Feeler: 3.4L TURBO manifold group buy?
11-24-2005, 11:16 AM
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Feeler: 3.4L TURBO manifold group buy?
This week I have been working on another 5VZ Turbo swap into an MR2. I am welding up two more sets of single turbo manifolds with T4 flanges ETC (two motors worth). This got me thinking, every V6 swap I have done has been turbocharged. I wonder how many people would be interested in putting a turbo on their trucks.
So, If I had a "kit" available for the 3.4L how many people (Given good quality pics etc) would buy one today. The kit would include replacement manifolds, possibly a turbo and perhaps even a downpipe. Of course it would require a battery relocation since the turbo would sit up high near the battery and the intake would be exactly where the battery sits. This would help avoid water ingestion (for you off road guys). The kit would be designed as a non intercooled setup running 7 psi but could easily be intercooled with some more pipe.
What would you be willing to pay for a kit with the eventual potential of just above 300bhp and full boost available at ~2800 RPMs? Im trying to estimate if volume production would make these affordable. Im looking for lots of input here
So, If I had a "kit" available for the 3.4L how many people (Given good quality pics etc) would buy one today. The kit would include replacement manifolds, possibly a turbo and perhaps even a downpipe. Of course it would require a battery relocation since the turbo would sit up high near the battery and the intake would be exactly where the battery sits. This would help avoid water ingestion (for you off road guys). The kit would be designed as a non intercooled setup running 7 psi but could easily be intercooled with some more pipe.
What would you be willing to pay for a kit with the eventual potential of just above 300bhp and full boost available at ~2800 RPMs? Im trying to estimate if volume production would make these affordable. Im looking for lots of input here
Last edited by node; 11-24-2005 at 11:27 AM.
11-24-2005, 12:02 PM
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While I would have the manifolds available by themselves, I have several turbos that I would be able to offer with a kit.
For example, the prooven CT-26 toyota supra turbo. Used or rebuilt.
Or the popular TO4E upgrade.
I have lots of these in stock at MR2guru so using them would be ideal for a kit. What do you guys think? I like the idea of theToyota name on the turbo.
For example, the prooven CT-26 toyota supra turbo. Used or rebuilt.
Or the popular TO4E upgrade.
I have lots of these in stock at MR2guru so using them would be ideal for a kit. What do you guys think? I like the idea of theToyota name on the turbo.
11-24-2005, 08:40 PM
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Im working on my first turbo 3.0 3VZ soon. I could produce a 3.0 version since the engines arent all that different. I was under the impression that the stock computer didnt handlle the boost as well as the 5VZ does. How much supercharged boost can the 3.0 handle on the stock ECU and injectors?
11-24-2005, 09:17 PM
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please educate me:
whats the difference between a Supercharger and Turbo ?
whats easier on the motor ?
whats gives more power ?
whats easier or cheaper to install ?
do you have to run Premium fiel with the Turbo ?
about how much would the Turbo cost ?
and,
"about" how much more power over stock will this have ?
etc. etc. etc.
whats the difference between a Supercharger and Turbo ?
whats easier on the motor ?
whats gives more power ?
whats easier or cheaper to install ?
do you have to run Premium fiel with the Turbo ?
about how much would the Turbo cost ?
and,
"about" how much more power over stock will this have ?
etc. etc. etc.
Last edited by Ric; 11-24-2005 at 09:24 PM.
11-24-2005, 09:20 PM
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The auto transmission on the 5VZ would have no noteable influence on the install. The manifold mainly sits in the stock location. The system will run over the back of the engine just like it does on the stock system. It would feed forward instead of down like the stock pipes do. I may reverse the fow on the passenger side manifold so that there is only one path for the exhaust gasses (similar to the Nissan VQ30 300zx). This all depends on how many people are interested though. The more I feel people want the kit, the more time I will invest in making a clean setup.
