suprathepeg

WTF is goin on here? This is not a thread for people to argue the benefits of a 3.4 swap or for people to argue specificly what mods are going to bring the most power to dollar. This is me doing some market research prior to committing to production of parts that have already been tested to perform possitively. If your exploring other alternatives then please put that on another thread or somewhere like the regular forums where such discussions happen regularly, I show respect and don't hijack your threads and I ask the same of you. If you have a personal problem with me or what I'm doing then please keep it to the PM or review my product after completion.

This is not me trying to claim that these mods will bring you close to the performance of forced induction or Nitro etc. These are mods and I should make this clear for the 3.0 which is completely different in top end design to the 3.4. I personally am not at all interested at this time in any forced induction systems for the 3.0 untill someone makes a magical headgasket that can handle it. This is a list of parts that are designed to posatively effect performance and milage without reducing the lifespan of your motor.

Yes it has been proven that you can get power out of the 3.0 and as for the engine itself most of the restrictions are in the porting, intake and exhaust. Personally as I stated earlier these are not for somebody who has not already addressed the exhaust headers and piping on their rig. Also if your thinking of getting the heads P&P then you should at the same time open up these other parts to compliment. And finally if and when there is an open AFM product available it will compliment these parts as well as cams (although I have heard from some builders that the stock cams are not a proirity on these vehicles when building for power, and I'm not saying that they won't have a possitive effect either, I'll want to see both dyno results and efficiency #s before I endorse or sell them).

My goal with pricing is to make these mods affordable when compaired to other engine swap options but there is no way that they will be for the faint of heart, just can't do it. And don't expect to be bolting on 100HP either I want these parts to reflect performance, efficiency and dependability all attainable with the Toyota 3.0. Now onward. If anyone has anythign positive to add to this please do.

callmej75

my apologies

Weasy2k

Well i gotta jump in a bit here

The 3.4L and the 3.0L block are NOT the same inside....SAME SHAPE yes....inside is a totally different story, but I wont get into that as this is not the thread to do so...

The 3.0L suffers yes....however you can do everything you want to the head to try to make it breath...but....what allows the head to put air into the engine?
Cams.....
That is why the first step I have taken for the 3vz-e guys are cams, the first set "design" is done and about to be made to test in my 93 runner. These cams will be very mild and designed to pretty much be the "Why didn't Toyota put these in instead" cams.

However if there is demand i can get a batch of fairly aggressive cams made, that plus your head work can make something to look at as well!

Once again...the bottom end of a 3.0, 3.4L....2 different things....

One last thing...
Your comment about "not posting in here unless its positive"
If you run a business and are trying to sell somethig...ESSPECIALY on a forum...you cant just say that to people, you will get people who disagree and people who do. I know that because ever since i start the 5vz cam run i have been getting lots of positive replys, plus people who will challenge you. So sit back relax and continue proving points!

Silver_Truck

keep pluggin away at it, I'm interested. I'd rather have a 190hp NA 3.0 rather then then a trubocharged one with rediculous power that can't be used off road etc.

Weasy2k

What about a s/c?

I still give thumbs up for peopel who are putting effort into doing things like this for engines that get no lovin

Bumpin' Yota

Time out! The 22re has the SAME SIZE vafm as the 3vze, so OF COURSE it will do 150hp!! Remember HP is dictated by flow volume and flow velocity. I agree though - start at the vafm. I personally did the math. If you combine the total cross sectional area of the 6 runners they have about 35% more cross sectional area than the intake plenum's opening (of course there is about 8x the amount of surface area that the air charge is interacting with....) The Intake plenum's opening is about 3mm larger than the TB, and the TB is around 5.8sq in, the VAFM plate is only 2.25sq in at WOT. Mathematically your largest gains short of cams will be the VAFM followed by either the TB or the runners.

snap-on

ya what he said ^^^^^

but if you want to get all technicall about it, the amount of area you need is only proportional to how many cycinders you have trying to suck air in at any given time <cough 2 cough> so take the volume of that air they have to draw in and then work some fancy numbers with Burnuli's math to figure out what crossectional area you do need...

