tns1

98 4runner ltd, 220k. I have a clunk noise that is hard to pinpoint front/back right/left. This isn't the notorious 'letting off the brakes clunk'.
It seems to be most audible when I am driving straight at a slow speed and then turn either right or left. It does not require a hard turn, just enough to shift the vehicle weight. It does not happen if I am stopped and shifting from fwd to rev. It does not seem related to accel.
I replaced the auto trans a few months ago so I re-tightened the most likely fasteners - driveshaft, mounts, crossmembers.

I grabbed each tire at the top and pulled it side-to-side. I get a definite clunk from both rear tires. My lug nuts are tight. I suspect axle bearings. I have no obvious leaks at the seals right now, but I have not popped the drums off. Another candidate would be front ball joints, but I am not detecting any problem just by wiggling the tires. If it is axle bearings, how common is this, and how long can this continue without catastrophic failure?

DRCOFFEE

the ball joint is by design always being pulled apart by the strut spring (not compressed like the newer version) so you will most likely not get any play by grabbing at 6&12 and shaking. Do this, put your hydraulic lift under the lower control arm and lift the wheel off the ground. Then shake the wheel. This will unload the joint and let it sit back in the socket. I'd bet you'll get some nasty play. While you are there and the wheel is lifted, check the tie rod too.

On one of my other vehicles I grabbed the wheel for play and it felt tight but I had to check my brakes and once the wheel was lifted and the wheel removed I found the tie rod very loose and close to failing. The trick is to unload the joint before testing it.



For safety reasons, the LBJ stud should be pointing up, not down.

tns1

I was investigating my clunk/knock noise and found that if I bounced the car up and down at either front tire I could get a very consistent loud noise like a combination of metal hitting metal combined with groaning of metal strain. With someone else bouncing my car, I was able to pinpoint this to the swaybar and its tie rod attachments. There was a lot of vibration coming from the tie rod as the car bounced.

At each end of the swaybar are rubber bushings and a short tie rod with a small ball joint at one end. This joint mates to a ball bolted to the lower control arm. The tie rod is normally prevented from rotating around the ball joint by the rubber sway bar bushings. Otherwise it can rotate until it contacts the control arm. I found both of mine butted up against the control arm.

I used a wrench to rotate the tie rod to the center of its travel. I used some rubber lube to hit the bushings. I also took the opportunity to grease all the driveshaft fittings.

My clunk appears to be gone. My theory is that when the tie rod is rotated all the way, there can be interference with the control arm as it makes small movements up and down. It may be due to wear (I felt no play), or it may be a design issue. During my prior work on the car I did R&R the sway bar, and may have left the tie rods rotated all the way.

I'll continue to check the position of the tie rods to see if they move any. If the sway bar tie rods were to fail, it could be a driving hazard, but nothing like a steering tie rod or LBJ. I once witnessed a control arm ball joint failure on a car going about 20mph. Sparks were flying as the frame dragged the pavement. No injuries, but what a surprise.

James Woods

iTrader: (1)

So are you saying that the sway bar end links are the source of your noise, its pretty common on all types of vehicles, usually you can narrow it by the clunk is when one wheel at a time goes over the bump but if you hit it straight on there is nothing.

tns1

It makes sense, but without seeing it first hand, I could imagine the LBJ having lots of play, but still being a long way from falling apart.
So how common is catastrophic failure of the earlier toyota LBJ design?

rworegon

Common enough that you don't want to encounter it.....major damage ensues. At 220k, it's worth changing them as preventative maintenance.....cheap and easy to do.

DRCOFFEE

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-ge...my-turn-84794/

You should replace your ball joints...

Read up. It's common enough to make me change mine. The funny thing with our LBJs, they don't given you much warning because they always feel tight, until they're not. What's the cost to replace the axle, fender, wheel, etc in comparison to the cost of a new LBJ?

tns1

That video link showing testing LBJ play on a 4-runner, is great. I'll be checking this soon.


