Hard/Long Start When Cold
03-21-2011, 04:24 PM
#21
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hi,
am having the same problems...but i have a brand new battery and the engine cranks well....but it is a long and hard start also from a cold one...
do you know where the fuel pump is? if this is the culprit, shoudl we experience idling or runing problems also?
There seems to be hoards of issues like these in the different fora but i have not seen a concrete solution yet...
thanks.
am having the same problems...but i have a brand new battery and the engine cranks well....but it is a long and hard start also from a cold one...
do you know where the fuel pump is? if this is the culprit, shoudl we experience idling or runing problems also?
There seems to be hoards of issues like these in the different fora but i have not seen a concrete solution yet...
thanks.
Last edited by lekiboy; 03-21-2011 at 04:31 PM.
03-22-2011, 06:32 AM
#22
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Yep, I just got a brand new battery. It was the first thing I replaced. Like I said, I live in San Diego, so its not really "cold" outside. "When my truck has been sitting for an extended period of time", would be a better term. 
Its pretty annoying how difficult it is to test the fuel pressure in these trucks.
It almost feels like the A/F ratio is off in the beginning because the engine must turn over 1-2 times completely before it fires up. I need to test the cam/crank shaft sensors and wish I could do a fuel pump test somehow....
I did read something about a check valve for the return line or something for the fuel?
Its pretty annoying how difficult it is to test the fuel pressure in these trucks.
It almost feels like the A/F ratio is off in the beginning because the engine must turn over 1-2 times completely before it fires up. I need to test the cam/crank shaft sensors and wish I could do a fuel pump test somehow....
I did read something about a check valve for the return line or something for the fuel?
03-22-2011, 05:49 PM
#23
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Baja,
For more thought here.
In the morning, turn the key 3 or 4 times over to prime the fuel pump, then turn the key all the way over to crank the engine. If it starts right up, I'd say the pump is the culprit. If there is a check valve, it is probably on the pump itself, but I don't think there is one. Can't say 100% either way.
If no go still, I'd say look at the IAC again. One of my mother's past condo renters two years ago had a 99 Camry that would not start when cold. She took it to a Toyota independent shop and they replaced the IAC with a new one. No more cold starts. It is not the same car but the same automaker so who knows. A link follows to give you an idea:
http://www.camryforums.com/forum/gen...ld-start-1153/
For more thought here.
In the morning, turn the key 3 or 4 times over to prime the fuel pump, then turn the key all the way over to crank the engine. If it starts right up, I'd say the pump is the culprit. If there is a check valve, it is probably on the pump itself, but I don't think there is one. Can't say 100% either way.
If no go still, I'd say look at the IAC again. One of my mother's past condo renters two years ago had a 99 Camry that would not start when cold. She took it to a Toyota independent shop and they replaced the IAC with a new one. No more cold starts. It is not the same car but the same automaker so who knows. A link follows to give you an idea:
http://www.camryforums.com/forum/gen...ld-start-1153/
03-23-2011, 09:26 AM
#24
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Not to rob the thread, but Baja I think the last poster may be on to something there. you turn it over a few times quickly that shuld prime the fp.
Like I said though my pressure was shooting up to 43 psi in less than a second of cranking it over. I know we may have different issues, so it may be your fuel pump. I'm guessing mine may be the IAC I cleaned the throttle body with out taking it of the plenum. I'm guessing all the sludge from the cleaning dumped down into the Iac valve. Not sure if that would ruin it or not, but its getting replaced. Should be coming today and I will post the results.
With your problem if it sits for a full 24 will it fire right up? Mine will sometimes if it sits a full 24 + it will occasionally fire first crank. strange. When warm, after shutting it down it will fire right up within the first 10- 15 minutes after shutting it down.
Like I said though my pressure was shooting up to 43 psi in less than a second of cranking it over. I know we may have different issues, so it may be your fuel pump. I'm guessing mine may be the IAC I cleaned the throttle body with out taking it of the plenum. I'm guessing all the sludge from the cleaning dumped down into the Iac valve. Not sure if that would ruin it or not, but its getting replaced. Should be coming today and I will post the results.
With your problem if it sits for a full 24 will it fire right up? Mine will sometimes if it sits a full 24 + it will occasionally fire first crank. strange. When warm, after shutting it down it will fire right up within the first 10- 15 minutes after shutting it down.
05-27-2011, 01:18 PM
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Ok, I have the same problem. Cold start cranking is ridiculous. What I usually end up doing is cranking it for 3-4 seconds, then stopping. When I hit it the second time, it starts right up.
