock Sensor and wire at the very least cause its a huge pain to get to once the engine is in and typically fail shortly after a rebuild if reused.

rose

thank you so much for your reply. thook had a good laugh with my oily dog avatar (one of the poster children for the katrina animal being tragedy) and the rose in the sig. we had a good laugh and thought i should have signed on with some handle like toy chick or road rage mama...might have garnered more responses lol. funny thing is i found this forum eons ago and turned him on to it.

the reason we are sticking with the head bolts, after talking to everyone that has been involved in replacing either a few gaskets or in the toy mech experience, up-wards of 500...is we don't have anyone that is available that we feel knows toy specs enough to do the job, except the toy mechanic at the dealer, and god knows, we cannot afford the dealership. this mechanic quit the dealership for awhile and worked from his home...and we were oh so happy to avail ourselves of his services. couple that with the fact the motor is at one mech who bought the rebuild against our wishes or knowledge, and then bailed out on us for transplant, after making his sizable profit. we would have to find someone that knew toys that was an independent because the one other foreign car mechanic place in this area that is any good at all is a rip off. all the other places are far away, and we have no idea if they are any good either. there have been points when i have been in tears. since i only drive 5 to 8 k a year if it last a couple fine...and if i do have to replace now i see going to 3.4 is not all that difficult. many thanks to the marvelous thread on that issue. i did ask when this first came up and everyone locally said oh no, you can't replace with 3.4. i did not ask the toy mech at the dealer however. i only bother him when i have no other avenues.

i have had recommendations for breaking in to use dino for first 1000 miles to create some wear for rings to seat. change at 100, then 500, and as an added precaution 1000, then switch to syn. can you comment on this from your experience?

thanks so much for your comments. if we were rich and or even had someone we could take the engine to for head-bolts we would. many will say they know torque for toys but folks say anything. with all the things we have paid to have done that were not done correctly we are hoping with the odds on our side that the rebuild will hold. at least we know that the fellow that did the rebuild has been doing it for almost 24 years and does know toys.

thanks again,

rose

ps...and the knock sensor and wire...consider it done. thank you.

rose

and we would do the head-bolts ourselves if we were not afraid of screwing things up. i worked in a garage for a year 30 years ago so i could have some knowledge of engines. i love mechanical things anyway. the thread you just referenced has some very interesting points and i will pour over and absorb. we just don't feel competent to do the job ourselves. the mech who is going to do the transplant does not want to do the head bolts...he is taking on the transplant as a personal favor.

thanks...

suprathepeg

Here's the thing its really quite easy once you get the intake and such off. There is a FSM posted on 4x4wire: http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/ you should be able to get any info you want there on the engine etc. I would attempt it myself if I was you. I'd actually practice on the engine thats dead so you know what your doing first. Otherwise I would try and at least see if the mechanic will let you watch what he does so you get to understand. Most things are a lot easier then you thing I mean how hard is it to turn some bolts?

thook

Well, watching the mechanic is out of the question. He's in it for engine removal and installation period. So, yeah doesn't look hard at all. Considering not all of the parts are installed on the motor top yet. Actually, if I remember correctly, we are down to the manifold as it is. Will I need any special tools other than sockets and wreches? Torque wrench?

suprathepeg

Sockets, wrenches and rent a torque wrench and a hoist. And make sure you are confident with every step before taking it, so take your time.

rose

hi supra...just got home myself...town pu day. thook very excited to tell me we can do it ourselves. so, not a problem...we will. we will do as you suggested, take our time. we do have a torque but not sure if the cal is accurate. we will ask the mech if he has one with good cal just in case. how would we know if ours is cal correctly? i have never been opposed to doing it, the cost is minimal, but was uneasy. the motors i used to work on were not the hybrid metals and torque was pretty simple. toys have so many special needs and i just did not want to screw something up.

