Schump

Hey kids,
I have a 1992 xtra cab 4WD truck w/ 152.6k on it. Recently it's been a bit hard to start, and after a tuneup it got WORSE! Usually, it will start on the first try, but if i can't get it to go then, it has trouble starting on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th etc try. It did have a low lumpy idle at times but my friend told me that's probably due to low coolant level, and coolant not getting into the air preheating throttle body, or some actuator on the TB. He was right, coolant was a bit low. I recently ran 2 cans of AMSoil engine foam through the intake to clean out the intake and knock carbon off the valves if present. I went to have my 1st emissions test a couple weeks ago and the guy said, "no test, see visible smoke"
now it doesn't smoke anymore, but it doesn't like to start either! When i add some starter fluid, it'll fire right up. I replaced the plugs, cap, and rotor last week as well. Plugs looked to be the right color when I pulled them. I will check the fuel filter today since it's been a while since I replaced it, but it still has plenty of grunt once started. I also need to check the ignition timing i think since I have only ever adjusted it maybe once and i got the truck w/ 89k in 2001. Also, my friend said that it not starting when hot was the same trouble he had on his 4runner, a bad ignitor (mounted on the coil.) He said they're expensive as hell from the dealer, but still like $75 used.
Anyone have any suggestions as to where to start? I put a can of Techron injector cleaner in a full tank of gas, but it's only gone like 110 miles so far, so it hasn't had time to work yet.
I did listen to the left bank injectors with a socket extension, and all of them seem to be clicking away and not stuck open or shut.
My mileage isn't the greatest, of course that engine seems a bit inefficient from the factory, but I'd be lucky to get 250 miles out of a tank right now.
Thanks
I got the post on my original post under "electrical"...going to check out the fuel pump problem you mentioned.
Where can I buy a scanner for my '92 obd1 truck, or can i just build one?

kmcc78240

subscibed, Mine has trouble on warm starts as well, Going into the shop do see if they can figure something out. I have no codes on recent tune up as well. I'm thinkning mine has something do to with the coolant temp sensor or something along those lines. Because when it is cold (set for more then 2 hours cranks right over, but if I stop for 15 minutes I have toturn over a at least twice before it starts. I guess it might be a vapor lock or something I don't know good luck. I will let you know what they find though.

Elvota

Should get you reading the codes at least. A simple Haynes manual or probably a search online will help you define the codes you have and may point you in the direction of the problem.

Schump

cool, thanks, now i'll just take my haynes manual off the coffee table and see if i can find a trouble code list. if not in there, like you said, look online. now my friends work at a toyota dealership so i should be able to fanagle them into getting me parts at cost (i sold cars there for about 2 months last spring, how i met them, and one of them whose motorcycle i'm fixing just bought the same vintage 4runner for $3000 so he can buy it ignitor if that is the problem and claim it's for himself.

oh yeah, what's y'alls opinion on aftermarket ignition systems? i have yet to research prices, but just wondered what you thought of them.
thanks a lot for the help, think i was here 2 years ago when i did my timing belt, water pump, and cam seals in my garage after making an epic 2 week cross country journey back to mammoth that included riding the tail of the dragon in NC/TN, skiing a week for free @ copper in CO (stayed w/ my old boss for free in frisco, yee haw, brought him and his roommate a case of yuengling and made immediate friends w/ his roommate, esp since u can't get yuengling west of the Mississippi as far as i've seen. Then i skied for 1/2 price in aspen highlands and fanagled a free lift ticket from their ski school (i taught kids ski school in mammoth for 3 seasons) and rode snowmass on a blue bird day w/ a foot of fresh pow, and the most recockulous part of the trip, made it from the parking lot in aspen to a friend's couch in so cal in the desert by about 4am the next morning. MAN, i was beat, skiing all day hard and driving all night, knew i couldn't make the extra 3 hrs to go straight to mammoth, so i went south somewheres in Nevada after i called him and said he'd be getting up around the time i got there to go 2 work. 3600 miles total. and YES...I overpacked, check out my truck the night I left Blacksburg Va for Deals Gap, TN. had to fight to keep my leathers and other stuff out of my lap whilst going through kansas!

mt_goat

I don't think there are any cheap code readers out there for the older trucks, except the paper clip

How did you get a 1/2 price lift ticket at Aspen Highlands?