(id do it but not feeling like cruching fluids at the moment)

ahhh that brings back found memories of IC engines class... (ME436)

Bumpin' Yota

hey now, just because its turboed doesnt mean it cant be setup for off road use! Slap a smaller T3 on a 3vze and youll have tq and hp right in your wheeling rpm. This comes at the expense of top end flow.

Our 6.5LTD uses a GM4 which is a smaller T4 family of turbos, and for the engine (6.5L 16v with 3500rpm redline) it is quite insufficient for top end. Above 2800rpm the boost just falls off to about 4psi from the 7 it was at. However the amount of low end grunt that engine has below 1500rpm is absolutely ungodly. Our powerstroke and our cummins BOTH fall short when compared to that old engine in low end (below 1500rpm) off the line grunt. However both the powerstroke and the cummins leave the 6.5LTD in top end...and both have a little turbo lag, the chevy 6.5LTD does not and drives like a gasser on steriods...400tq at 1800 is a beautiful thing

Weasy2k

that is why i eidtied my post What do offroaders rev at anyway? 800rpm!? Small CT26 style turbos would really kick ass...

Toysrme

Well let's see. To start with:
Tony Leung's 392whp 1mz-fe made10-20 horsepower with his custom UIAC (Upper Intake Air Chamber. Toyota's name for the top half of the intake manifold). That's a peak 20 horsepower gain, on a 500bhp FI'ed 3.0L v6...

That's a 3.9% gain in peak power, and 1mz-fe's don't even make that much until they hit 4500rpm & run to 7000rpm with a broad powerband the 3vz-e does not have access too.

150bhp * 1.039 = 155.85bhp PEAK power at the very highest end of your rpm range. Unlike the car engine's, unless you go with some cams (Like weasy's) you're going to be stuck trying to make power at 3500-4500rpm to satisfy people. A new intake isn't going to be doing that by 4000rpm.


Yes. One of those N/A Toy v6's with around 250bhp on the stock bottom end would be mine...
Stock.

Did my own head work, along with countless other "small" mods. Including re-porting the entire UIAC & lower intake manifold (Which did next to nothing)

To


Hello small ported heads after SMT6 tuning, upgraded fuel system, and finding the optimal cam timing.








Ok, I don't care what DOA does. Neither does most people on his forum. The guy has proven to be unreliable to his own community, a jerk to myself, and many other 3.0L car engine owners, as well to people on this forum.
I don't trust him because of my own, and THIS FORUM's general experiences, and I don't believe he could make a 156 horsepower engine, out of a 150bhp engine you could fart in the intake & make 170bhp on it.

For the record... Any idiot can send heads to a machine shop to be worked on, install new EMS/ tweak what you have (advanced piggyback), put on headers, and slap in big cams on your 3.0L SOHC engine and make over 200bhp... Don't treat him like he's some god, or that he knows something everyone else doesn't.


If he really were smart, he'd give you guys a simple FE head conversion, and you'd make 200bhp @ 5200rpm / 204lb-ft @ 4400rpm, and more low down torque than the 3vz-e would ever possibly make without FI, n2o, or re-porting the heads to small ports.
You'd even wind up with more power than any stock 5vz-fe came out with...






You want MY opinion on how to make power on a 3vz-e? Homemadeturbo / Junkyard turbo. It's cheaper/no more expensive, you'll have everything you possibly want to run. Far more low end grunt, an instantly broad powerband, the air charge to run past stock cutoffs, as much power as you feel like running.





