TrackRunner

Hello all. I've been lurking around this forum and others for quite a while now, and have a question or two about the supercharger fuel upgrades. I know most of you will say search, but I have. And as much as I have read, and it's been a lot, I haven't found a whole lot of information on the 7th injector kit plus URD's AIC upgrade kit. Nobody has really talked about their experience with this setup, other than TRDOLMAN. I am planning on buying a supercharger for my 4Runner soon, and after looking at TRDOLMANs setup and numbers, I'm thinking the 7th injector with the URD upgrade is the way to go. I know the preference around yotatech is the URD fuel kit, but from what I have read, the 7th + AIC setup is not that much more expensive, the install is easier, the tuning sounds easier, and in the case of TRDOLMANs truck, it is damn powerful. So why aren't more people going the 7th + AIC route? I just want to make sure I make the right decision before putting down all this money. Let me know what you think.

midiwall

I'm not sure what you've found here, but most folks have gone with the 7th w/ or w/o the AIC. I spend a LOT of time telling folks that there are other options (injectors and an FTC1 or SMT6) but those involve tinkering, tuning and a bit of wiring. A lot of people don't want to spend the time, so a plug & play solution like the 7th is a better fit.

If you want maximum power and control, go with larger injectors and a controller like the FTC1 or SMT6. If you want to just plug & play and have an install that doesn't require the top of the engine to come off, then go with the 7th and the AIC.


Kudos to looking at this BEFORE you've put the supercharger on.

JHRRLD

Check this thread out. Even better URDs 7th injector kit.

mt_goat

No doubt his numbers are very impressive....but....how much of that HP was due to the 7th injector? Last time I asked him those numbers were with a 2.0" drive pulley. A pulley that small spins the SC above the manufacters recommended rpms and also requires a WI setup to keep engine temps down. IIRC he usually runs a bigger pulley for normal DD. I also seem to remember him running some pretty lean A/F numbers on his setup, which could be dangerious to engine life.

QSVeilside

Hi TrackRunner,

There are several things to keep in mind when buying a supercharger...

First is the cost. The person you refer to has spent upwards of 7k into his truck, (I am guessing parts alone not including labor, dyno time, tuning time + scan tools - probably brings the total closer to 10k). His truck is awesome. But he put in the hardwork, time, and cash to do it right.

Second is your goal. Maximum hp? Reliability as a daily driver? Consider the amount you will spend, and the value of the truck. Is it worth turning it in for the 4th gen taco or 4runner? Don't forget how heavy these trucks are. Even with a supercharger, smaller pulley, etc, it WILL NOT wow you like a supra, m3, is350, g35 or any car for that matter close to 300hp at the crank. Our trucks are fat and they simply do not have the power to weight ratio.

If you do a search here and on www.customtacos.com you will find more information. Some trucks don't respond well to the 7th. Others do. Apparently there is some discrepancy out there in the functionality of the 7th injector, (in my opinion - often times it has something to do with installation and following the YEAR specific steps. Speaking of which, what year is your 4runner?).

I had no problems running the 7th with the 2.2" pulley. I have no problems running the 2.1" pulley w/ 190LPH fuel pump. This suggests to me that the 7th is perhaps able to cool the intake charge down a bit while sufficiently fueling the engine to accomodate the increased boost and heat generated. I think Dave, (TRDOLMAN), spoke with a TRD representative and he/she mentioned something about the piggy back ecu. It apparently eliminates the necessity for closed loop tuning. You might consider looking into what it does.

My AIC has yet to be tuned correctly. I plan on doing so while on a dyno. I don't have WI, nor TRD headers. I am expecting numbers around 230 to 250 rwhp with the 2.1" pulley and proper tuning.

I am satisfied with my decision and would repeat it in an instant.

Good luck with your decision!

mt_goat

That's a great question, what years can't use the 7th? 96-98 maybe?

QSVeilside

I believe that's right. I recall reading something about the 7th working with the years that have dual cats.

Ok, did a search on google and found this to be correct. Vehicle applications for the 7th injector as well as the installation manual are found on the link below:

http://www.customtacos.com/tech/index.php?article=170

TrackRunner - Open the acrobat file and make sure you choose the specific part number for your application.

TrackRunner

I would prefer the more plug & play route, but not if that means I can't tune my engine to the point where I know it is safe from detonation and the like. QSVeilside said her heard that the TRD piggy back ecu "apparently eliminates the necessity for closed loop tuning." Do we know how true that is? From my research, it looked like a lot of people were having problems with running to lean or to rich with the 7th. If this is only true in open loop then I understand why the AIC and 7th is such a great match. But if the AFRs are off in closed loop, then even the 7th with the AIC won't help correct? QSVeilside, do you ever experience any irregular AFRs when in closed loop?


