spurlockda

I've been chasing this one for a couple of years now. 87, 22R, long bed, auto tran.

I hop into the truck, drive around for a while (the engine gets good and warm) and after I'm in the store for a little bit, I go back out to drive back home, stick the key in and turn it and nothin'? No starter clak, no nothin? After it sits for 3/4 of an hour or so, it'll start.

I've changed: ignition switch, battery, battery cabled (both) (cleaned all connections) starter, changed the A/T temp sw and I'm sure other things I've forgotten. Somebody told me to jumper a couple of wires in the connector where the tranny temp switch connects in. Didn't work. Nothing works!

I gotta get this fixed because somebody is gonna smash out the window and steal it because I have to leave it running.

After I had to walk home really far one time, I almost took my .45 to it.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

As long as the engine is running your good correct??

It is only when you shut it off for like 10 minutes Correct ??

Does your fuse box have power so all other electric circuits work??

Awaiting this answer!!!

Big difference between a no crank issue and a complete power loss.

mldave

Don't know nothing about mechanics but a friend bypassed the starter relay? on my 86 truck with a push button and when I get that no click I put the key to the on postion,push in the clutch and push the button and it starts everytime.Also have a toggle switch to bypass the cold start injector first start of the mornings.Crank the starter,flip up the toggle,starts right up.Then I flip toggle down.It's all chintzy stuff but it works for me.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

Auto trans can be just a little different

RJR

You need to troubleshoot the starter circuit while the problem is occuring. Pick a nice day, get a handheld DVM, drive the truck around until it's warm, and then pull into your driveway and shut it off. Make sure the problem is showing itself.

The starter circuit is fairly simple. Basically, it works like this. (this is from a '94 wiring diagram, so there may be a few differences in yours, but it'll be similar.)
- Ignition switch applies 12V to the starter relay.
- Starter relay closes, applying 12V through Park-Neutral switch to starter solenoid.
- Starter solenoid (inside starter) closes, applying 12V through large direct cable from battery to starter, at which point the engine starts turning over.

So, find the starter relay. While someone holds the key in START, check if the starter relay coil is getting voltage. If not, your problem is in the ignition switch and/or wiring.
If you have voltage at the relay coil, check the other side of the relay coil and make sure it's at ground. If not, you have an open ground on the starter relay coil.

If the relay coil checks out, next check to see if the relay is passing 12V through it. Check the voltage on both sides of the relay switch terminals. Should be 12V on both sides when the key is in the START position. If not, the relay is not switching. Probably needs replacement.

If the relay checks out, next check to see if you're getting that same 12V at the starter solenoid input (the small wire going to the starter, not the big one.) If not, you likely have a problem in the Park-Neutral switch or associated wiring.

If that checks out, but the starter still isn't turning, check the voltage on the big wire at the starter. If that is 12V, you likely have a solenoid problem inside the starter - possibly bad contacts. You'll need to pull it off and replace or rework the contacts. There are several writeups on this site about how to do that.

If the big wire isn't providing 12V to the starter, you have a problem with the fat cable in the direct connection between the starter and the battery. Sometimes cables corrode internally, and even though the connections look good, the cable is actually bad an inch or so inside the insulation.

Since the problem is temperature sensitive, I lean toward either a problem with the starter relay (not switching when it's hot) or a problem in the starter solenoid circuit inside the starter that is similarly temperature sensitive. 15 minutes with a DVM should point you to the right place.

spurlockda

As long as the engine is running your good correct??

Yes, while driving everything works fine. Tomorrow I'll double check.

It is only when you shut it off for like 10 minutes Correct ??

Yes to this one too but it is usually a little longer, like going in the store shopping for stuff and checking out.

Does your fuse box have power so all other electric circuits work??