Want to make power N/A???
In order
1) Take the entire UIAC off and clean it.
A) If you are not subject to emessions, Throw the EGR pipe, EGR cooler, EGR controls off a cliff, block the intake, and exhaust manifold ports.
B) Fold a square piece of nylons (Pantyhose) over so it's double thick. Place on a new PCV valve, reinstall PCV vacuum hose, OR simply convert the PCV valve into a breather, like the opposite valve cover.
C) I forget if the 3vz-e has a breather on the other valve cover going to pre TB intake. If so, do the same for it. Even better. Delete it entirely if you install a small filter on it after the pantyhose.
2) Buy a set of weasy's upcoming 3vz-e cams
3) Advanced Piggyback (SMT)
4) Port & polish the heads, with a valve job. OS valves if you want
5) Buy a small fuel injector. I'm going to lay down some stuff for you guys to think about with the rough amount of power I think you'll be adding/trying to achieve.
*The 3vz-e is a 3 groups of 2 injectors in batch fire. It is not sequential. This has proven problematic on other Toyota engine's this is used on when attempting to add lots of power. The fuel distribution is not even across the fuel rails, and worse - is not even across the air chamber in the plenum.
* 200cc stock injectors, with a 41psi stock FPR. The 41psi FPR actually runs 33-37psi depending on vacuum. Maximum flow seen will be 190cc.
190cc injectors will supply 205bhp worth of fuel @ 37psi @ 90% duration.
200cc injectors will supply 216bhp worth of fuel @ 41psi @ 90% duration.
This is NOT enough fuel for modified N/A 3vz-fe, it is CERTAINLY not enough fuel for a 3vz-e having to deal with batch firing injectors.
* I can't speak for the 3vz-e's fuel pump, the 3vz-fe's also does not tolerate much when it comes to extra power. The 3vz-e shouldn't have the same problems producing much less power, but I would be conscious of this paragraph when trying to pass stock 3vz-fe power levels on a 3vz-e.
6) Headers
7)
A) 2* 2.75" to 3" silicon reducer, 3" piece of metal pipe (Whatever you want). Drill & mount a barb for the idle bypass hose. Doesn't matter how you do it... Weld, braze, JB Weld. Whatever floats your boat (Welding looks the best). I don't care & neither will the engine. The metal pipe should be cut only long enough to fit the couplers on, and the idle bypass supply.
B) The "large" size denso AFM. You'll now be running out of spec for the AFM - wouldn't matter before, it was tuned on the piggyback, at this point you could actually have some restriction on the stock AFM.

This will accomplish not only upgrading the AFM to a slightly larger size, but will improve throttle response several times over as the AFM door will be closer to the throttle plate - increasing it's sensitivity. Peak power? Not a lot, Throttle response - much better.

I've always said it, and I'll say it again. If a 2vz-fe doesn't immediately need a new AFM, is less displacement, more RPM, more power across more rpm, a 3vz-e doesn't immediately need one.

Get a 3vz-e to produce 3vz-fe power numbers FIRST, THEN do the swap. You do it the other way around, you're once again stuck in single digit gains land?





Think of your AFM as the 5vz-fe's originally too small throttlebody gasket... It looked like it would be a huge difference to the naked eye, but just didn't do that much when it was swapped out.


OK.
Last dyno I saw (and it was on yotatech) headers + CAI on a 3vz-e gave 10whp over stock... Granted, intakes don't do anything much one way, or another on N/A stock Toyota v6's. So I'll give a full 10whp for headers. 1mz-fe's make 10whp off their now unavailable Bosal headers. Yall have got the wrong impression if you're treating a 12 hourspower gain as something to write home about. I always feel bad for you guys with the 3vz-e, that's why I try to help out if I can, but if a 12 horsepower gain is the best you can do, you've got as much pity as I can possibly give.
Most Honda manifolds dyno 10-12whp.

The simple fact, proven by the 1mz-fe + TRD charger, and a few 1mz-fe's + Bosal headers, is that the 3.0L manifolds are not sent by the devil. You 3vz-e's have a hard time with the crossover pipe, but it's not "ruining all the fun".