I have already spent the money developing the flanges (header, turbo, and downpipe) for my MR2 swaps, so thats already done. The parts are sitting here in stacks just waiting to be fabbed up, either for trucks or MR2 swaps. I have built many one off setups before but, this would be mass produced on a jig. There simply isnt enough demand from the camry, celica and MR2 guys for 3.4L kits. But, all you guys with rigs may just justify a few weeks developement
I have already spent the money developing the flanges (header, turbo, and downpipe) for my MR2 swaps, so thats already done. The parts are sitting here in stacks just waiting to be fabbed up, either for trucks or MR2 swaps. I have built many one off setups before but, this would be mass produced on a jig. There simply isnt enough demand from the camry, celica and MR2 guys for 3.4L kits. But, all you guys with rigs may just justify a few weeks developement
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11-24-2005, 10:51 PM
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whats the difference between a Supercharger and Turbo ?
Turbos run much hotter since they are powered by the exhaust. In this application the ECU actually doesent know there is a differencec between the two.
whats easier on the motor ?
The turbo uses waste energy to spin so there is no direct drag on the pully system to run it.
whats gives more power ?
Because there is no drag on the engine turbos (if sized correctly) typically make slightly more HP per pound of boost. You dont have the instantanious responce of the supercharger though. Basically, you trade instant torque for more total HP
whats easier or cheaper to install ?
TURBO is less costly without a doubt. Unless you find a very good deal on a used supercharger. Again this is a trade off. Installing a turbo requires more work and perhaps fabrication depending on what is included.
do you have to run Premium fiel with the Turbo ?
Absolutely, its just like a supercharger. I would also reccomend 1 step colder spark plugs.
about how much would the Turbo cost ?
Depends on the turbo. Junk yard turbos can be found for very little. Supra A turbos from the 3.0L MK3 supra are available for well below $300 including the wastegate actuator and oil lines.
and, "about" how much more power over stock will this have ?
I had about 260 out of my last setup but that was with an intercooler running very mild boost. With the correct supporting mods there is no reason that this kit couldent WELL beyond that. 300 would be attainable with fuel mods and an intercooler.
Turbos run much hotter since they are powered by the exhaust. In this application the ECU actually doesent know there is a differencec between the two.
whats easier on the motor ?
The turbo uses waste energy to spin so there is no direct drag on the pully system to run it.
whats gives more power ?
Because there is no drag on the engine turbos (if sized correctly) typically make slightly more HP per pound of boost. You dont have the instantanious responce of the supercharger though. Basically, you trade instant torque for more total HP
whats easier or cheaper to install ?
TURBO is less costly without a doubt. Unless you find a very good deal on a used supercharger. Again this is a trade off. Installing a turbo requires more work and perhaps fabrication depending on what is included.
do you have to run Premium fiel with the Turbo ?
Absolutely, its just like a supercharger. I would also reccomend 1 step colder spark plugs.
about how much would the Turbo cost ?
Depends on the turbo. Junk yard turbos can be found for very little. Supra A turbos from the 3.0L MK3 supra are available for well below $300 including the wastegate actuator and oil lines.
and, "about" how much more power over stock will this have ?
I had about 260 out of my last setup but that was with an intercooler running very mild boost. With the correct supporting mods there is no reason that this kit couldent WELL beyond that. 300 would be attainable with fuel mods and an intercooler.
Last edited by node; 11-24-2005 at 10:53 PM.
11-24-2005, 11:12 PM
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i'd be interested, but not fully committed until i see a little more detail and pics. i dont know much about turbos, so some edjumacation is definitely in order. and thanks for responding to ric's questions 
oh yeah, it would have to have:
- bolt on/off w/o fabrication
- options (like intercoolers, etc)
- tech specs, install instructions ,etc
bob
oh yeah, it would have to have:
- bolt on/off w/o fabrication
- options (like intercoolers, etc)
- tech specs, install instructions ,etc
bob
Last edited by Bob_98SR5; 11-24-2005 at 11:14 PM.
11-24-2005, 11:18 PM
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i must say, this is pretty sweet, but im like the others and dont know a lot...what kind of risks would there be installing a turbo? you mentioned it runs much hotter than a supercharger? how does this affect other parts of the vehicle?
as bob mentioned, i like the idea of bolt on/off so its removable in case of the need to return to stock
Last edited by garrett1478; 11-24-2005 at 11:48 PM.