Again, tomorrow I'll double check. Sorry, I should have paid better attention. Rage from having to walk made me forget good trouble shooting.

spurlockda

For MLDave, I heard about somebody doing the bypass strategy and then there was the jumper past the start neutral switch but that brought in its own problems like starting in Drive or Reverse. I really want to fix it so that it works as designed to avoid creating more problems.

spurlockda

For RJR, I'll start working on that troubleshooting but I'm going to have to refresh my brain on some stuff. I got so hacked off at it before that I parked it and bought a 93 4-runner. That is going to be the subject of a different thread for some issues.

One thing that is a fuzzy memory is the location of the starter relay I think. I remember pulling the kick panels and some other stuff looking for a relay and I think that was it. I have some schematics somewhere so I'll start on your list tomorrow while I'm answering Woyming's questions.

Anybody have a quick answer where the start relay is on the 87 p/u just in case I can't find the schematics?

Sorry to sound like an airhead but my brain kinda go jumbled during my War yrs. I forget most everything so I have to write sticky notes to myself. Sometimes I forget to eat even. Works great on dates though - I have a Dr's note when I can't remember her name

mldave

Spurlockda,as I posted above I'm not in the least mechanical but from what I read when I had my troubles with this problem it was the poor Toyota wiring on this part for certain year trucks.Here is a google page link that may help you out.I'm sure there are fellows on this site who can explain the bypassing of the stater relay on the automatics.....https://www.google.com/#q=bypassing+...uck.......good luck.......or maybe just try the hotshot starter.My friend made mine himself....https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f120...otshot-115097/

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

The start relay is on the right inner fender.

I would go look but my pink fuzzy slippers don`t do well in snow .

spurlockda

Wyoming, I think I remember looking at the schematics and there was a different relay in the system that I couldn't find. I'm getting ready to go warm it up and I'll let you all know what I come up with.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

My bad I was thinking manual Trans

The only thing in the Auto Starting circuit is the ignition switch

The fusible links

The neutral safety switch

I looked at both the 86 and 88 EWD`s I doubt 87 is different but it might be.


Someplace you have a connection effected by heat.

Could be on the ground side or in the starting circuit

scope103

The starter relay in '93 is in the under-hood fuse block. http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b.../2powersou.pdf I have heard that earlier 2d-gen pickups (maybe as late as '87) didn't have that relay, and instead switched starter current through the ignition switch. (!) You'll have a sticker under the cover of the fuse block, so that's the first thing you can resolve.

A little terminology will help: when the truck is "warm" and won't start, does everything else electrical work? (Radio, lights, ...) No click at all from the starter? If so, it sure sounds like the starter itself. The relay (if you have one) shouldn't get that warm, but the starter is in contact with the block so it heats up to block temperature.

RJR set out a pretty good diagnosis sequence; do that and you'll find the problem.

spurlockda

OK, here's the scoop. Drove it around for about 30 minutes or so and the temps were stabilized about mid range on the temp guage. Shut it down and after about 10 or 15 minutes went out and sure enough it wouldn't start. I checked the various other electrical items, horn, lights, wipers, tunes etc. and all of them worked. One thing I noticed when I turned to key was that the idiot lights dimmed a little - no noise out of the starting system, no klacks, starter motor spinning, nuthin just silence. I turned the headlights back on and when I turned the key they dimmed slightly. Once again, I cleaned of of the gound connections at the battery, on the fender frame near where the battery is and down where the ground wire connects to the block. Still no start.

I looked all over inside the engine compartment and couldn't find any start relay.