Head porting helps *every* Toyota engine it's been done on. Porting, Polishing & a good valve job has proven to be the single biggest N/A gain on every engine it's been done on so far. 3vz-e's (Supply your own dyno) 3vz-fe's, 1mz-fe's. 3s/5s-fe heads, 5vz-fe's (Supply your own).










You guys need to stop looking at the rest of the engine & realize you're screwed by two major things.
1) Your Cams
2) The cams you have, on a blah SOHC head
Yall need to lay the blame where the blame lies. ON THE CAMS. Not on every single small restrictive aspect of the engine.





Yes an intake is going to help peak power a small amount, Yes a larger throttlebody can help peak power a small amount, Yes headers give double digit gains - just like for us cars, our y-pipe gives double digit gains. The exhaust itself is not a killer, neither is the engine.




The fundamental flaw with this thread is that hopes are up because you're going to be given the chance to combine several single digit gain items at one time... Please realize that it's just not going to add up to anything significant, and there-hence-forth, you shouldn't be paying that much for it in the first place.











suprathepeg if you want something positive to come out of this...
The plenum runners are the right size and shape. They provide more flow than the engine is capable of injesting - even modified... Without sacrificing charge velicoty. The problem is that the plenum chamber itself is too small for good high rpm use, or lots of boost to build up for anyone that later goes FI.
Most Japanese Intake Manifolds have the exact same problem.

You want to make the intake manifold lots better - cut the entire Air chamber off, and design your own. For example from your 3.0L car buddy (That's me).
AL-LA turn this part:

Into this:



1) The air chamber should extend PAST the runners (Even on your style, this will improve charge flow to both the end runners which will always starve when places close to a wall.)
2) The throttle body pipe should be angled into the plenum to some degree.

Toysrme

AFA the tb... Nearly every NA-T import v6 I know uses a stock 70mm throttlebody, or upgrades to one. That's what you guys have stock. Yes! For once everyone ELSE is killing to have what yall ahve to begin with.
OOOOOO American v8's come with small TB's.
What did this 5.0L Cobra owner upgrade to? Yep, 70mm tb.

In conclutions about the TB here's my formula. Replacing Toyota TB's = BS for power adding.

Toysrme

Lastly. Until someone with a 3vz-e buys a piggyback, then tunes the fuel to make peak N/A power. THEN ugprades to the next size AFM, and tunes it's fuel to make peak N/A power.

Nobody has any biz saying the AFM you have is too small for what you make, or what the basic upgrades you guys have been using all this time. Conciquently I shouldn't say it isn't too small... But I bring it up, becuase it NEEDS to be brought up.

Just because it's not the biggest Toyota part doesn't mean it's hurting the low rpm - low power output engine it's put on. Regardless if it's a big 470lb 3.0L, or a 7L engine.

suprathepeg

Well thats nice Toysrme. All of what your saying is very valid and I'm not in any way trying to sell people parts that are going to under perform as per statement. What I see is a market, especially people with the 2nd gen 4runners, I don't really think all of the people want their rig to turn more then 170-180 HP which is close to the limit of the stock ecu anyhow, what they want is to run 33s and still be able to pass on the freeway safely and pull the hills in a healthy way.

I have to say that I'm really stunned at the people who are flaming this post, But you do bring up some valid points as I said. One of the really important ones is the way that DOA has treated their customer base and their market. As a result there is a void in the 3.0 market. And so myself and others are trying to bring products to the market that the average guy/gal can easily apply themselves in a weekend or 2. I doubt that there are a lot of people who see their trucks the way a tuner guy sees his car. For myself blackbeauty is a exercise in building a DD/weekend wheeler, those are the guys that I'm trying to reach and I don't pity any of them because they want a dependable powerplant that they can handle I don't see any 4runners tearing up the 1/4 anytime soon what ever engine you run.

