midiwall

So...

I'm curious as to what's done in a tranny valve body upgrade. My real curiosity is what it is that costs $475 (IPT) or $680 from Level 10.

The only thing I've found in a search is a mention of springs being replaced, so this cost seems high considering there's my time to pull the valve body, a bunch of tranny fluid, express shipping out and back, my time to put it back together, and that you have to be without your rig for a good amount of time.


Transdude, I'm not picking on you (or anyone from the Level 10 folks) it's more of that I think I'm missing the tangible. If I'm looking to spend $$$ on a bumper, shocks, wheels, tires, etc. then I can hold it in my hand and determine if I think the item is worth the cost.

Is the cost of doing this based on us paying back the research costs?

It's "okay" if so... I just want to know how this is priced out.

data

Check out Gadgets site. He might have some info under the tranny section..


http://www.gadgetonline.com/Transmission.htm

Mad Chemist

Mark,

From what I gathered (from Gadget's site), it's a means of avoiding thrashing the tranny due to the increased HP from a supercharger. Despite the tuning you've done, do you think you're in a range where you have to be worried?

midiwall

Oh that's right! You don't know about the S/C and the nitrous system I added!















(kidding)

Good point David. I've been through Gadget's site many times, as well as searching the forum. I understand what the end result of doing the upgrade is - I understand that it increases the fluid pressure in the tranny thus allowing for quicker/firmer shifts. The plates are also held together with more force for less slippage, and I think this is where the ability to handle more horsepower comes from.

My issue is not understanding what I'm paying upwards of $600 for (475 + express shipping two ways + tranny fluid). My only clue to this was a message that Chris (ravencr) once left here talking about IPT. He infers that the changes to the VB were springs and a larger jet to allow more fluid pressure. If that's what's going on for $600, then I'm really confused as to why there isn't a $100 kit that I can install myself. Again, _if_ that's all there is, then it seems that all the labor costs are on my side, so I can't see there being $400 worth of labor charges involved ($475-75).


Past that, here's my line of thinking as to why I'm asking this now...

I know that at some point I'll cave in and get a S/C - probably this summer. But, I'll hold true to my word and not do it unless I can afford to do the all the mods that are required to make it work right - i.e., fuel and the VB upgrade.

I understand the fuel issues, and I don't have a problem adding the cost of a fuel pump and injectors into my real cash outlay. So it's the cost of the VB that I'm trying to get my head around. I understand the requirement to have it done, I don't understand why it costs so much.


Thanks man.

Mad Chemist

[QUOTE=midiwall]Oh that's right! You don't know about the S/C and the nitrous system I added!


You had me going there for a second! I was wondering if you had watched the Fast and Furious last night on the television and gotten a little too excited...

Sounds like you've got everything thought out pretty well. I'm starting to feel like I haven't been spending enough money on mods lately, I better get my act together! BTW- Jessica and I *should* be moving into a rental house in a couple of weeks, so the garage is open to you if you need a space to work.

midiwall

HAHAAHHA!!!


Thanks man... I can help you undo that winch when I'm over.

(then of course you can help me lift the bumper back into place so I don't have to stress my back like you did! )

tomstin

Hopefully Transdude will weight in on this topic, but here is my 2 cents. The valve body itself is modified to permit increased fluid pressures and along with new springs, shortens the time it takes to shift, thus reducing the wear on the clutch packs. I had mine done at Level 10 about a year ago before we found out about Transdude's shop. I ended up removing the Level 10 springs because the shifts were a bit too firm for my daily driver.

With the supercharger installed, you will really notice the slow, soft shifts of the A/T. This slow shift increases clutch wear dramatically. With the V/B upgrade, there is no lag, quick, crisp shifts, therefore less wear and tear on the A/T. Add a ATF cooler and synthetic ATF and you will protect your investment.

It's fun to chirp the tires from first to second...and sometimes second to third!

Dr. Zhivago

If you had bought a manual transmission to begin with, you wouldn't have needed to spend $600 to be able to chirp the tires from First to Second...