Schump

I think i found z problem! as my friend suggested, as well as tonight the flashing engine light said, "hey dumb ass, u gotta bad igniter!!!"
I put the ol' paper clip in the plug in place by the fuse box and got code 14...
looking in my trusty Haynes manual, wa la, it's an ignition circuit or the ignitor.
and my money is in the igniter.
other good news... my friend Dave said they cost like $75 used. ba humbug!
$75 used??? i got a used voltage regulator for my 914 from the bug shop for $12 and it still works...and the dealer only wants $97 for a new one.
so should i get the after market one at advance auto for $56 or splurge for the dealer part?
tomorrow she should be in shape to start w/o ether and then go get an emissions test done...only 4 days left till my tags expire!
thanks again for the help.
Schump
and any ideas as to what was in the diagnosis plug? looks like someone shoved aluminum polish down into all the plug holes and then the connectors rusted, it's a white pasty stuff with some rust color to it too.... that's what's on the blue shop rag on my bumper next to the dead mouse and mouse trap.
and NO, I'm not removing him, he's my travelin' companion!....been x country and probably 10k by now?....took it out of my friend's hadn't run in 4 years dodge RV two summers ago when i brought that beast back to life. i think his body fell off in Iowa or somewhere close when my buddy Jesse go big was driving my truck back home after i shattered my femur on my motorcycle last fall and flew home w/ the 'rents 2 recuperate.

Schump

Mountain Goat,
I got a nearly 1/2 price ticket cause i showed them my PSIA card (PLEASE stare, I'm AWESOME!!!) or backwards, Aholes In Stretch Pants card and they gave me the bro discount. (PSIA is actually Professional Ski Instructors' Association, but I like the other true anagrams or whatever they're called. it's a decent organization...but it's only a must cause it'll raise your base salary as an instructor at a mountain. usually $2/hr or $4/hr if u r level 2, maybe more if you've logged 5 seasons of lots of hours and are level 3...aka full cert, just depends on the mountain. i know i got a $2/hr raise when i got mine.
then getting the free pass the next day @ aspen was simple as making friends with some instructors i met on the mountain, they gave me their boss' phone # and she floated me a free pass. and since mammoth is part of intrawest, i could ski 5 days free at whistler (never did...Damn!!!, winter park, copper, snowshoe, the closest decent hill to me on the east coast in WV, and stratton and some more i've forgotten. Itrawest doesn't actually own the mtn, they're a real estate co that develops land into condos, villages, hotels, etc at the mountain so it becomes more blingiddby bling.
i think they kind of ruined mammoth, but that's what they call "progress"
shoot, Dave McCoy, the founder who's like 86 and best friends w/ warren miller still skis a decent amount sold 55 or so percent of stock in mammoth to starwood resorts for i think $365 MILLION last year. this or next season, they're giong to start flying in people from LA and Chicago to the little mammoth airport, they got the FAA's approval, but wanted to wait for more infrastructure (read: hotels and condos aka available beds) to be built, so they waited a couple years on that. well, that's what rusty gregory, the CEO of mammoth told me, anyhow....
time 4 some dinner, and work out my peg leg so i can get back on the planks come march!
man, i had to miss 700+ inches of pow @ mammoth last season since my PT was too hot!...long story, kind of...
so in summary, become a volunteer ski patrol, or teach on the weekends, there are definitely benefits, aside from having a really good time.

Elvota

You might want to triple check the ground points in relation to the ignitor and make sure everything is tightened down.

I had a loose bolt and bad ground once that caused all sorts of issues. Worth a check before you dole out the cash. Never know... might get lucky.

kmcc78240

Schump,
Who would have thought, just pulled the code to tell you what I got. Low and behold code 14, haha. Anyways, I think I would go with OEM parts. Look up strap22 on here. You get OEM stuff for way cheaper, here is his link www.toyotapartsales.com

mt_goat

Yeah X2 on the ground, just unbolt it and clean down to new shinny metal and bolt it back on.

