icerunner

This is a great article I found online by Norris Schleeter a Master Tech out of Denver, and wanted to pass it around.

A GREAT READ:
Norris Schletter is the author for the article below
"Second opinion, the oil sludge problem"

http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm


Truely, many hard fought emotional battles have been fought on-line in the "oil war". So I'm not trying to start any "oil" conflict here...
Yet, I have not heard of any Mobil 1 lubricated engine failures from sludge formation instances...at all (or from other synthetic brand oils for that matter) .

I personally run Mobil 1 synthetic oil at 5000 to 7000 intervals with an oversized M1 Filter...I'm begining to wonder how many older engines are affected by this "sludging issue"? My thinking is that it is pretty common where conventional oil is used and where people contunually go over Oil change Intervals... even by a few thousand miles... my guess is that conventional oil will likely hold up for a good 5K but any longer than that it really starts to break down...

here is the article:
http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm


(edit note: text removed at Mr. Schleeter's request. Visit his web site, it is very informative.)

ARB1977

I know the older Camery, Senia 4 cylinder engines had really bad sludging issues and maybe the 3.0L engine as well. Take a peak under your oil cap at the valves and see what you find.

CTRJ

We were seeing a ton of 99-03 Lexus RX300, ES300, Toyota Camry and Avalon sludge engines this year. I would say that 90% of them were from people who don't change their oil or don't change it often.

My 4Runner has 153k on it and I change the oil every 3-5k miles. I had the valve covers off earlier this year to change the gaskets and found that the engine is nice and clean. I use a Toyota filter and the oil we have at the dealership (I think it's Unical 76).

I guess the moral of the story is to change the oil!

Victor

Is he saying 3000 mile change interval on synthetic? That is excessive if you ask me. I guess if I owned a Highlander or Sienna then I'd consider it but I've done an oil sample after 10K on Mobil1 and the stuff was in great shape.

icerunner

Victor,
I aggree with you, I think one can go longer than 3K with synthetics. 3K O.C.I.'s at $6 a quart seems excessive and expensive... There has been A LOT of testing and research with synthetic oils. I'd say if someone is real worried about it, a 5K OCI would be absolutly fine, I personally think I'm ok at 5 to 7 K O.C.I's (with synthetics)

ANY other opinions on this??

86tuning

Check your oil color and smell, change it before it gets black... you may very well see 5k or 8k miles between changes.

On my own cars, running synthetic oils, we spin a new filter on at 3k or 6 months, and run the oil for close to 10k before changing it.

On well maintained vehicles, longer oil intervals on synthetics are fine. The key is to do the oil change before the oil wears out.

On questionable vehicles (like the Toyota 1MZ camry/sienna/es300 engines) a shorter interval is a good idea.

frodin1

I never really thought there was a diference between oils. Ten years ago we were working on a little old mans Chevy Caprice."I think". When we pulled of the valve covers there was big chunks of what could only be described as charcoal in it. This guy was an advid Penzoil user and refused to have anything else put in his motor. It was at this point that I seriously change my outlook on oils. I should mention too, that his car only had 85K miles on it and the reason he brought it in was because it was running badly. Geeze I wonder why?

killa b

i still belive regular oil is good for todays engines and that synthetic oils are to expensive. even if i ran synyhentic i would still change it every 3000 miles.

i just changed my oil and it has a brown tint to it and does that mean anything bad or just regular look to it sometimes. espically when driving off road through dirt and dust.

icerunner

Truely, many hard fought emotional battles have been fought on-line in the "oil war". So I'm not trying to start any "oil" conflict here...

and You are right about it costing more, at least upfront....
6 quarts of M1 at costco $28.99 and $10 for a M1 filter = a $40 Oil change.

I think that in the long run SYN will save money. As I live in chicago and For the following reasons I use synthetic oil.
1) Super cold winters and SYN oil will "pour free" and quickly, even in sub zero temperatures. Try to pour conventional oil (dino juice)on a sub zero day... pours like molassis or a very thick syrup... Remember 90% of ALL engine wear occurs at start-up...If oil dosent move freely in your engine during colder temps ..well, you get the picture.
2) super hot and humid summers SYNs do not burn up as quick M1 is good untill 450 F, at much higher temperatures is when synthetics start to break down. I think conventional oils begin to break down at 300 to 350 F...
3) a minimum of 5,000 to 6,ooo mile Oil Change intervals saves me money and time....I think

All and All, I spend a little more, yet change the oil less, and In my opinion, at least where i live, the synthetic oil protects much better
Especially at 30F Below ZERO, or on a 95 F summer day...

"truely, to each their own"

BajaRunner

I think synthetics are good. First off.