This is my daily driver, so reliabilty is most important. I'm looking to get the extra power for the same reasons as most of you guys went with the s/c, better passing and towing capabilities. Btw, I am driving a 2000 SR5 4x4, bone stock right now.


I'm very interested to see where you end up after tuning the AIC, and how that compares to a similar vehicle with just the URD upgrade kit installed with a smaller pulley.


So if you did it all over again, you would stick with the 7th + AIC, and not go with the URD Upgrade kit?

Thank you all for the information. I am going to see what I can find on this TRD ecu that comes with the 7th.

midiwall

Well... (just to be clear) With just the 7th, you can't tune anything, and it's truly Plug & Play. With the AIC you can tune fuel and timing, and URD will pre-load maps to get you started.

Going with larger injectors and the FTC1, you can tune both, and have a starter map loader. Going larger injectors and an SMT6 will put you in a spot to having to tune from scratch (though the SMT users here will help with a base map) and you'll have more flexibility overall than any of the other methods.

It should be noted that using ANY of thee "full tune" solutions will put you in a spot where you can toast your engine. You can get to the point of running so lean that you'll burn it up. So... be careful, install the right instruments to monitor what's going on (EGT and wideband O2) and PAY ATTENTION.


The quote taken as-is would be valid in the sense that, again, with JUST the 7th you can't tune ANYTHING, so therefore it "eliminates the need".

Umm, I think that you'll find folks that love/hate run rich/lean/just right with any of the solutions. The 7th is VERY closed loop, if you find that you don't like the way it runs your engine, there's not a lot that you can do.


I have a thread floating around where I note that _ANYTHING_ you do to try to tune in closed loop will eventually be overridden by the ECU. It's the nature of the beast. The ECU only knows to aim at 14.7:1 for closed loop - that's its job. I can certainly lie to it about what the outside world is like by modifying MAF readings, and that will create a situation where the ECU will think it needs to push more (or less) fuel, but it's temporary. It will still strive to get things back to 14.7:1 as reported by the front O2 sensor.

And that opens up the can of worms about finding a way to fake out that sensor, thus pulling all the viable input away from the ECU and give you ultimate control over your fueling. Find my thread on the "ECT1" to see my results with one of these boxes...


In the end, the only way to get true front-to-back control over your engine is to get rid of the stock ECU and get something like a MegaSquirt in there. But that's a HUGE task.

TrackRunner

I do understand that the 7th alone is absolutely not tunable, and I should have been more clear in my previous post. When I said "I would prefer the more plug & play route", I meant having to tune and fiddle less with the equipment, ie the AIC. I was under the impression that you only tune the AIC for open loop, and that it was less work than tuning the URD kit. Now I'm curious. When you buy the 7th injection upgrade kit, and opt for the timing board, are you adjusting timing for open loop only, or both closed loop and open loop? Maybe that's where I'm getting confused


Should I presume the SMT6 is a more capable unit than the FTC1 then? Since the SMT6 is not available in URD's kit, would I go about buying each part of the package separately?


I tracked that thread down and read it. You're basically saying that without going for the megasquirt application you spoke of in this thread, which sounds like too much work, we are doomed to be at 14.7:1 in closed loop correct? and if so, how bad is that for the engine when you have the s/c strapped on? Do you just retard the timing in closed loop to prevent damage, since there is nothing you can really do in the fuel table that will stay?


Thanks again for all of the info.

midiwall

weeeeeeeeeeeee! Yeah, this is more than casually confusing, it took me a while to get it all under my belt. My mentor at the time was getting pretty frustrated with me.


So, let's look at the two pieces of tuning that's available in most any piggyback (AIC, FTC1, SMT, etc).

Any of those boxes will allow you to change two things - fuel delivery and timing. Timing is "easy" in that the box sits in-between the crankshaft/camshaft/both sensor and the ECU and then simply lies to the ECU about where the engine is in terms of rotation. The ECU will react directly on that information and toss a spark as appropriate.

(here's a key point) the fact that this is the ONLY place that the ECU gets timing information is what lets you have direct control over advance/retard of the spark in BOTH closed and open loop.


Fuel delivery is another issue... To figure out fuel, the ECU uses TPS, MAF and the front O2 sensor. These piggy-backs will sit in-between the MAF and the ECU _or_ the TPS and the ECU. There's a reason for the choice, and we can talk about that later.