Now on to the heads, CAMS may or may not be the godsend claimed as I said earlier I'm waiting to see on those. Its a safe bet that you can get approx. 20-30 potential HP with intake, exhaust, and some head work. Nothing too extream for the shady tree mechanic and those aren't terrible gains and they won't all be above 4000.

FE heads are still a dream and one of my favorite, The 5vz is a very good engine and a great swap, immediatly you get close to 200 HP with headers and there is potential for much much more in there if you want it. Problem #1 still is cost. Where I live i can't get complete engine, harness and ECU for less then $2000USD so I'm looking at minimum $3000 to install a used engine. I'd love to swap over to the 3vzfe heads but there are some serious problems not the least of which is fitting it into the truck's engine bay, then electronics, then comes intake, on and on it goes. Someone may be able to do it but I think the timing has already passed on making a swap kit and the cost will likely excede that of a 5vz and it won't be any easier, so your back to square one.

Either you take your motor and rebuild it as is or you do it for more power, or you lay out for a motor swap.

The first parts that will be available will be the OS TB and the heads. I worked out a working estimate on the TB it will be $220USD core + shipping. Core charge will be $50. If there are any people interested let me know and I'll move this to the for sale section

Weasy2k

Keep up the work man...just get some dyno numbers to back the work you do up...it helps to show off what things can do.

Also once again those comments are not to FLAME you as you are taking it but its just opinions....flaming would be direct comments to YOU....and its just in general what is being done.

Toysrme

That's fine. I think 180bhp is a good target for SOHC owners to shoot for. My point is that a throttlebody, and intake manifold is not even going to make that 170bhp in the first place. Maybe 160bhp at peak rpms, if the stock cams cooperate & you get lucky on some accoustic charging through the intake.



Like Weasy said, atleast get yourself some dyno runs when you get done. If it works... Then see about selling it to the car guys. They'd have to swap their own TPS's on, but you know. No big deal.

Weasy2k

The stock ecu has no real limit...piggybacks can assist if need be Unless your talking about injectors then yea 200cc injectors dont do much. Maybe upgrade using the 248cc injectors from the 5vz

suprathepeg

I don't ever remember saying that, I said that I am working on a package to include performance heads as well. I have seen some good numbers on intake mods for the 3.0 though and yes most are for WOT but thats where you want it on a 4x4 anyhow.

The idea is to take head P&P and match it with the intake all the way to the TB, This is taking proven engine mods, matching them and makeing them available to the average shady tree.



If Weasy's cams work out they will be a good combo as well as larger injectors 200hp should be an easy accomplishment.

Toysrme

Sell people ported & polished heads with a 3, or 5 angle valve job. Maybe an O.S. valve option. That'll do some real good. A throttlebody and intake manifolds. Blah!
Port matching a throttlebody & intake manifold. Port matching has always been nothing more than a "feel good" mod. It's like using a K&N filter. Ya. Maybe 1bhp peak power VS a new generic air filter by the time you bounce an engine off it's fuel & ignition cut. You say you know what you're doing & that those two mods are "proven performance". I think you couldn't prove the IM & TB gained 10 horsepower on any N/A Toyota v6 if your life depended on it.

If u wanna do it go for it, but don't use a real mod like headwork as a crutch for 90-95% of the power gain your "system" is going to make. Prove to people the throttlebody & intake manifolds do something.



"To each, His own". I'm sure a lot of people will buy anything they can (Look at all the headers that don't fit!). There just isn't anything else out there for a 3vz-e.









Which is a great idea for you... Buy yourself a Chinese TIG for $200, have rods & gas for under $600 out the door. Then build people Weld-el manifolds that work 100% & make them a y-pipe.


Now THAT would sell & give some good gains. There's much more profit margin in it for you also... You could also beat node to the 3vz-e turbo market... Just a thouht!

Weasy2k

I say go for it man, lets see what can happen with these mods....maybe offer something to the market out there....

rockota

Dude - really, what is your damage? None of this is necessary.