Seems to me like fuel pressure issue, or a spark/timing issue.
I have a brand new OEM starter, new battery, good plugs, etc. Doesn't matter if it's 0 degrees or 80 degrees...the first start after it's sat for a long time it does this. Frustrating.
Seems to me like fuel pressure issue, or a spark/timing issue.
I have a brand new OEM starter, new battery, good plugs, etc. Doesn't matter if it's 0 degrees or 80 degrees...the first start after it's sat for a long time it does this. Frustrating.
05-27-2011, 04:15 PM
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I doubt my issue is fuel pressure, I replaced the pump and the pressure regulator. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting spark. I can smell unburnt gas when it is hard to start. The weird thing is w/mine is if I let it sit for a full 24 hours 9 times out of 10 it will fire first crank of the starter.
I'm thinking crank shaft postion sensor, camshaft sensor, ignitor, ecm or some sort of short. I've tested the voltage on the tps, replaced engine coolant temp sensor, MAF sensor, the problem is it could be a bunch of things.
Quick silver did this start all of a sudden for you? mine started after the engine rebuild. So in my case it could be a number of things. If yours started after replacing something you might be able to trace it back that way. Did you jump the post on the battery by accident? Heard the voltage from that can make its way all the way to the ecm.
Hope you get your issue figured out, Ya frustrating to say the least.
I'm thinking crank shaft postion sensor, camshaft sensor, ignitor, ecm or some sort of short. I've tested the voltage on the tps, replaced engine coolant temp sensor, MAF sensor, the problem is it could be a bunch of things.
Quick silver did this start all of a sudden for you? mine started after the engine rebuild. So in my case it could be a number of things. If yours started after replacing something you might be able to trace it back that way. Did you jump the post on the battery by accident? Heard the voltage from that can make its way all the way to the ecm.
Hope you get your issue figured out, Ya frustrating to say the least.
05-27-2011, 07:31 PM
#28
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[quote=fishingorwishing;51728833]I doubt my issue is fuel pressure, I replaced the pump and the pressure regulator. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting spark. I can smell unburnt gas when it is hard to start. The weird thing is w/mine is if I let it sit for a full 24 hours 9 times out of 10 it will fire first crank of the starter.
Did you check the fuel pressure first before replacing the regulator and especially the pump, which the latter could not have been easy IMO.
For you, I'd check all the grounds in the engine bay and work backwards up each side of the wire harness. Also check the EFI relay for a possible problem. No CEL I take it.
Since Baja initially posted, I spoke with a friend's brother with a 00' Tacoma, with 200,000 + miles and he had to replace his igniter due to some electrical problem. He may have had a CEL to point his mechanic in the right direction.
I wonder if Baja has made any headway with his hard starting?
Did you check the fuel pressure first before replacing the regulator and especially the pump, which the latter could not have been easy IMO.
For you, I'd check all the grounds in the engine bay and work backwards up each side of the wire harness. Also check the EFI relay for a possible problem. No CEL I take it.
Since Baja initially posted, I spoke with a friend's brother with a 00' Tacoma, with 200,000 + miles and he had to replace his igniter due to some electrical problem. He may have had a CEL to point his mechanic in the right direction.
I wonder if Baja has made any headway with his hard starting?
05-28-2011, 09:44 AM
#29
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[QUOTE=J2F42C;51728907]
I was reading a similar thread over at TTORA and the poster tried everything. Problem turned out to be that engine ground on the bracket by the diagnostic plug. So this bolded part is very good advice.
I doubt my issue is fuel pressure, I replaced the pump and the pressure regulator. I'm pretty sure I'm not getting spark. I can smell unburnt gas when it is hard to start. The weird thing is w/mine is if I let it sit for a full 24 hours 9 times out of 10 it will fire first crank of the starter.
Did you check the fuel pressure first before replacing the regulator and especially the pump, which the latter could not have been easy IMO.
For you, I'd check all the grounds in the engine bay and work backwards up each side of the wire harness. Also check the EFI relay for a possible problem. No CEL I take it.
Since Baja initially posted, I spoke with a friend's brother with a 00' Tacoma, with 200,000 + miles and he had to replace his igniter due to some electrical problem. He may have had a CEL to point his mechanic in the right direction.
I wonder if Baja has made any headway with his hard starting?
Did you check the fuel pressure first before replacing the regulator and especially the pump, which the latter could not have been easy IMO.
For you, I'd check all the grounds in the engine bay and work backwards up each side of the wire harness. Also check the EFI relay for a possible problem. No CEL I take it.