As much as I hate this (I replaced the starter once-it still looks kinda new) I guess I will have to get another one and see what happens. I'll go ahead and get another one but before I stick it in, I am going to clean those connections and see if that will do anything. It should be easy to see if the direct connect of the positive battery connection is present but I want to see if I can check to see if the key switch voltage is there when I turn the key. I don't have anyone to help but I think I can 'figger' out a way to do it.

to test the theory that the battery is heating up, I started cooling down some water in the fridge and I'll pour that on the starter - slowly so I don't thermally shock it and crack something - and see if that fixes it. If none of that works, then I'll slap that new starter in and see if that fixes it. I'm gonna be pissed if it turns out to be the starter overheating just from the normal heat of driving around. Not sure who I'll be most pissed at, the Toyota design or the aftermarket starter rebuilders. If it does turn out to be the starter cooking, I'm going to have to figure out how to put some sort of heat shield between the body of the starter and the block and maybe a piece of head gasket or something where the starter bolts into the block.

Any more ideas or criticisms of my trouble shooting ideas would be most welcome - even jokes about my ideas would OK. Maybe they will lighten my mood about buying another starter.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

I will try to find a better picture of the starter relay. Here is a link to clean the contacts in the Starter Relay https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...l#post51746363

Cleaning the contacts in the relay, replacing the contacts and plunger in the starter, good cable connections ( I like to make battery cables from welding cable), good battery cleaning and maintenance.

It is on the passenger fender between the fuse box and wiper motor area.
There are 6 tabs that need to be lifted up and the metal can will pop off. If it is difficult to remove, the rubber seal is what is sticking to the metal. Just take it easy and work a jewelers screwdriver around the edge of the rubber to break its contact to the metal case.


Here it is seperated. This works great for as bad as it may look. I used a small piece of 800 grit sand paper and cleaned the carbon from in between the contacts. A cheap but great fix. Check Rad4Runner thread for more and better info.


I have verified that control power is getting to starter relay using method in earlier post (here).

With starter relay energizing, but starter solenoid not energizing, I suspect badly pitted /corroded starter relay contacts AND/OR ignition switch ST1 contacts causing high resistances and hence, excessive voltage drops.

To eliminate resistance of ignition switch ST1 contacts, I moved terminal 4 of starter relay directly to fused side of 40A fuse (see schematic here)

I was left with potentially bad starter relay contacts. I took starter relay part. Pic below shows starter relay with contacts open.


It is difficult to tell condition of contacts without a microscope and I could not find my 2000 grit lapping film, so I just ran 400 grit sandpaper a couple of times between contacts and blew clean with air spray can. That should remove any pitting/corrosion.


I'll monitor and see if I still have any starting issue.

How does the relay work?

One side of contact is connected to +12Volt (ideally directly from fused line directly off the battery and NOT through ignition switch as in schematic). Other side of contact is connected to control (coil) terminal of starter solenoid here.
One side of relay coil is connected to ground through clutch safety switch (when clutch is pushed down) or clutch safety cancel switch (if activated).
Other side of coil gets +12Volts from start contacts (ST1) of ignition switch.
Coil creates electromagnetic force and pulls armature toward it, closing contacts and causing current to flow to starter solenoid (piggybacked on starter motor). Here's a video of starter relay energizing (housing removed).
[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE][/QUOTE]

spurlockda

I took some pics of my fender/wheel well and I have no relay that looks like that. I'm not sure about how to upload the pics but I'll give it a try.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

My brothers 88 22r truck has a Starter Relay as I had to fix his just the other day. The 85 and older models don't have a Starter Relay. Someone has probably jury rigged it and removed it. Pictures will help to see what it looks like there.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

As far as I can see only the MANUAL Transmissions have the starter relay the auto does not!!

It sucks to be hunting something not there..

In the old days in Big block race cars running headers I had heat problems with no exhaust on that side I doubt heat is the problem.

Old worn out Ground cables I would swap those out before changing the starter sounds like a bad ground to me.

You might want to run a new ground cable right to the bottom starter bolt!!

New ground cables fix all kind of starting and charging problems.

What do the battery terminals look like tight and nice and bright??

If this has a loose connection it will be arcing it will just get to the point it fails completely .

This happens the same summer or winter temperature having no effect??

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

^^^Thanks, I will look at an auto and see how its starting circuit is wired. Something I never noticed.