11-24-2005, 11:52 PM
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If I put a kit together everything will be bolt on with the exception of the oil pan return. There is a possibility of using the tapped portion of the block where the other dipstick fitting goes as a return for the oil supply so that would be a simple plug and play thing too.. For the kit, I would do a wrightup and also a video much the same as I did for this V6 swap http://www.mr2board.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1467
As far a price goes, a full kit would be well less than a new TRD supercharger by itself. I cant be too exact because I dont know how many people are interested yet. I can tell you that I already have used Ct-26 - A turbos available for $250 +/- depending on mileage with fittings and wastegate actuators. My MR2 manifolds sell for around $350 but the truck version will require more materials and labor so expect a price just beyond $400 using some of your existing parts (again prices decrease with volume). The downpipes are roughly $200 and you will need to see an exhaust shop to have them fitted to your exhaust system. You should be able to keep the stock catylist system intact (I need to look closer at this though). Hoses, oil lines and fittings will likely cost at least another $200. So we could have a complete kit for around US $1200 give or take a hundred.
The system will be 100% compatible with the stock ECU both manual transmission and auto. I have tested the auto ECU to 8psi but would not go beyond that since the injectors cant really handle the flow requirements at 8 psi.
As far a price goes, a full kit would be well less than a new TRD supercharger by itself. I cant be too exact because I dont know how many people are interested yet. I can tell you that I already have used Ct-26 - A turbos available for $250 +/- depending on mileage with fittings and wastegate actuators. My MR2 manifolds sell for around $350 but the truck version will require more materials and labor so expect a price just beyond $400 using some of your existing parts (again prices decrease with volume). The downpipes are roughly $200 and you will need to see an exhaust shop to have them fitted to your exhaust system. You should be able to keep the stock catylist system intact (I need to look closer at this though). Hoses, oil lines and fittings will likely cost at least another $200. So we could have a complete kit for around US $1200 give or take a hundred.
The system will be 100% compatible with the stock ECU both manual transmission and auto. I have tested the auto ECU to 8psi but would not go beyond that since the injectors cant really handle the flow requirements at 8 psi.
Last edited by node; 11-25-2005 at 12:00 AM.
11-25-2005, 02:50 AM
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Node, 3vz-e ecu is actually pretty easy to work with. All the OBD-I ECU's are dreams with piggybacks. (I got 680's to run "OK" on a 3vz-e & 720's on my 3vz-fe)
(Open loop / cloosed loop OL/CL)
Because they don't use fuel trim in OL, they can't change OL, and it's closed loop not only is not as sensative - but it is easily defeated - it won't suffer from the problems OBD-II does. & has more advantages than even most smart people realize AFA tuning "big dumb changes". LoL!
Guys, questions like "how much boost", or "how much power" are going to fall under an irrelevant, or unanswerable answer the way most people ask the questions. So I'd like to take this opportunity to stomp them now so they don't get out of hand flooding node with questions. (No offince, common questions, that's why I'm shooting them in the foot before they're are bunches of them)
1) power is a direct function of the mass of the charge the engine can inhale - not what pressure it's at. Pressure is important (later on) but extremely mis-understood & mostly irrelevant when you're talking power between setups.
2) power production is entirly open ended. It could be anything you want to make it, because you can sling anything on you want slung on (that will fit within reason). As with #1 your mileage is going to varry widly based off what you choose & how you run it. While one compressor may move 50 horsepower worth of air @ 30psi, another may make 15,000 @ 5psi.
Power is an unanswerable question - without a specific question asked. Don't go crazy asking about power output until you've read a few basic forced induction guides (turbo, supercharger - anything helps - just google a few! Takes 5 min to read & understand the majority of the basics.)
That being said CT-26's are large node. Two supra CT-26's would wind up being well over 600bhp @ 10psi on any of the car dohc v6's. Most likely well over 500bhp @ just 5psi.