The problem that seems to slip peoples minds is that the dirt/debris that is collected in 3k syn oil is the SAME as 3k dyno oil. Contaminates will not just dissapear if you're using syn.

So, thats just my .02. Yes, maybe, if you're running dyno oil 5k-10k miles you'll get more sludge then if you were running 5k-10k syn, but, you're still just an idiot for not changing the oil!

icerunner

Good point about the crud and dirt actually IN THE OIL... Maybe thats why I'm leaning towards 5K O.C.I's now...

I NEED OTHER OPINIONS

What is the MAX O.C.I you would go with SYN oil?

GVOLCRunner

Wow. Its amazing how as smart as people we are.. the number one myth with cars is oil.

First, if your oil isnt brown or black when you change it.. I would be worried about the oil.

Your oil, if it has gone 3k should be dark... black, brown... thats becuase oil in modern cars does not just lubricate... it also is designed to absord all teh crap your engine's comb cycle leaves behind.. unburnt gas, gases and what not. Thats the point of modern oil, to absorb that.

Therefore, your oil should be a dark color.. that just means its doing its job. Obviously different oils can absorb different amounts. Its personal choice, but you should always be concerned if your oil looks going out like it did going in.. which it SHOULD NEVER.

As for the dyno/syth/regular oil debate.. thats again, personal opinion since most oils designed for auto's will do the same basic function.. just depends what you are looking for.

One note of caution for the heavier oils.. if you are doing that for the sole purpose of rising Oil Pressure.. say on an older vehicle.. well heres an example.
AT my shop, a guy came in 88 ford... pretty much blew his engine. Said he thought he was fine, running a very heavy oil and his oil pressure was always good. It fooled him, a weak pump or using a weight sign. higher than your oil pump was designed for just makes it work that much harder and can cause it to fail.. or clog, or full you into thinking you have great pressure.. when your really killing your enigine..

Just a note. But, I also know that most people on here have above average int in cars..


And, as a mechanic.. I always get confused when ever the oil change discussion turns towards HOW LONG can I go without changing... its a cheap and simple thing to do.. and its the NUMBER 1 thing you can do to protect and keep your engine running a long time.

The difference between a engine that makes it to 150K and 250+ is oil changes. Why as a group thats willing to spend 1000 plus on mods, do we flinch at 40 bucks for an oil change. I find it relaxing, changing my oil myself allows me to get up under there and look for other things.. hows my CV boot, hows my tranny.. hows my axle.. oh wow, theres a slight leak... that kind of stuff.

icerunner

[QUOTE=GVOLCRunner;50617187]Wow. Its amazing how as smart as people we are.. the number one myth with cars is oil.

First, if your oil isnt brown or black when you change it.. I would be worried about the oil.



Hey,
I totally disaggree about having to change synthethics at 3,000 mile intervals as it just too soon and not necessary. This isn't "Junk science" here.....Extended drain intervals with synthethics is Proven under years of lab testing by oil engineers that are MUCH smarter than me.

Come on now, clearly we are not talking about Smart VERSUS Stupid here. Also, I find it "telling" that If amsoil is willing to stand behind 20K mile O.C.I's AND Mobil is willing to stand Behind 15K mile O.C.I's with (with M1 extended performance synthetic oils)Then to me, going 5 to 7K for a synthetinc Oil change Intervel is a no brainer... Its been proven that synthethinc Oil actually protects better after 3K miles of use.... (don't ask me why, but for some reason, they say synthetics perform better after the first 3,ooo miles of use...)

With that said, under no circumstances, I would ever go 15K without changing my oil regardless of any proven test... 15K to 20K O.C.I's is Just a little out of my comfort zone...

Yet doubeling the 3 K Mile O.C.I, to 6K OCI (Oil Change Interval):
1)saves money
2)SYN reduces our dependance on foreign oil
3)SYN is PROVEN to STILL protect the engine better than convential oil (almost in every way)
4) Saves me time
5) SYN Still flows much better/quicker in very cold whether and Remember 90% of ALL engine wear occurs at start-up...If oil dosent move freely in your engine during colder temps ..well, you get the picture., (excessive engine wear untill the thick oil warms up and starts flowing)

6)SYN Wont "Sludge" as easy as conventional oil and dosent burn up or degrade in hot temperature extremes (Protects to 450F).

Hate to beat this drum but at 142K Miles My engine "purrs like a kitten" and I have been using M1 SYN since I bought the car at 60K miles.

hross14

I have said this before--but there is a program the Auir Force uses whereas they vaporize an oil sample and examine the results. This same proccess was performed on a camaro (98 i do believe) and checked every 1000 miles. THey also did a bit of short driving. THe results based on the tests was that even at 12k--the oil--though black--was still determined to be good.