(PLEASE stare, I'm AWESOME!!!) Pretty funny, I used to have a similar deal, it was a blue jacket with a yellow cross on it that would let me cut lift lines. I'd wear it even on my days off it was so cool. Did you happen to notice a memorial at the top of Aspen Highlands? 3 of my bros died in Highlands bowl and I never made it back to see it. I made it back in the summer once but the mountain manager wouldn't let me wheel up to see it and my wife couldn't hike 4000 vertical without me carrying her about 2000 of it.

Schump

mt goat,
are you guys referring to the 2 bolt places, aka the 2 phillips head screws that attach the ignitor to the coil, and the 2 10mm headed bolts that bolt the coil to the wheel well? i don't see any other place to check grounds. now, after installing my $50 junkyard ignitor, it got better. my advance had never been changed, and it was like 4 degrees too far, but now when it starts it seems like a coolant temp sensor problem or what my friend said caused him a problem, low coolant level not allowing coolant to flow through throttle body. i have thus far replaced these parts:
*original igniter with $50 junkyard part, not throwing codes anymore, but still not running right!
*all spark plugs
*cap and rotor (there was white stuff on the contacts, is this from the factory or from arcing? it looks like it was painted on by the aftermarket company that made my cap and rotor, but i don't know.
-i checked all the resistances of my plug wires. all AOK. highest was 17.5k ohms, and my haynes manual says anything under 25k is fine. i did replace the original plug wires years ago.
*fuel filter-it had a toyota fuel filter on it, and it's the 1st time i ever replaced it (at least i don't remember doing it before in the 5 years i've owned my truck.) this might have helped, cause there's about 1/2 the flow resistance in the new filter vs. old, found w/ my Approxamometer, aka putting my lips on the 2 filters and blowing through both...old one was DIRTY!
my truck is smoking a lot on startup, but it pretty much goes away quickly. from the color, looks like oil but i'm not low and it also smells a bit like unburnt fuel.
After I clean the grounds i mentioned for the igniter and coil, where do i go from here. my tags are now dead as i was supposed to pass VA emissions by yesterday. guy @ the emissions place told me "no need to do emissions test...look...visible smoke, i can't test you." he gave me a piece of paper and said i might be able to get a month extension on my tags, i'll find out if i go back to DMV and sit in line for like 3 hrs...ugh!
the engine still seems like it's missing a bit and the idle is really high when it starts up and then gets lumpy as hell, going from 500 rpm to 1000, or almost dying, then revving back. when i start it it usually idles cold at like 1600 or so rpm.
any more suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
i did the paper clip trip and it was throwing code 14, but now there are no codes stored. i did of course removed the EFI fuse for a minute to reset the codes, but the new ignitor hasn't thrown a code.
now sometimes i need to add a lot of starter fluid for it to start hot.
i think i'll test drive it tonight as i haven't since i finished all this work, but i need to get it back on the road reliably so i can quit borrowing my dad's tundra!
thanks again,
Dave
1992 xtra cab 4WD V6 forest green metallic truck-"Sluggo the Mule"
152,800 miles
burned 3/4 of a tank after adding chevron Techron to clean out the injectors too.
oh yeah, mt goat, i take it you were a ski patroller by the jacket. i don't remember a memorial up there, but i was there only for one day, end of january 2004. it was sick since it DUMPED all day, couldn't see crap, but got at least a foot of fresh and a free lift ticket to any aspen resort the next day, and had one of the best days of my season at Snowmass the next day.

mt_goat

Well I had acually forgotten how the 3.0 igniter was bolted on, I have a 3.4 now. But on the 3.4 it just has two bolts into the innerfender, and no distributor.

BG 44K is a better injector cleaner, might try some of that. How's your gas mileage?

We used to call Snowmass "slowmass" especially on powder days. Didn't you have to pole a lot? They may have some steeper runs now, I was there in the late 70's and early 80's before they openned up more of the mtn.

milowilli

Check the cold start injector on the intake manifold for proper operation..