will now read rest of post...thook told me how the heat shield tape will not work...we do have a good muffler shop, independant...at least i think he is good. the original fellow just retired. i had been going to him for over 20 years. new fellow nice tho and we will see what we come up with. if the motor could last more than a couple of years i would love that. i still want to put in headers. very impressed with what i read...just would like to find them used if i can. thook did find some online for 175...will have to find the link. if the exhaust modifications run who knows, 50? then if the ones online are okay then i might just go that route. a friend who races explained headers to me in detail. he did say the increased torque did put a little more strain on the tranny, but not much being daily drivers. the tranny has about 190 on it. we have added a tranny cooler and franz bypass, ran auto rx and have amsoil fluid. would like to get a little more life out of the tranny before that issue surfaces as from what we are told, the torque converter is intertwined so it is a pretty expensive job. the fellow doing the transplant said it runs about 1800 but when he tears down a tranny he replaces everything. he is one of the best tranny guys in this area, might say he is legendary. he is also expensive.

since we will be tearing the motor down a notch can you tell us anything we might look for in the rebuild as warning signs. i read how the head has to be surfaced just so in addition to tons of other things from the link you sent this morning.

have another question...the water pump on the new motor is oem and has about 103,000 on it. toy says their water pumps rated to go 150 to 200,000. my friend who has a toy, has had several, says he gets about 170 on his. if we replace we go with after market cause it is what we can afford. what would you do given the above restrictions?

thanks so much,

rose, which is my middle name.

suprathepeg

If you are unsure about your torque wrench then rent one or borrow whatever works.

Tranny in that truck is good for another 50HP no problem so no worries there.

Many people replace their water pump when the engine is out cause its so easy, rather then doing it a year later fighting with the engine installed. I'd replace it, do what you want though.

Just look for anything that looks out of the ordinary and post your questions as they arise, I'd give the rebuild the benefit of the doubt like I said.

rose

hey supra, maybe you can answer this question...it has bugged me. before the motor blew, like maybe a month before, the ck eng lite came on. had a reading and it was the er system, which turned out to be a hose issue. drove around for awhile, fine, then came back on. place that did the scan said gee, dunno. shortly after that she started a whining...god it was so loud. again, going to foreign car repair place, the pricey one in town, they had not a clue and not really interested since one of their top mech had quit and they were swamped. then i cked with my original muffler fellow and he said to ck the cat convert. we hollowed out the converter and the sound went away. for the next two weeks frog was a speed demon. she had never had so much power. threw all my good driving habits to the wind for about a week but when mpg went down to 13 quickly went back to original driving habits. it was sure fun tho. anyway, about a week later the whining started again, most noticeable on mountain upgrades. i asked every mech i knew to listen and give best guess...but all i got was dunno. we finally found a mech that is very detailed in his evaluations and frog already had an appointment with him but just days later threw the rod. at least this is the diagnosis the bait and switch mech diagnosed. i would like to tear down frog's motor when it comes out to see just what failed. we do know there was bearing failure as mech we had just found did oil analysis. and no, he does not do engine rebuilds etc anymore.

my question...the whining. what was it? it has remained one of those unanswered questions that i would love to trace down.

rose

suprathepeg

sounds like the CATwas deffinately clogged. Can't say about the wining could be anything sounds like drivetrain to me, but like I said hard to say without being there.

Here is a link to a site that will tell you how to pull your own codes:

http://www.off-road.com/toyota/tech/codes/

rose

it was definitely in the motor...thook and i kept trying to troubleshoot it since we could not get any answers where we sought them...thook was wondering if bearings can make that sound before they go...and odd that at first the hollowing out of the cat took care of it, for almost 2 weeks...then back again followed by the engine failure. it never was as loud when it reappeared...and the ck engine lite stayed on.

suprathepeg

What happened that caused the engine to fail?

rose

don't know. recap

ck engine lite, efi problem, hose issue
hose issue resolved
lite off
2 hours later lite back on
few days later whining, very loud
cat clean
whining gone, super power 2 weeks
whining back, not as loud (more background sound)power still good
ck engine lite still on
hauling 1300 meat, uneventful journey, hour drive
2 miles from home loud knocking
oil analysis reveals bearing material
switch and bait mech dia rod failure
frog still runs, no mixing of coolant and oil

all we know so far.

suprathepeg

K so you spun a rod bearing or broke a rod. I've never heard of that being related to a whining sound but who am I. At this point I'd say throw in the new motor if the sound is still there then you have a drivetrain problem.