Think objectively folks--who is telling you to do 3k oil changed. Could it be the oil companies? I have been in alot of motors and dont see sludge hardly ever (very rare). Maybe it has more to do with people going to Jiffy Lube than O.C.I. How can you do an oil change for 20$ and still even break even?

Me--i go 10k between oil changes and use Syn. Co-worker 320k on a 22re with 10k oil changes living in the desert with lots of dirt. Objective testing is what we need.

mkgarrison5

if you do an oil change interval of 5k miles or more you really need to have it analyzed to see if your motor can take the long intervals. yeah motor companies are saying sure you can go 7500 miles on dino oil and then they wonder why it sludges.. anyway, synthetics IS NOT THE ANSWER TO SLUDGE, never has been never will be.. sludges main cause is engine design plain and simple.. the crap about temps bc your coolant is bad is crap too.. you will see the high temps on your gauge DUH and if you see that yours is overheating, after it cools you should change the oil bc you up the viscosity and you will cake that oil in your motor (common sense).. if your motor is sludgle prone then more than likely you are going to get it.. the ONLY WAY TO keep that from happening is frequent and short oci's.. sad but true.. if you are even in question about your oil do a UOA at Tysonanalysis.com.. he is highly recomended and gives you advise on how to counter the bad stuff your oil shows you like silicon levels and etc..

-- the real epidimic at hand in newer vehicles is FUEL DILUTION in the oil. it breaks down the oil's viscosity and greatly reduces the good affect of your oil.. look up fuel dilution..

icerunner

WITH ANY OIL, If you really want your engine to last
best advice Let your engine warm up (not by letting it idle but by light driving) for about 5 to 10 minutes.

You can drive the car right away, but tell the wife to just be EASY on the pedal for about 5 to 10 minutes before you give it a lot of gas.

Oil engineering FACT:
ALL oils need to reach or approach 212 F before that protect at their best.... Oil engineers will will confirm that Oil dosen't lubercate very well at lower temperatures. This is biggest mistake people make is taking off real quick when there engine is still cold[/U].... I see women (women that don't know any better) do this all the time in my neighborhood...they start the car and they just Floor the pedal right away racing down the street when the engine and oil are still cold..They are killing their engines...
Makes me cringe as this is so stupid... I can hear the engines wailing... THIS IS another reason why 90% of wear occurs at startup....women!
I've got my wife trained....
If you follow this advice and take it easy for the 1st 5 to 10 minutes, your engine will last much, much longer.

Mike Murrell

I've taken 2 asian vehicles past 300K and one past 200K using plain ole Castrol GTX conventional oil and no sludging.

So much for the "gotta use synthetic" to avoid sludging theory.

I agree with a previous post that most of this occurs when people do not change their oil and filter on a regular basis OR maybe they are using synthetic and letting it go for 20K or so because they bought into the extended change non-sense.

X-AWDriver

What makes synthetic oil superior to conventional oil?
I recommend synthetic motor oil to all my customers to prevent sludge. Why?
-Synthetic motor oil is made from a blend of mineral oil, natural gas, and special additives. Because this blend is extremely pure from the beginning, it can withstand more torture in your vehicle's engine.
-Synthetic lubricants cost just slightly more than conventional oils, but offer the best engine protection because:
-synthetics remain stable at high temperatures (conventional oils break down faster at today's higher engine temps)
-synthetics remain fluid at very low temperatures (conventional oils thicken)
-additive packages are formulated with special chemicals for top cleaning and anti-oxidant protection
Remember, you can switch to synthetics on any car regardless of age or previous motor oil. If your vehicle has been acting up, have your technician check for sludge.



That said it all for me and I've been using syn in all my vehicles since '92 and I can't imagine dino oil holding up to the abuse I put my turboed Eclipse through for 8 years. I figure if you put high stress on any vehicle and drive it in extreme temps then synthetic might be the difference in your engine's lifespan and it will be longer with synthetics.

mkgarrison5

the only real need for syns are for cars or trucks that have turbo, charger or any engine mod that will make the motor run hotter, quicker etc etc.. if you have a regular joe bloe truck or car dinos are great up to 5k miles. i do run syn in my stock tacoma 4x4 but i get mine buy one get one free from advannce auto.. they had synpower (valvoline) for bogo for over month so i bought 24 qts....

sludge= poor engine design, too long oci's... that simple..

icerunner

I'm Willing to bet "Mobil Clean 5000" will go 5K ,but i would not try that (5K intervals) on a "suspect" engine at all.