Radyota

I second the cold start injector circuit. I have this problem occasionally with my Supra. It's the cold start injector sensor/time switch. If the trucks use the same kind of EFI system that the Supras use, it could work the same way. It's a separate coolant temp sensor than the computer uses, and it controls when the cold start injector is fired. If it goes bad, it makes the cold start injector fire on hot starts, making the engine run rich for 5-20 seconds, and it will probably run lumpy/crappy and smoke. On the Supras, if it goes bad it won't even set a diagnostic code, so it won't show up with the "check engine" light. The smell of unburned fuel at the tailpipe points towards the engine running rich.

The low coolant wouldn't mess up anything in the throttlebody, it's only to keep it from "icing" in the winter. I eliminated the coolant flowing thru the throttlebody on my Supra, and I run it all winter, and it hasn't changed a thing! (Still runs great!) So I doubt if that's the problem. The loss of coolant might be pointing towards a blown or failing head gasket. I hope the visible smoke the emissions tester sees isn't actually steam. It's usually a good idea to thoroughly warm up the engine before emissions testing, like taking a 1/2 hour drive right before testing. Drive it on a highway or freeway and get it hot so the cat. convertor is fully working. That should also take care of any "smoke" from startup.

As for the tune-up, when was the last time the throttle position sensor was adjusted? That should be done first before checking ignition timing, as it can affect the ability to get base timing. Also, an old oxygen sensor can get lazy over time and cause the engine to run rich with no code. They recommend replacing it every 60-80,000 miles. Also, with that mileage it would be adviseable to have the valve clearances checked/reshimmed if they've never been done. This should also be done every 60,000 miles.

Good luck, hope this helps and keep 'er running strong!

mfxsupervillain

Im with milowilli and radyota on this one. I had problems starting on my 90 4x4 and worked through all the angles that you did including the ecu. The cold start injector switch was the culprit. Make sure your cables are good also as dirty connections or frayed wire is a no no.

MUDN4R

i had problems with my igniter! came home from the local mud and washed the truck.. wouldnt start and then it would start and cut off right away and the check engine light would come on right before it would cut off (Igniter Code) ended up i had water in the connector!! also Schump your location says Va i didnt know we had emissions test

Schump

my gas mileage has always been CRAP SALAD!
i think it used to be about 17-18, i don't remember it ever being better, now i'm lucky to get 250 miles out of my 16 gallon tank. that BG stuff is expensive, but if "all else" fails, i'll give it a shot. my friend uses it at his shop, so he should be able to get me some at cost.
what kind of MPG should i expect from a 3VZE v6 4WD?
i'm going to go test drive mine now. it started when somewhat hot, but i'm not sure if it'll want to fire sans starter fluid when fully warmed up. and the idle is still dangerously low and lumpy as hell once it gets a bit of heat in it.
i did pull the cold start injector wire a couple times, and it affected how it's running, even when hot. what kind of test can i do to make sure it's working properly? I'll stethoscope it w/ a socket extension to make sure it's ticking along right, and i already cracked the banjo bolt to make sure i had fuel pressure in general a while ago.
thankx
Mudn4r,
some of VA has emissions tests. i'm only 20 minutes outside DC, and i think all of NOVA has to pass emissions. this is the 1st one i've had to pass since my truck was registered in blacksburg till now. i thought maybe all of VA would require it by now, but I guess not.

I haven't been able to see the thermo timer in the back of my engine that controls the cold start injector, but according to my haynes manual, it's way in the back and looks like it's under the upper intake manifold. If I figure out it's bad, will i have to pull my upper intake manifold to get it out (a REAL pain in the butt!)?
I'm going to check/adjust my throttle position sensor too, never been done. I have also never replaced my oxygen sensors, and don't think the original owner did. I can go through his receipts to check, but I don't think it's ever been replaced. Results will be posted, hopefully I can sort this &**$er out today.

