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86-95 Trucks & 4Runners 2nd/3rd gen pickups, and 1st/2nd gen 4Runners with IFS

22re starting sound? Wonít start

Old 05-13-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by coastal View Post
... But if I can literally see the piston going up on a compression stroke, wouldn't that be TDC on compression ...
How do you know it's on a compression stroke when you see the piston going up? It could be on the exhaust stroke.

If you know that it's compression (by looking at the valves, for instance. Looking at the distributor will give you the wrong answer if the distributor is 180į out.), then you are at TDC (on compression) when the piston is at the top of the stroke. That SHOULD also show the timing mark on zero (unless you've got a failed harmonic balancer, relatively rare. Which is why you use a chopstick to VERIFY that the piston is at TDC when the timing mark on the crank points to zero.)

Melrose 4r's explanation of timing is good. It's worth mentioning that there is enough uncertainty in the setting of the distributor that you cannot set timing just by looking at the position of the rotor. You set it close visually, but you need a timing light to actually set base timing.

Last edited by scope103; 05-13-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 05-13-2019, 12:55 PM
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Would you hesitate to even try to get it running with compression that low on one cylinder?

Last edited by coastal; 05-13-2019 at 12:57 PM. Reason: OP updated their post
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Old 05-13-2019, 01:28 PM
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You really should check the compression hot, if comparing to FSM spec of 170 psi(iirc)
Sure go ahead and run it. It could have a broken compression ring or slightly burnt or maybe just too tight exhaust valve.
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by coastal View Post
Would you hesitate to even try to get it running with compression that low on one cylinder?
From an "I need transportation" stand point? Yeah it will run and get you back and forth. You will be lacking a significant percent of the potential power of course.

From an engineering stand point, you put the system under quite abit of stress having such unbalanced combustion.

From waaayyy over here and just based off the sound of the video and your compression numbers, there is a substantial and significant issue in that engine... My biggest concern is the "gnome with a hammer", it could be a rod bearing it could be a bend rod it could be a valve contacting the piston it could be a loose cooling fan nut. It's impossible to say from here, but it's in front of you which means you are the best person to figure out what is going on.
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:20 AM
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So I took the valve cover off. Set it so rocker on exhaust valve #1 was loose and pulley at 5*. Inserted rotor at 12, it rotated to #1 plug on distributor. Checked that I have spark (at least on #1, it was orange). A little smoother turn over but still bad rhythm, if that makes sense. So. Not sure where to go. If I have spark should I still check my igniter?

Side note, might have found one of the gnomes with a hammer. I noticed cylinder 3 valve was offset from the tappet, if Iím phrasing that right
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:23 AM
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Cylinder 3 exhaust valve

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Old 05-14-2019, 08:18 AM
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Having little or no experience stabbing a distributor, isn't a simple task to get right...
It sounds like your close... stop relying on the timing mark... it's easy to be off one tooth when you stab the dizzy...
Have someone help you by cranking the motor over as you turn the dizzy to see if it will smooth out and actually start...
IF your on TDC #1 and you stab the dizzy in the right spot, you should have some adjustment by turning the dizzy one way or the other to get the engine to turn over freely , (BACKFIRING is a sign of being "out of time").. if it doesn't.... then your still off a tooth. FORGET THE TIMING MARKS AND TIMING LIGHT till you get the timing close enough so the motor turns over with NO BINDING... NO BACKFIRING... (which means your getting fire, that's GOOD)
and will start... it may run a little rough... leave the lock down bolt on the dizzy loose enough so you can turn it to get the motor to smooth out... then check the marks then put a timing light on it...
Unless you've jumped time or the tensioner crapped out... which then it's a whole different problem...

Last edited by 87-4runner; 05-14-2019 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 05-15-2019, 10:43 AM
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Let us back up for a minute.

Is this vehicle your only vehicle?

Is the battery fully charged?

Unless the mechanical and ignition timing are off in such a way where there is combustion binding up the engine as it is being rotated by the starter and the battery is weak, it sounds like you have a mechanical failure inside of the engine. Ignition timing shouldn't affect how well an engine cranks over with the starter.

How does the engine sound if you unplug the igniter / coil assembly (thin wires going to the assembly, not the spark plug wires) and crank it over?

If it is not smooth, you have some bigger internal problem with your engine, unfortunately.

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Old 05-15-2019, 11:38 AM
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Hey guys. Thanks for all the input!
And no, it's not my only vehicle. It's on the street and I only have time to work on it before work at 8am and an hour here and there. Last try at cranking, I was at 12.46 volts, so think I'm good there, and pretty much charge after each session. I may very well have a mechanical issue. I'm numbingly prepared to just get a rebuilt longblock, but in the meantime trying to see if I can squeeze some miles out of it and learn about it before I go that route. I've only owned for 2 hours of it actually running, I wish I knew more about how it got to be such a turd, but I'm stuck with it now. PO is a young enlisted kid, and for what he's doing for us, I'm not going to hassle him into finding out.