So the piggyback has the ability to fake up how far the accelerator is pressed (taps into TPS) or how much air is coming in (taps into MAF). Then by lying to the ECU, it can force the ECU to dump more or less fuel into the cylinders. For the TPS tap, it can richen the mixture by telling the ECU that the TPS is pushed more than it really is; for the MAF it richens by saying that more air is coming in than really is. It leans things out by doing the opposite.

Now, this works GREAT in open-loop, but in closed-loop we have that third component to deal with - the front O2 sensor.

Closed-loop is ALL about getting the engine to run at Stoich (14.7:1) and that's why the front O2 sensor exists. The problem comes from here...

When you have a piggyback lying to the ECU about air flow in order to make things richer, it most certainly will work - but the O2 sensor will expose the results. That will force the ECU to add negative fuel trim, which will counteract the fake-out of the piggyback. The good news is that this process takes time. I DEFINITELY see performance changes at 1000 miles, but I haven't paid a lot of attention to figure out how soon things start to go south. I THINK I've felt things as early as 300 miles, but I'm guessing that 500 miles is the dyno threshold.

The work-around for this is to reset the ECU when you think about it. That will keep the piggyback in control. I even installed a momentary switch in-cab to make this easier. I just hit it when I think about it.

Check this thread for more of me and other folks babbling about this.


So, the "ECU creep" is a an issue in terms of fuel control during closed-loop. Which can be somewhat of an issue when you're trying to tune for street or dirt versus strip.

Some of the babble around here talks about finding a way to fake out the ECU such that it thinks the front O2 sensor is always reporting back the equivalent of Stocih (it's just a specific (and precise) voltage). The thought is that if the ECU sees Stocih, then it won't mess with the fuel trims. Seems to make sense...

The catch to this is that you actually want the ECU to do it's thing some of the time, it just makes life easier when you're cruising around town. But, when you want power, you really want to be able to get FULL control. The most logical way to do this is to trigger something from boost pressure. Namely, "kill the O2 sensor anytime I'm in boost".

That's harder to do than it looks. There are boxes on the market (SplitSecond ESC1) that claim to be able to do this. I personally have found the box to be JUNK - and I know of six other folks that feel the same way.

The trick is to find out JUST how to fake the ECU, and SS doesn't seem to have it - though they claim otherwise.

Anyway...

There's a semi-newcomer on the block which a friend of mine is doing research on. The MAP-ECU2 is a piggyback that MAY just have a way around the ECU creep. There are questions pending with them now to try and nail this down.


The SMT6 is definitely more powerful (i.e., it can do more things) than the FTC1. Mr. URD will have you thinking otherwise, but it's very easy to prove him wrong.

Some highlights...

• The SMT6 has a third programmable map which you can use for anything you want - 7th injector, misting system, disco lights while in WOT, etc.
• There's a separate on/off output which can be triggered by a number of things, RPM, airflow, table values, etc.
• There are TWO _complete_ sets of maps, switchable with a simple toggle switch. This lets you switch between tunings (street & dirt, street & strip, economy & power, etc) VERY easily
• There's a Lambda mode which will make decisions based on changes, not absolute. So, instead of having a map setup that says "add 3% fuel at 43% airflow and 3800rpm" you can set it to work like "add 3% fuel when there's a 17% change in airflow". That's makes MUCH more sense when it comes to looking at how someone actually drives.

and there's more...

So yeah... To make use of the SMT6 you end up buying the fuel pump, injectors and plugs from URD, then you drop a line to Weasy2k to order an SMT6.



Yeah, after the "time leading to the ECU Creep" then you're stuck at 14.7:1.


Stoich is "safe", nothing's going to blow up, but you're losing power and throttle response.



Yeah, but with an SC you're doing this because of damage that you'll get from ping, not from the engine running at Stoich.


Hope that helps!

TrackRunner

I've learned more in your last four posts than I did in the last four months of searching and reading everything I could on all the toyota forums Thank you for taking the time to explain everything so thoroughly.


That's a smart and easy way to get around it.. Was the switch pretty easy to wire?


Are there base maps out there for the SMT6 that are a good starting point for just the fuel upgrades and the s/c? Could they be e-mailed if so?


I'm a big fan of "safe" Is the loss in power and throttle response really bad? Or are you just not getting the full potential out of your supercharger. If it's not that bad then something like URD's 7th injection kit (speaking of which, anyone know when they are planning on releasing this?) seems like a pretty sweet deal. Easy install, you can tune your open loop to your hearts content, and it will hopefully be a helluva lot cheaper than TRDs 7th injector.

midiwall

tr;

i'm on the road right now with limited net access. i'll be back late monday nght.. thanks for the kudos!

and thank you shannon for the head's up!

midiwall

I'm back - and almost caught up with life!