Actually maybe you had an oil pump failure which would explain that, Don't resue the oil pump anyway it should be replaced like water pump etc. If it was starved for oil somehow then it would deffinatly spin a bearing. Not sure the CAT would effect that though and they could be unrelated other then increased back pressure? This is deffinately an interesting one.

rose

cm installed a new oil pump with the rebuild. said even tho rule of thumb is not to replace in rebuild if it is working properly, he always replaces.

ps...i always thought the oil pressure was low. ed in parts at toy said he had a 93 that registered on the low side, but he had no problems;wondered if it was a quirk. daily driving would have the oil indicator on the line between too low and norm. idling revving to 4000 rpm would create rise, reverting back to on the line setting during driving.

compression ck earlier in year all cylinders in excellent health.

thook

Well, what she didn't mention about the motor failure was when she got home that fateful night and the motor was knocking real hard, it dumped two quarts of oil from behing the timing cover. And if you looked down you could see the crankshaft pulley wobbling around. Other than that, the motor was still running (before I had her shut it off) and was able to drive it a couple of miles to a nearby shop to be looked at. Never missed timing either.

rose

frog motor rebuild prior...
motor froze
mays auto said dunno, must have been driven w/o oil...like, couldn't they tell?
motor to fay motor exchange...bunch of idiots
frog returned to jen, 3500$ later.
jen said "i don't know what they did, but she is not the same. they have screwed something up really bad". frog would be driving along and just stop.
eventually frog settled in with the rebuild, stopped stalling. jen kept saying she does not feel the same.

frog comes here...immediately take her to foreign car shop, fairly good, rip off however. failed injector, number 5 i think. looking back on mech history jen had been complaining of missing...everything in the world was replaced for hum, almost 2 years, but the fuel injector. frog had repair history for two shops...neither dia the fuel injector. however, when we drove her we could tell immediately one cylinder was not firing.

the shop that did the injector change out said failed injector can cause motor to blow, lubricants in gas keep cylinder lubricated and guessed that is what happened the first time to cause engine failure. cost of repair 350, one fuel injector and installation, period, and compression ck.

we have had several refute that information, and one or two to confirm. we have no idea who is correct.

we have no doubt the oil pump was not replaced at rebuild. it took months for mays auto to even locate who did the rebuild, as there were no records. and, get this, they no longer use fay motor exchange because when a rebuild fails fme gives them a hard time about warranty. the new guys they use honor the warranty. hum...does not sound encouraging. mays never even told jen she had a one year or some low mile warranty. i had to keep after them to figure out who did the rebuild. they have some "records keeping" issue. for several months i waited to find out more on what fay m e replaced and got tired of trying. like i said, no records, either place...hum.

jen gave us a nice vehicle, frog was running good except for the one cylinder...everything worked on her. the repairs, upgrades (like plug wires etc) and preventative we did on frog brought her to good performance, like i said 16 to 18 mpg.

interesting side note, the pricey foreign mech shop that did the injector said you only get 13 mpg...why that does not sound right. now we see that is common.

another screw up of theirs...when putting in the franz had hard time matching up thread...took the oil sending unit to so many places, including pricey guys...it was a "mystery" thread.

franz fellow and us keep searching it...turned out to be bspt, which we found out the japanese used. we had been not only to pricey, but every parts store, and the toy dealership. no one could diagnose the thread. contacting franz homeoffice brought the answer immediately along with web search we were all doing.

now you get an idea of what we are saying...we live in a toy challenged area. we go to mech that can't identify a thread, or even know that japanese use bspt, or average mpg.

rose

right, i forgot that part. that was the same week the well company (one of the largest in this area) got our pump lodged and we lost all water. took three months for 4 service calls, breaking off pipe pieces, only to have them go dunno...and then talking to retired "fishers" (they fish wells) to find a solution other than drilling a new well (2000+). found simple solution, installed water storage tank and timer to compensate for 20 feet of lost well, and now we have more water than we have ever had. however, while all this was going on with frog we were hauling water for over 200 animal beings, and did not have frog our main hauling vehicle. if anyone on this forum ever has well issues we learned about a pump that is so far superior in design (german) it leaves others in the dust, electronics monitor pump and shut off in fraction of second during trouble, is less that three inches in dia so can set in well with several pipe pieces floating around, has soft start motor, 3 permanent magnets so no torque when starting (important on fragile shale shelf "and" floating pipe pieces). grundfos, ck it out.

suprathepeg

There are people that fish in wells? I've never heard of that.