When I broke down, there was oil slung all over the front of the engine. I couldn't tell the source, but have since suspected the front main seal, and it's not actively leaking since, so it seems it just happened under pressure. Didn't see water in it when I drained it, but actually it's still in my bucket so maybe I'll run a magnet through it. My plan was to clean it, get it running, add some dye and see where it's coming out. But doesn't work if it doesn't start.

After reading some posts, and considering the potential front main seal leak, I'm going to take a look at the harmonic balancer with respect to the cam, rockers and #1 piston to see if the crank itself has slipped. I have new plugs to try, and a loaner leak down tester otw. I'm going to try and get a good look in each cylinder when heads are at bottom to inspect for the suspicions.

I'll try what you mentioned old87yota, and let you know the results. Grasping at straws here.

Yotatechanobi, you are my only hope...
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:14 PM
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Cam versus Ignition, timing

There is a lot of talk about ignition timing going on here. Which I think is a wild goose chase.

There might have been some hints at the beginning indicating a "timing issue", we need to always be clear if we're talking valve&cam timing.

If it was bad cam timing all the cylinders would show a similar decrease in compression due to the piston being in the wrong place when the valves open and close.

You can some or most of the time notice the " suck" at the tail pipe when this is occurring, similar to a burnt exhaust valve.

It is also important to distinguish between "after fire" which is combustion occurring in the exhaust pipe, and "back fire" which is combustion happening in the intake system.

...
A quick simple test you might want to try is turning the crankshaft around a few times by hand with the spark plugs out and feeling and listening for anything out of sorts then repeating it with each plug in place (one plug in, three out) this is going to tell you the same thing the compression test did on one hand (it's much easier to turn with that "bad" cylinder plugged), but also you might hear see or feel that "tap" that had some of us concerned.. Remember not to turn it backwards as there is a chance to slip the timing chain due to the tensioner layout.
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:45 AM
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Welp. Not sure if I totally screwed up, but she gone. My theory on harmonic balancer slipping was right. It was about 10-15* past 0 tdc. I watched the piston reach complete peak compression and I adjusted the timing accordingly from there. It started and actually sounded fine. I didnít want to run it long so shut it down after 8-10 seconds. It kinda stumbled when it shut off. Now itís seized. Metal shavings on dipstick. Valves seem fine, although I know they would have been tight at that new tdc. I guess a new/rebuilt motor doesnít sound so bad after all?

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Old 05-16-2019, 03:59 AM
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You didnt cause that with ignition timing. Its very likely a rod bearing, which would have sounded awful and gave you trouble starting, or possibly timimg chain related. This thing was sick when you got it.
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:34 AM
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Well I do appreciate hearing that, I was thinking/hoping I didn't do it. Ya'll got a good ear, that's for sure. I got pretty excited when it started up.

I found a guy in Concord, NC who sells rebuilt long blocks for $950. Talked to him, he specializes in race engines and 22re, has a lot of great reviews, said, "me and my son eat, breathe and live motors", and gotta say I believe him. Bit of a hike for me, but best option I've seen short of looking for a used motor, but that didn't work out for me so well on this last one.
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Old 05-16-2019, 05:36 AM
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The option of rebuilding your engine might be your best option.... tear into it and see what it looks like...
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Old 05-16-2019, 07:25 AM
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Looking forward to the autopsy on this one. Like was mentioned, it was damaged when you got it fortunately it didn't throw a rod thru the block when you were trying to drive it home.

That much of and timing difference is pretty huge
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by coastal View Post
Well I do appreciate hearing that, I was thinking/hoping I didn't do it. Ya'll got a good ear, that's for sure. I got pretty excited when it started up.

I found a guy in Concord, NC who sells rebuilt long blocks for $950. Talked to him, he specializes in race engines and 22re, has a lot of great reviews, said, "me and my son eat, breathe and live motors", and gotta say I believe him. Bit of a hike for me, but best option I've seen short of looking for a used motor, but that didn't work out for me so well on this last one.
http://poteatsengines.com/services/

Good prices but I don't like all that crap in the warranty.
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Old 05-16-2019, 03:38 PM
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Heís in Kannapolis too, but different guy

https://www.concordengines.com/mobile/
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:43 AM
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Btw, hereís the clip I forgot I had of its last breath. It ran before this start, but was locked after. I suppose there arenít too many vids that capture that instant.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:12 AM
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Yeah.... not good.....

But you already knew that.

I look forward to see what happens next!

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