G

MTL_4runner

Hey Mark,

I hope John sets us straight but here is what I got from someone else who did the upgrade already and he mentioned that yes, there were some regulator springs that were replaced. So yes, if that was all there was I agree it should be cheaper. I believe there was also some machining done to the valve body itself...which is why you need to send the entire valvebody to him. I think there were 3 fluid passages which need to be drilled out to 9/32" to allow for the crisper shifts. There are also a bazillion little checkballs in the valvebody so be very careful when you take it out. When he sends it back to you, he will put them all back in place with some assembly lube to prevent them from dropping out during the install.

Part of the value john offers as well is that he personally stands behind his work so if anything goes wrong, you are not on your own and you know the machining was done correctly. Not worth saving some bucks...only to screw up an $800 valvebody. He can also help if the performance was not what you expected, other problems with shifting or etc occur. At the price of about $400 I think it is still money well spent unless you really know what you are doing.

Just my thoughts on it tho.

midiwall

Thanks Jamie... For the first time in the year I've been looking at this, the cost is making sense.

MTL_4runner

I would love to document exactly what was done for posterity.
Glad I could help anyway.

midiwall

I just PM'd John and asked him to come comment. Hopefully we'll finally know what really goes on!

I certainly don't want him to expose any trade secrets, just a better undestanding of time and parts.

MTL_4runner

Great minds think alike!!! I PM'd him too.

Anyway, I am not trying to kill his business at all (in fact I want to see just the opposite!!!), just to have him explain to us where the costs are allocated (ie labor / parts and what is being replaced, modified, etc). I know myself that I always like to know exactly what is done to my truck so if I need to troubleshoot it, I am well informed (that's just the engineer in me!). The shift kits have been around for a long time (no secrets there) and doing these mods can be applied to most vehicles with auto transmissions (obviously not exactly the same for each tranny) except the CVT style ones. The tranny is a basic system of band clamps and a fluid coupler (way simplified there!).

Even if I did know how to do all the mods and had the parts and equipment I would still prefer to have him do the work and guarantee it for me. More of a piece of mind than anything else for me anyway. I used to do the same and go to the dealer to have all the work done on my truck....they screwed it up too many times so now I don't trust them.....so now I have to do all my own maintenance again. Trust is tough to come by especially in the auto repair biz and to me that is the real value added there!!!

Transdude

Hi All,

It seems that the questions which are being asked are why does a modified valve body cost what it does? And what is done?

As far as what physically is done to a valve body to modify it, I'm not willing to go into much specific detail. Let's suffice it to say that there is a cleaning and inspection process, recalibration of some of the spring rates, resizing of some orifices, modification to certain hydraulic circuits, and in some models there is a revision in valve spool diameters.

Regarding the costs of a valve body modification, I will make no bones about the fact that much of the cost is associated with the amount of hours of development that were needed, and still needs to be done as new variations arise.

There were many long days where a valve body needed to be removed 6 and 7 times before we were able to get the results that we were looking for. Unfortunately, mathematical calculations and the application of hydraulic theory only gets you in the ball park when it comes to this.

Also, keep in mind that each valve body that we do is customized to the specific vehicle that it is being installed into, and to an extent, the preferences of the customer.

In addition to this, there is the direct labor cost that is involved, those of you who have installed your own shift kits will probably agree that it can be a little time consuming.

Please understand that we are not selling a bag of springs and an instruction sheet, we are selling our technology and the results that the finished product will produce.

-John

midiwall

Cool.

Thanks John, that's what I wnated to know. Like I said way up top, there was a post here a while back that made it sound like the upgrade was just a couple of springs.

I fully understand the milling costs, and the right to recoup your time investment.


You'll get my money as soon as I can get it together.

Mark

MTL_4runner

Thanks for the clarification.....future customer here too!

4-RUNNIN' FREAK

What about another group buy?

Transdude

Where exactly are you located? I see that you say 10 minutes from Manhatten in NJ.

-John

4-RUNNIN' FREAK

In NNJ.

4-RUNNIN' FREAK

If TRANSDUDE can offer a group buy, are there any takers out there right now besides me?