Churnd

I found a new mechanic that I'll be using regularly this past summer. I knew I was in the right place when I walked in his barn/garage and saw a 1979 2wd toyota completely modded with a 350 swapped in with all the goodies and huge paddle tires in the rear. The guy uses it for mud racing and I asked him why he picked Toyota. He said "Cuz they're the best, man!"

Anyway, I went to him b/c my header gaskets were leaking. He said he'd fix em up the best he could. He also recommended that I allow him to modify the mounting flange. This is what he did:



The flange between each cylinder is cut like this. According to him, it will allow each pipe to flex a little on its own. The cylinder head expands and contracts varyingly when the engine is running, right? Well, the stock manifolds are made to expand and contract along with it. Headers are not. That is why most people have leaks. He said by cutting the flange, each pipe would be able to expand/contract with the head and at the same time, keep a good seal. It's also insurance against the pipes vibrating loose. Before, when I hit a bump, the force was hitting the header as a whole. Now, each pipe will be able to do its own thing. I guess only time will tell on this mod, but I'm pretty optimistic about it. Let me know what you guys think.

Churnd

Bump!

I'm kinda surprised. I thought I'd get more feedback on this.

Cebby

I'm considering getting headers. Do you think I should do this to the flange to head off potential problems?

If I get ceramic coated headers, would cutting the flanges compromise the finish?

Not sure if headers come with a warranty, but I'd guess this mod will make the warranty into a bird cage liner.

midiwall

I'm about this ][ close to getting headers as well. I'll have to wait about 8 weeks to see how finances are running though.

Warranty wise... I think that once headers go on, then it'd be hard to convince someone "oh no, I wasn't hotrodding it - seriously, it just broke!".


Churnd;

I did see this post the first time around but didn't have an educated opinion to share.

While I can see the point behind doing this, I would guess that the strength of the flange is considerably reduced. But then, this "may not" be a place where strength is a real issue. I wonder if it wouldn't be stronger to drill holes in the flange, but within the boundaries of the edge of the flange. Would that still allow for expansion?

FattyCBR

Hey Mark-

There's someone on TTORA who has a set of new Edelbrocks that they're selling for $260. Otherwise you can get them from Summit for $350 if you're doing headers on the cheap.

midiwall

No Way!

I was dragging my heals 'cause I was expecting them to be $700!

I was actually going to go for Edelbrocks; I know that I should probably do TRDs - just 'cause - but at $1000+... GASP!

Okay, I'm off to TTORA!

Thanks man!

Mark

FattyCBR

No problem.

Here's the ad

It doesn't look like anyone had replied to it, so you may be in luck.

midiwall

Thanks Milan...

I wrote him last night, and then did some searching and homework (unfortunately, I tend to do things in the wrong order ).

Using the forum here for much of my research, I've since decided to go with ceramic coated Downey's. Whatever I was going to get, I would end up getting them coated anyway, so it started to make sense to look for a "one-stop" shopping experience and do it all at once.


I don't want to hijack the thread, but I did want to thank you again.

Mark

elnip

Cebby
I have the TRD's that I coated before the install and I have yet to have any leaks at the heads in 4 years and they are not cut. I can't speak for the Downey headers and if they have probelms but with 2 sets of headers that have been ceramic coated and ZERO problems, I think it is worth every penny.

Churnd

Sorry for the delay... I've been pretty busy.

Since I've had the flanges cut, I've had no problems with leaks... knock on wood. That has been my main problem with getting the headers. I have had the gaskets replaced 3 times. I know the gaskets Downey gives you aren't the best thing out there, but I don't know what else to use.

If you decide to get them, I'd take them somewhere to check and see if the mounting surfaces are perfectly flat. I don't know if mine were or not but since it'll keep a seal with the gasket even now, I assume they were.

I don't think drilling holes would allow for each pipe to do it's own thing, which is the whole point of cutting the flange. The mechanic who did it seems very knowledgable, as he does work on race engines as well as normal repairs. If anyone's thinking of getting headers, I say go for it. It's definitely a mod that can only help your engine. Just make sure you plan everything out well enough to prevent any misfortunes like I had.

ksurfer

Ok......

I did a fair amount of planning and research before I got Downey ceramic V6 headers from www.truckperformance.com.

First things first. Downey seems to be an excellent company that's professional and performance minded. Truckperformance on the other hand displays none of these characteristics. After ordering headers, asking numerous times “where the @#$^ are they?” and even writing to the BBB (better business bureau) they finally showed up. If you don’t mind dishonesty and a long long time (ordered February arrived late April of 2003) then Truckperformance is allright. It’s actually really unfortunate because besides the headers, everything arrived in record time. It may be that my misfortune with the headers was a rare occurrence and that they (TP.com) are a really good company…but I don’t know.