Yeup, it's just an SPST momentary switch that interrupts the power to the ECU.


Yeup. Any of us here can mail them to you. I'm actually running the SMT5 though and I don't think the maps are compatible in "source" form. But, it's not hard to setup through the UI and create something safe.


It depends where you are in the power band. Running at Stoich when you're climbing through 3000rpm on your way to redline (but outside of WOT) will cost you 20hp or more. Running at Stoich at 1800rpm in a highway cruise won't show on a dyno.

The point is more about being able to lead the engine into it's sweet spot. So, if you know you're looking for a kick into the passing lane, lead the engine into "rich" in anticipation of the increase in air volume.


Probably... It'll be a new viable option for the SC crowd.

TrackRunner

Ok, so i'm going the bigger injector route. I'm still debating on the SMT vs FTC option, and I only have one more question

What are your thoughts on URD's AFR sensor calibrator? (http://www.urdusa.com/product_info.p..._id=1230100028) It sounds like they are trying to do the same thing that SS was doing with their ESC1, but does it work any better? or is it just he ESC1 branded with the URD logo? If it is different than the ESC1, and works as advertised, then that would fix the 14.7:1 while in part throttle/low boost situation right?

mastacox

Wow, there's a lot of great information getting thrown into this post! (taking notes for the Supercharger FAQ/Wiki)

I just want to throw something out there, and you can do whatever you would like with the information. I have the SplitSecond FTC1-E (built-in oxygen sensor signal conditioner) through my URD Fuel Upgrade Kit, and I have to say that I have been able to get a great tune out of my engine. In my experience, the unit is able to successfully fake out the stock ECU into thinking it is running at 14.7, and so with my fuel map I have it so that I start going down to 12:1 at 1 PSI.

I understand Mark has had some rough times trying out the ESC-1, and that is quite unfortunate, but it seems that [the principle] is working as intended for me. When I press on the gas, as soon as the MAP hits 1psi (or whatever pressure I have defined), my AFR starts going down (as defined by my fuel map). It's interesting to see that I'm not ACTUALLY in open loop too, because the AFR still varies slightly back and forth, only around a lower number. For example: when driving in vacuum, the AFR stays <around> 14.7, but usually varies up as high at 15.0, and as low as 14.4. It is my suspicion this is a artifact from the low refresh rate of the stock ECU. Now when the O2 sensor conditioner kicks in, my AFR goes down to about 13:0 (for starters anyway, at 1 psi), but it will vary as high as 13.3, and as low as 12.7 (in open loop the AFR will go to a number and stick, no variation at all). As long as I stay in the same spot (pressure, rpm), the AFR stays there too, the ECU never tries to overcome this rich condition (because as far as I can tell it doesn't know). I have also peeked at my short term fuel trim when the O2 signal conditioner is on, and the fuel trims are nearly zero (fluctuating a little here and there). As I have gotten a better and more refined map, I have also had to reset my ECU less and less. This is proof positive to me that once I can get the right trims, my ECU won't have any idea something is going on, and the long term fuel trims will be essentially zero.

In that light, I would talk to Dale (mt_goat) to see if he has had any luck with the AFR Sensor calibrator. He has one that he installed on his beast of a truck.

mt_goat

I haven't tried tuning the A/F Cal yet, just the FTC, but the A/F Cal seems to working like you descibe your's is. I need to get someone to help me drive though, so I can watch the fuel trims better. So far I've been driving with one eye on the road sometimes and one eye on the gauges, so it's tough to also watch the computer screen.

JHRRLD

Make sure you actually have the AFR sensor. Stick your head under you truck and see how many cats you have. I also have a 2000 5vz 4wd 4runner but it has federal emissions (which I didn't realize when I ordered the AFR calibrator) and I can't use. From my understanding: 2 cats= AFR (cali models)1 cat= front and rear O2 sensors (fed models).

Anyways I'll drop ship the AFR calibrator NIB to you for $200. Drop me a PM if you are interested.

mastacox

I think we should meet half way (Amarillo maybe) this summer and have a URD party Little tuning, little wheelin', etc.

midiwall

Brian and Dale are better suited to answer that, and they are.

URD doesn't make ANY of the electronics stuff they sell, it's all re-branded SplitSecond product. I think the AFR box is the PSC1:
http://splitsec.com/products/calibrators.htm


My bottom line is jaded, but I'm not a fan of the SS add-ons. Even the FTC1, but I'll at least support that it's a viable way of controlling fuel & timing.