Schump

ugh...
It now starts easily when cold, gotta give it a lot of gas to start when hot.
Computer isn't throwing any codes, so i guess this is a good thing since the $50 junkyard igniter fixed the dead old one. but....it's still being a bitch!
I'm sick of but I'm also sick of driving my dad's tundra....
i still need to go and check all the resistances of the TPS...I got one of them to check out ok, and i got infinite on the other i tried to check, but it's so hard to get probes to the contacts while navigating my hands, shop light, and meter around the intake manifold, that i don't know if i ever had 2 good contacts...
will check again later.
now here's the symptoms now.
when it starts, it smokes like a freight train on acceleration, this goes away after a while, but i could fill up my garage like a haunted house when i first started it. there is some black soot on the ground by the tail pipe...is this unburnt fuel from running rich or the motor telling me that i might need to put the '92-93 Camry heads on sooner than expected due to bad valve guides, or maybe the rings are tiring??? well, maybe next weekend it'll be running good enough to take it down to my buddy's shop and do a leak down on it. but I'm curious as to what is is.
now, when it warms up, it has trouble starting and sometimes, when it feels like it, idles well at about 1100rpm. then, sometimes, it gets mad at me and i have to keep my foot in it barely to keep it from stalling, and the idle hunts a bit. if i take my foot off the gas, it idles BARELY at like 200rpm or so, or might die, and i have the idle adjustment screw nearly all the way out. if it's doing this, idle is REALLY lumpy. when it warmed up, i could never hear the cold start injector clicking like the ones on the left cylinder head. this is good cause the thermo time sensor that drives the cold start injector goes for $144 at the dealership..YIKES! i also priced the O2 sensors, $145 each. ลลลล!...need to wait for my next paycheck.
but also, i could not hear the cold start injector firing when it was cold. I'll recheck it when it cools off and see if i didn't have my hand cupped tight enough to make a good stethoscope over my ear, but i could hear the 1st 2 front left cylinder head injectors clicking away well.
now, i tried pulling the pigtail off the cold start injector. if it was idling well and not hunting and nearly stalling 1st, it would react a bit, i'd have to give it some gas, but then it would calm back down in 15 seconds or so.
anyone w/ any insight, please help! i feel bout like this now
maybe lunch and a beer will help out, it has helped me working on my old porsche 914 in the past....
thanx for the help,
Dave

Schump

Well, more toiling in the garage has lead to the following...
i think I found the cold start injector thermo timer. i'll attach a pic. it looks close to the line drawing in the haynes manual, but not exactly as the other sensor, looking at it from the back, isn't next to it like in the drawing, but mostly behind it and a bit to the right. but according to the resistance readings in the manual (if I am checking the right sensor!) this one is done.
the manual spec's 30-50 ohms for anything below 50 F, and the amb temp in the garage is 51 so i figured close enough. My reading was 79.5 ohms, not quite w/in spec! no wonder i couldn't hear the cold start injector clicking when it's cold, i think the sensor is dead.
another ?: when I first start the truck, and romp on the gas pedal, it blows a good bit of brownish grey smoke out of the tail pipe. it likes to do it upon deceleration, and if it's the same as my 914, that pointed to worn out valve guides that let oil through when the motor is pulling vaccuum.
most all of the smoke is gone when it warms up, just a little bit of grey smoke when i let off the gas...hope it's not too much to make the emissions guy tell me to go home and fix it again.
btw, what i think is the thermo time switch read 80.5 ohms of resistance when the motor was at full temp.
once when the engine was cold, it nearly died, idlling and sounding like it was missing running barely fast enough to keep running. wierd! anyone have any ideas? but then, i gave it some gas, it came back to life, and then it idled well again.
following earlier posts, i did clean off the inner fender and the mounting bracket for the coil/igniter to ensure a good ground. i will go out and test drive it now as well as get the rest of the resistances for the TPS to see if i need to adjust it...never have before.

one more ?
i called to get prices on 02 sensors from the dealer. he asked which one, front or rear?...and he wanted $145 for each...RIPOFF!!!
now i could only find 1 under my truck, just before the cat sticking out of the top of the exhaust pipe. i could not see any in the manifold or cross over pipe. does my 3vze have 1 or 2 oxygen sensors?

thankx for the help guys,
Dave

timebandit

Some of those cold start injectors had an time switch override from the ECU. Haynes manual wont tell you this. The STJ circuit from the ECU.

On most TCCS engines, an alternate ground may be supplied to the cold start injector by the computer at the STJ terminal. Using inputs from the engine’s coolant temperature sensor, the computer can operate the cold start injector for up to three seconds regardless of the status of the timer switch. The maximum coolant temperature at which the computer will cycle on the cold start injector is 113?F. Above that temperature, the injector will not be energized by either the timer switch or computer.