...just checked it. Took all of 5min. I have 2-3mm play on the passenger side LBJ, but no measurable play on the driver side LBJ.
Like the video shows, you do have to use the pry bar to see the play. If you just use your hands it won't move.

Ordering the parts today.

tns1

So I have the parts and am ready to go.
Assuming I can separate the ball joint and tie rod end with the tools I have, it looks like I need to remove the calipers and rotors and possibly undo the sway bar end. I assume the wheel hub can stay on the spindle. Is there more?

DRCOFFEE

You can just break the ball joint knuckle and twist off the outer tie rod. Leave the calipers and all the rest on.

tns1

I thought by looking at it the rotors would be in the way of any kind of puller tool I used. I also have a pickle fork which may work. On another vehicle with downward facing LBJ, I was able to separate the LBJ just by letting the weight of the vehicle rest on the LBJ stud (nut loosened of course), but that was a much smaller vehicle.

DRCOFFEE

If you dont plan to reuse the LBJ just use the pickle fork. The rotor wont be in the way of what you'll be doing. You will need blue loctite for the 4 LBJ bolts and torque to 59 ft lbs.

tns1

Mission accomplished.
I was not able to use my pickle fork since it was made for tie rods, and not big enough to fit the LBJ stud. I lowered the stud onto a metal block (nut loosened), and found a couple of metal wedges that fit nicely between the lower control arm and the LBJ housing. It took only a dozen or so raps on the end of these wedges to pop the joint apart. These wedges are possibly for splitting wood but are only about 1.5" wide and 8" long. Using two pieces allows them to slide over each other and not mar the bolts. I doubt the toyota 2 jaw puller works as quick and easy as these.

The tie rod was still attached, so I lifted the spindle and twisted the old LBJ out of the way. I clean the mating surfaces and put the new LBJ in place, snugging the bolts. Only then did I attack the tie rod end. This was the most difficult part of the process. I wasn't replacing these, so I didn't want to use the pickle fork. Fortunately I had a general purpose 3 jaw puller that I was able to tighten down on the stud. I applied all the torque I thought the puller would stand (prob ~40 ft-lbs), and then rapped on the LBJ housing with a big hammer to give it a shock. That broke it free. If I ever do this again, I'll buy a real tie rod separator. Repeat for side 2. Two to three hours total time.

DRCOFFEE

How did the old LBJs look and feel once you had them out?

tns1

The same as I found by doing the pry-bar, test. I found no play in the driver side, but some in the passenger side (~2mm). If anything, I'd expect the driver's weight would wear that side more, unless there were a torn boot. There is resistance to swiveling the stud back and forth, but there may be a spring inside the joint that always creates friction regardless of wear. I'd cut them apart but it is not worth the time. Replacing them was a good idea.

tns1

The original noise has returned - a very sharp metallic pop/rap when turning.
There is a steep hill near me that has a stop & turn at the bottom. Every time I make the turn I get this noise, and it is louder than ever. I'd swear that it was a loose bolt somewhere on the suspension, but I have checked.

I removed the sway bar and the noise is gone. BTW, the car is very drivable without a sway bar as long as you don't go crazy.

I can see nothing wrong with the sway bar links - no noticeable play, still has grease. These joints undergo a lot more force on the car than I can apply on the bench, so it could be there is a problem I can't duplicate. I am leaning (ha) towards replacing them anyway as I can't figure what else it could be.

If it were a CV joint, I'd expect the continuous rattle on turns rather than a single pop.

tns1

I replaced the sway bar links. The noise seems to be gone - I hope for good.
One odd thing I noticed is that at each end of the sway bar there is a hole the link bar goes thru, and two rubber bushings that sandwich the sway bar. I would expect the spot where the bushings sit would be a perfectly flat round counterbore, but it isn't. Instead the counterbore is dimpled up very noticeably on one side. This is true for both right and left ends of the sway bar.

I am thinking that water has seeped past the bushings, and weakened the metal around the counterbores. It isnt broken yet, but I could beef this up with a large flat washer if needed. Can anyone verify what it should look like?