Since Baja initially posted, I spoke with a friend's brother with a 00' Tacoma, with 200,000 + miles and he had to replace his igniter due to some electrical problem. He may have had a CEL to point his mechanic in the right direction.
I wonder if Baja has made any headway with his hard starting?
05-30-2011, 12:45 PM
#30
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In response to J2f42c. Yes I did test fuel pressure, before this It was shooting up to 43 psi in a split second of cranking it over everytime even if it had the hard to start issue. The thing I was questioning was that the psi dropped to 11 psi when shutting the key off. I posted about it here of ttora, got no response. This led me to believe check valve in pump was bad. I figured with how many miles the truck had it would be a good item to replace.
As far as the efi relay I did have some issue's with that. I was getting no power to the ecm. I followed the procedure in the fsm. Started trying to track short it ended up being a loose connection in the main fuse box.
Like I said I believe mine is a issue of no spark, or very weak spark on start up. Been a bit since I've done really heavy wiring schematic research. Anyone now what circuits control spark, where I could start looking for a short?
The durk do you remember if the ground was just unbolted, or was a short in the ground? do you remember the title of that post? I did have a time where I forgot that ground, It did start briefly but died. wondering if this could've shorted a wire. Yet now that I think about it it did this long before this ground was forgotten.
Anyone know if their is a way to test the igniter?
As far as the efi relay I did have some issue's with that. I was getting no power to the ecm. I followed the procedure in the fsm. Started trying to track short it ended up being a loose connection in the main fuse box.
Like I said I believe mine is a issue of no spark, or very weak spark on start up. Been a bit since I've done really heavy wiring schematic research. Anyone now what circuits control spark, where I could start looking for a short?
The durk do you remember if the ground was just unbolted, or was a short in the ground? do you remember the title of that post? I did have a time where I forgot that ground, It did start briefly but died. wondering if this could've shorted a wire. Yet now that I think about it it did this long before this ground was forgotten.
Anyone know if their is a way to test the igniter?
05-30-2011, 01:24 PM
#31
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The durk do you remember if the ground was just unbolted, or was a short in the ground? do you remember the title of that post? I did have a time where I forgot that ground, It did start briefly but died. wondering if this could've shorted a wire. Yet now that I think about it it did this long before this ground was forgotten.
05-30-2011, 01:59 PM
#32
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This thread might be helpful
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...shtml#FuelPump
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...shtml#FuelPump
05-30-2011, 02:06 PM
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Before knowing how to replace the starter contacts, I was getting the click, click and decided to check both the EFI relay and the starter per the FSM. Both tested fine. I'd look around in the main fuse box area for any more loose connections.
How is spark?
Here is a link to give you an idea on what the igniter does (begin on page 9). Even though it is not for the 5vz engine, it should give you a ballpark idea.
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf
How is spark?
Here is a link to give you an idea on what the igniter does (begin on page 9). Even though it is not for the 5vz engine, it should give you a ballpark idea.
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf
06-02-2011, 09:47 PM
#34
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Thanks for the Ideas scavngr J2f42c. Scavngr I read that post and it would totally explain the issue I'm having except for I have tested fuel pressure when the motor is completely cold at start up, warm and just shut down at start up, warm and sat for an hour at start up(which is the time when this issue is the worst). The fuel pressure shot to 43 psi everytime as within a split second of turning the key over. Something I noticed about this reading though is the sta signal goes through the cor. One thing was noticed when I tested voltage on the inputs of the ecm. when I put the tester probes in the sta
signal the hard to start issue could not be reproduced. Cold/hot/or in between. I thought this was a connection issue at the ecm. I didn't see anything wrong with this. Also I couldn't really tell where the sta signal came from or where it goes from the schematics. I'm pretty sure it advances timing for cold starts, correct me if I'm wrong. So I don't think its a fuel pump/pump circutry problem. It may be a issue with the cor and the secondary winding or with the wiring on the sta signal. I need to do more research into this. But been busy.
J2f42c This article was a bit to difficult to follow. I'm like a kindergartner when it comes to the electricity and wiring. But from what I see the ignitor advances timing based on signals from the ecm. so it may well be the ignitor. Been a whille since I've done some deep digging into this issue. I do remember not having any juice into the ignitor when the key was in the on position, not sure if that was normal or not. If I get a chance I'm going to go back through the wiring schematics and the pinout values and refresh on whats going on with all this.