Node I think you should just cop out & grab your generic t3 flanges & weld them on. You can size them down to 42/48's, up to 60/48, 60/63 & super 60/63. Or even go t3/t04e hybrid (avoid t04b like the plauge - ancient things - nasty blaaaaah). t3's are really cheap too. (Not that my new ct-26 off ebay isn't in a dirty - but mint condition & $66 LoL!)
I've done the math a billion times for the 3.0L v6's (3vzfe / 1mzfe)
That t3 flange list when you go twin turbo sports everything between 260bhp - 440bhp stock t3's, & 700bhp for a T04E-60. That's just 1 bar of boost (14.7psi). Assuming the grunt & turbine side to spool the turbos to a good capacity, and flow that amount of exhaust.
I just think t3's would give a waaaaay better fit in most regards. (Sizing, compatibility, avalibility, price, part & misc fittings avalibility.)
(Open loop / cloosed loop OL/CL)
Because they don't use fuel trim in OL, they can't change OL, and it's closed loop not only is not as sensative - but it is easily defeated - it won't suffer from the problems OBD-II does. & has more advantages than even most smart people realize AFA tuning "big dumb changes". LoL!
Guys, questions like "how much boost", or "how much power" are going to fall under an irrelevant, or unanswerable answer the way most people ask the questions. So I'd like to take this opportunity to stomp them now so they don't get out of hand flooding node with questions. (No offince, common questions, that's why I'm shooting them in the foot before they're are bunches of them)
1) power is a direct function of the mass of the charge the engine can inhale - not what pressure it's at. Pressure is important (later on) but extremely mis-understood & mostly irrelevant when you're talking power between setups.
2) power production is entirly open ended. It could be anything you want to make it, because you can sling anything on you want slung on (that will fit within reason). As with #1 your mileage is going to varry widly based off what you choose & how you run it. While one compressor may move 50 horsepower worth of air @ 30psi, another may make 15,000 @ 5psi.
Power is an unanswerable question - without a specific question asked. Don't go crazy asking about power output until you've read a few basic forced induction guides (turbo, supercharger - anything helps - just google a few! Takes 5 min to read & understand the majority of the basics.)
That being said CT-26's are large node. Two supra CT-26's would wind up being well over 600bhp @ 10psi on any of the car dohc v6's. Most likely well over 500bhp @ just 5psi.
Node I think you should just cop out & grab your generic t3 flanges & weld them on. You can size them down to 42/48's, up to 60/48, 60/63 & super 60/63. Or even go t3/t04e hybrid (avoid t04b like the plauge - ancient things - nasty blaaaaah). t3's are really cheap too. (Not that my new ct-26 off ebay isn't in a dirty - but mint condition & $66 LoL!)
I've done the math a billion times for the 3.0L v6's (3vzfe / 1mzfe)
That t3 flange list when you go twin turbo sports everything between 260bhp - 440bhp stock t3's, & 700bhp for a T04E-60. That's just 1 bar of boost (14.7psi). Assuming the grunt & turbine side to spool the turbos to a good capacity, and flow that amount of exhaust.
I just think t3's would give a waaaaay better fit in most regards. (Sizing, compatibility, avalibility, price, part & misc fittings avalibility.)
Last edited by Toysrme; 11-25-2005 at 02:52 AM.
11-25-2005, 05:10 AM
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Node, it seems as though you have been doing this for a while and it has been fun to see you hammer out a great setup for your MR2. You are certainly perking my interest on a turbo kit too, but I wanted to ask how a turbo will affect torque vs HP. On my vehicle I am really after more torque for quicker accels, decent passing power on the highway (when needed) and up hills and hopefully something that won't completely kill my gas mileage at cruise speed. Keeping in mind these are going in trucks not cars.
So given that scenario, would you suggest that I be steering more towards a turbo kit or a TRD supercharger?
Any issues with running turbos in very cold temps?
I see -40 almost every winter up here.