THE HEADERS - THE INSTALL IS A BITCH!!! Getting the old cross-over exhaust off is a feat of pure muscle over metal. You have to get up on/inside the hood and use a sawz-all to cut 2-3 places in order to get them off. The best part is when you break through the outer metal layer of the old exhaust to find fiberglass flying everywhere (used to insulate the exhaust system). From what I gathered the biggest problem people have with this install is stripping the bolt holes. I was very fortunate and only slightly messed up two threads. I was able to salvage them fortunately, and not have to get them tapped…very difficult install, I consider myself lucky.

After installing them I was rather disappointed with any power gains from 0 to about 3000 RPMs. Once you hit the upper stretch though is where the headers SING. On the highway I can go 95/100 MPH No Problem…really it’s tooo fast but I like it. I don’t think my RIG is in the best shape either so I probably don’t see the full benefits of the headers.

Well I hope this is Helpful to some you out there…oh yeah and one other thing…I thought that I’d see a fuel economy but it really stayed about the same and I think it actually decreased a little just because I’m able to drive faster now.

Enjoy!

Churnd

Congrats on getting the headers on. Reading your post brought back a lot of memories.

Did you try to mount the headers on the stock manifold studs instead of taking them out and replacing them with the bolts Downey provided? I've been wondering if that would actually work.

Also, did you consider just getting the headers straight from Downey? That's what I did, as the prices were a lot cheaper than any website I saw... plus they arrived a week after I ordered them.

I hope the stripped threads give you better luck than mine have given me. Leaks will be your main concern. If you have a problem with leaks, you might want to consider modifying the flange like I did.

ksurfer

Oh yeah...

and about cutting the headers...

It's an interesting mod but I imagine that you effectively compromise their integrity by doing that. That is, instead of six bolts holding three exhaust ports solidly connected you allow each side of all three exhaust ports to become susceptible to fatigue since only two bolts would be holding each of three ports. It’s somewhat difficult to explain without drawing a diagram, but I guess those of us that are really interested can figure it out. But hey, if it’s working for you that’s all that matters!

Churnd

The whole exhaust system is welded together and supported fairly well. There's not much stress on the bolts holding the headers in place other than the vibrations they experience from hitting bumps in the road. That was the point of cutting the flanges in the first place, to absorb vibrations better. It's hard to explain but simply stated... if each pipe is allowed to move on it's own, it won't affect the other pipes while it's moving. That was the main reason I was having leaks. Hope this clears things up a little.

My recommendation is try it out without cutting the flanges first. If you don't have leak probs, you're gold. But if you do, it's just something you might want to consider.

midiwall

Oh man... Don't tell me that!

I ordered my from TruckPerformance (they shipped the next day, I'll have them on Tuesday). I was comfortable with what I paid, considering that I had held off this long because I was looking at $1000 for TRDs.

argh. Care to share just how much cheaper they were? Mine won't be going on for at least a week, and I wouldn't think twice about returning them and getting them striaght from Downey instead. Their website doesn't mention pricing.

Churnd

Mine were for a second gen... not a 3rd, so prices may vary. Quoting from memory, I paid $350 for the ceramic coated headers straight from downey. Last time I looked at Truckperformance, they were $100 more than that.

midiwall

Whew! I feel better now... I paid $340.99 for ceramic coated. Good point about the truck year though, I'll call Downey today and post back what I find out.

Interesting though to see a manufacturer underselling their distributors... There's the "buying direct" side of the equation of course, but in something comparably low-volume like headers, I'd think it would tick off a distributor to find the mfg low-balling the street pricing.


Thanks Chris!

Cebby

2nd Gen V6 headers are now 440 for ceramic and 340 for chrome. Ouch!!

BTW, where does one go to get a ceramic coating?

Churnd

Well, Downey has their own catalog with their own prices. I think they want to sell their products directly out their door rather than supply them through other resalers. Most of their products, such as their suspension lifts, can only be purchased directly through them (as far as I know). I think resalers just buy the products at the same cost as Downey sells to everyone, and marks it up a little (or a lot). Downey doesn't seem to put a lot of effort into advertising or marketing. If they advertised a little more and upgraded their website to where people could place orders with them through it, I guarantee other resalers would stop carrying their products, as nobody would buy from them anymore.

Churnd

Is that price including the crossover pipe? I only bought the headers themselves and drove to the exhaust shop after installing them (open headers, baby!!!) to get a custom crossover made. I estimated that it cost about the same, but everything was welded as opposed to using clamps that Downey provides. Clamps leak, no matter how you use them.

There are special shops that will do ceramic coating for you. It will probably cost you the same difference that Downey charges anyway. I'd say your best bet would be to let Downey do it... as I can speak for their workmanship myself and say that they do a good job.