Its just strange how this issue is temperature dependant, like its the ect sensor or IAT sensor but both those inputs were dead on with what the computer is reading. The only other thing I can think of is the circuitry in one of the various sensors is worn out, still doesn't make since how it will fire up when its warm unless its not advancing or retarding timing like its supposed to do. Like I said when I have this issue I can smell unburnt gas out the exhaust. I was going to try a timing light but don't currently have access to one, thinking the inline spark testor will tell me if I'm getting spark and or its getting spark just not in time. will try and get this tested this weekend. Thanks a ton for the directions to go in.
signal the hard to start issue could not be reproduced. Cold/hot/or in between. I thought this was a connection issue at the ecm. I didn't see anything wrong with this. Also I couldn't really tell where the sta signal came from or where it goes from the schematics. I'm pretty sure it advances timing for cold starts, correct me if I'm wrong. So I don't think its a fuel pump/pump circutry problem. It may be a issue with the cor and the secondary winding or with the wiring on the sta signal. I need to do more research into this. But been busy.
J2f42c This article was a bit to difficult to follow. I'm like a kindergartner when it comes to the electricity and wiring. But from what I see the ignitor advances timing based on signals from the ecm. so it may well be the ignitor. Been a whille since I've done some deep digging into this issue. I do remember not having any juice into the ignitor when the key was in the on position, not sure if that was normal or not. If I get a chance I'm going to go back through the wiring schematics and the pinout values and refresh on whats going on with all this.
Its just strange how this issue is temperature dependant, like its the ect sensor or IAT sensor but both those inputs were dead on with what the computer is reading. The only other thing I can think of is the circuitry in one of the various sensors is worn out, still doesn't make since how it will fire up when its warm unless its not advancing or retarding timing like its supposed to do. Like I said when I have this issue I can smell unburnt gas out the exhaust. I was going to try a timing light but don't currently have access to one, thinking the inline spark testor will tell me if I'm getting spark and or its getting spark just not in time. will try and get this tested this weekend. Thanks a ton for the directions to go in.
06-06-2011, 01:44 PM
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Ok, well now mine is getting worse, and it doesn't seem dependent on temperature any more....it's more dependent on how long the truck has been sitting.
I'm guessing it's a fuel pressure issue, probably a leaking injector, because I get a fuel smell in the exhaust sometimes right after startup.
I'm guessing it's a fuel pressure issue, probably a leaking injector, because I get a fuel smell in the exhaust sometimes right after startup.
10-18-2011, 10:20 AM
#37
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Not sure if anyone got this resolved, but it sounds like the same issue I have had with my 94 4cyl. Just talked to a Toyota mechanic this weekend and he said it sounded like the cold start injector. Here's a link I found with some info on that. I gotta check mine out and get it straight before it gets cold. It just rolls and rolls then starts when cold. Cranks up great when the weather is warm. Maybe this will help out. http://home.earthlink.net/~twopapa/toyefi.htm#timer
10-10-2012, 10:35 PM
#39
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Any resolution?
BajaRunner: You put the last post on this 'bout a year ago, but didn't tell us if there was a resolution. I've got an identical problem in my 2.4L '99 Tacoma. Left it with the Toy shop who looked at the ecm and crank sensor all day and came up with nada. They want another day and another $100 to test fuel pressure.
10-11-2012, 02:59 AM
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Heh, just got an email notification for this thread. K so I checked everything over a year ago now and haven't done anything since. See my thread:
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f2/c...estion-209244/
A Toyota mechanic looked at that post and said the cps signal is considered too low if it's under 2 volts. As I mentioned in the post, previous CPS's I've tested were over 2 volts so I'm not surprised. The only thing I can do at this point is check the relative location of the sensor to the timing teeth. There should be a .7mm - 1mm gap between the magnet and the teeth. I use megasquirt on my VW so I'm familiar with this stuff.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/...Miss_Tooth.htm
I'm waiting until I change the timing belt to look into this. 154k miles and still running strong. I try to think of the slow start as an "Oil Priming" feature that toyota intended.
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f2/c...estion-209244/
A Toyota mechanic looked at that post and said the cps signal is considered too low if it's under 2 volts. As I mentioned in the post, previous CPS's I've tested were over 2 volts so I'm not surprised. The only thing I can do at this point is check the relative location of the sensor to the timing teeth. There should be a .7mm - 1mm gap between the magnet and the teeth. I use megasquirt on my VW so I'm familiar with this stuff.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/...Miss_Tooth.htm
I'm waiting until I change the timing belt to look into this. 154k miles and still running strong. I try to think of the slow start as an "Oil Priming" feature that toyota intended.