Another suggestion, most people will have trouble with doing alot of fabbing so may I suggest that you sell all exhaust manifolds etc prefabbed if possible so people can chose to buy or make as needed. It would also be a HUGE plus to make sure the system is compatible with the stock ECU and injectors without leanout/detonation issues. I am probably not alone when I say I am not looking for the max power this motor could make, rather just to give it a little kick in the tail when I need it. I would probably lean towards a quick spooling turbo since I don't need max power, but I want it to approximate a S/C as best I could. I love that turbo sound too!
......I still can't get over how cheap those turbos are!
So given that scenario, would you suggest that I be steering more towards a turbo kit or a TRD supercharger?
Any issues with running turbos in very cold temps?
I see -40 almost every winter up here.
Another suggestion, most people will have trouble with doing alot of fabbing so may I suggest that you sell all exhaust manifolds etc prefabbed if possible so people can chose to buy or make as needed. It would also be a HUGE plus to make sure the system is compatible with the stock ECU and injectors without leanout/detonation issues. I am probably not alone when I say I am not looking for the max power this motor could make, rather just to give it a little kick in the tail when I need it. I would probably lean towards a quick spooling turbo since I don't need max power, but I want it to approximate a S/C as best I could. I love that turbo sound too!
......I still can't get over how cheap those turbos are!
Last edited by MTL_4runner; 11-25-2005 at 05:23 AM.
11-25-2005, 05:13 AM
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MTL_4runner,
thank you,,
thats what i was trying to get at, and thats what i need..
thank you,,
I wanted to ask how a turbo will affect torque vs HP. On my vehicle I am really after more torque for quicker accels, decent passing power on the highway (when needed) and up hills
11-25-2005, 08:36 AM
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If Node actually got into production a single turbo unit, that would be incredible.
Non-intercooled? That would fix the problem with swapping out motors for more power, and everyone could stick to the hearty 3vz they are used to.
You could be a very popular guy Node, but im sure it would take alot of work to get there. Interested to see how, if anything, it turns out. Stay with us amigo
Non-intercooled? That would fix the problem with swapping out motors for more power, and everyone could stick to the hearty 3vz they are used to.
You could be a very popular guy Node, but im sure it would take alot of work to get there. Interested to see how, if anything, it turns out. Stay with us amigo
11-25-2005, 09:14 AM
#18
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For you 3.0L guys I have only seen one turbo'd before:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...threadid=39571
Someone had made a turbo kit for the 3.4L but the turbo placement was horrible.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...threadid=39571
Someone had made a turbo kit for the 3.4L but the turbo placement was horrible.
Last edited by MTL_4runner; 11-25-2005 at 09:18 AM.
11-25-2005, 09:41 AM
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For those of you looking for a bolt-on / bolt-off affair, I just don't think it's going to happen. If node can figure out the oil return line thing (without tapping into the oil pan) you will still have to saw off your crossover pipe to get the old manifolds off. I guess all I am saying is be prepared NOT to be able to go back to stock - unless you get some headers or find another crossover somewhere.
There is just no way to get that stupid crossover off unless you pull the engine or use a sawzall on it. Something to keep in mind.
Sounds like a cool idea node! I hope some people jump on board.
There is just no way to get that stupid crossover off unless you pull the engine or use a sawzall on it. Something to keep in mind.
Sounds like a cool idea node! I hope some people jump on board.
11-25-2005, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by yota5VZFE
OK guys, let's talk about long term reliability of this turbo kit vs. the TRD supercharger + 7th injector kit. I know that TRD has a pretty good warranty on the supercharger and the injector kit if they are installed by a Toyota dealer. Now, here is the big question, what is the warranty of this turbo kit ? Let's say if I install this turbo kit and it becomes defective in 2 to 3 years from the date that it is installed, can you provide a FREE replacement ? also, will this turbo kit cause engine damage to my 5VZFE over the long term ? How reliable is this turbo kit vs. the TRD supercharger ?
Turbos are reliable and the CT26's are amazing 150-200k+ km turbos!
Node has make some great leaps in playing aroudn wiht turbos ont eh 5vz and if i wasnt doing soemthing myself i would buy a couple...(i have lots of 5vz's coming in
)
