BlazeN8

I've had many of the 4" drop bracket kits in my possession at one time or another over the years. The design and geometry are similar from my observations. Trail Master, SuperLift, SkyJacker, Rough County, ProComp, etc. The spindle spacers are all very similar. The drop bracket "stilts" are also similar. Trail Master uses a cast steel for there "stilts" while some of the other outfits use laser cut plate work with brake bends and welding. Some designs re-use the factory front cross member and add a new 1/8" metal rear cross member (where from the factory there wasn't a rear cross member at all) Using the factory front cross member is fine as its a boxed construction and is fairly strong. But the new thin wall cross members on some brands are just flat plate laser cut and brake bent to be like a c-frame. These cross members are really flimsy and I have come across a few rigs in the yards with bent up rear cross members.



Superlift doesn't have you re-use the factory front cross member or use a thin wall rear cross member either. Their design connects the stilts to a new rectangular tube with welds. Tech Tim sent me this Superlift unit for me to check out for another design we were working on. It had been cut and re-welded so that it wasn't as much of a drop, but the basic form is intact.



I don't have a problem with bolting the drop bracket "stilts" to the cross members as long as the cross members are beefy. The front cross members are fine, like I said earlier, and I have set it up where I flipped around a second front cross member that I had cut off the diff mounting tabs to be used as the rear cross member. My first prototype CMdiff sub-frame was built like that but now it is a 2x2 tube steel with 1/4" wall so its even stronger. Then by connecting the front and rear cross members it becomes a ridged moment frame. This assembly is then bolted into the vehicle frame at the four LCA pivot locations, making the geometry even stronger.



As many of you know if you are not using a drop bracket the stock design only uses a front cross member, leaving the rear with no brace between the LCA pivot drops. Just adding a rear brace is a huge strength improvement. Without the rear brace under heavy abuse the rear pivot drop flexes and will spread the frame rails, possibly requiring a trip to the frame shop to get the alignment back to spec.

Here is a bolt in version I built when I was using my truck as a 2wd pre-runner; and that is because this brace interferes with the differential. But, it could have been made not to! I wouldn't bother making one for you guys out there in need, as TC offers a weld in brace that's really nice and inexpensive. However a weld in application is more difficult to get the diff in or out, and if you ever go with a drop bracket its a pain in the behind to cut out. Anyway a moot point now since I have the sub-frame.



Here are few items remaining from the Drop Bracket Kit that I am not using. The diff drop brackets.



The Sway Bar Drop Brackets.



And the Bump Stop Drop Brackets.

BlazeN8

As you can see from the earlier photo, the bump stop drop brackets that came with the TM kit are light duty. They were cut from a 2"x4" rectangular tube. Pro Comp Stage II beefed them up with a gusset that welds over one of the open ends, preventing it from racking over or collapsing on itself. Superlift uses a round tube with caps welded on the ends. The caps have treaded holes on each end, one side for the factory metric bump the other for a 3/8" bolt to attach to the frame.

I went with the round tube design as it is super strong in compression and handles lateral much better, it wont rack over on itself. I also stepped up the tube diameter. On the two front bump stop brackets I upgraded to a 1/2" bolt, then added a gusset that attaches to a second mounting point. On two rear brackets I used (2) 3/8" bolts. The extra attachment points should keep the brackets from spinning loose and add some stability. Think of a tall skinny guy standing on one foot vs a sumo wrestler in a wide two legged stance. These puppy's should be plenty strong







The other aspect about my bump stop bracket redesign is that I shortened the height. I went from 4" tall to just over 3" tall as you can see in the above photo. This will allow more "up travel" in the suspension. Altering the bump stop height like this needs to be done very carefully as it effects many other aspects in the system. Various component specs need to be evaluated for items such as Tie Rod End, CV axles, shocks, and Ball Joints. Here is a photo of the bump stop brackets installed on the truck with the suspension compressed on one side and drooped on the other.

Zpd426

Looking great man. Cant wait to see that kit in production! Soon I hope! That fordota will be a great platform for it.

BlazeN8

Thanks Zach! You should be taking notes on this Combo Kit build as its a stepping stone to get into the Mega Travel. Are you still thinking about installing your Drop Bracket Combo kit?

The Mega Travel can handle a bit more up travel and about 2" more droop. But, the combo kit and the MT share the same ride height and spindle spacers. The CMdiff is also interchangeable. I will be adding a whole lot more to the write up of the "combo kit" over the next few days.

I know the burning question is why not the MT now? Well, I am preparing the 2nd MT prototype for mock up to have production models made. When that is finished Proto II will go on this truck. The other reason for the delay is this truck has altered motor mounts for the V8 conversion and that obstructs the operation of the MT UCAs. The same goes for the V8 headers. So the MT wont work until I reconfigure some things.

BlazeN8

In my earlier post I mentioned the importance of checking things over when modifying the bumps and droop stops. The bump stop brackets I built here with a 3.125" height were a bit short. My bad, a 3.500" height would have been better, but here is the thing, I built them for the Mega Travel that I will eventually be installing. Take a look, here is a photo of the Combo Kit.



And here is the Mega Travel.



There are many similarities but the biggest difference is the MT alters the pivot points and uses different length LCAs, UCAs, and steering links.

Because of this geometry change the 3.125" bump stops allow too much "Up travel" for the combo kit. Here are the problems. First off is the front bracket and the rear bracket are not contacting the LCA at the same time. If you look closely you can see the front stop is touching the LCA where as you can see light under the rear stop.



Not a big deal, a 3/16" shim is all it takes to correct the difference.



And as you can see here they are now contacting the LCA equally.



The second issue is with the steering linkage. The heim joint angles are fine but when I turned the steering all the way to the RH or LH side the adjusting sleeve contacts the frame. When the LCA is just touching the bump stop it clears, but when the bump is compressed with the weight of the truck it hits.



A 3-1/2" tall bump stop bracket would eliminate this contact problem.

For the next series of test you have to disconnect the steering so you can turn the spindle by hand.



Now as you turn the spindle to the RH and LH steering stops you need to feel for drag in the Ball Joints. The Upper BJ is a Mega Travel Ball Joint so I suspect its not maxed out. I'll detail that a bit later. The lower ball joint is showing some signs of drag and binding when I turn the spindle to the left or right. The other issue I am seeing is the lower BJ nut is crunching into the brake rotor dust shield. Again the 3.5" bumpstop bracket would correct these issues.



In summary I'd say the "up Travel" is pretty much maxed out especially if making a sharp turn with the suspension hard bottoming onto the bump stops. A 3/8" shim would probably be enough to allow the lower BJ to rotate freely. And the brake dust shield can be trimmed or removed. The sure thing to correct would be a 3.5" tall bump stop bracket.

BlazeN8

Next up I will go over checking the clearances for the suspension to set the limits for down travel or droop.



First check the steering and heim joint angle. Then remove the steering link as before to check for drag and binding in the BJs. In my case the steering was fine as was the BJs. This indicates I can allow a bit more droop. Lets see how much. I'd say lets go big and remove the droop stop completely and go metal to metal.



I had some aftermarket poly stops that are a bit firmer than the stock ones. They compress a little less so maybe I can go back to the stock ones?



Well the UCA doesn't contact the frame bracket at the droop stop as you can see in this photo.



I would have assumed this would be the location of metal on metal contact but it isn't. Turns out it is at the front part of the UCA where the UCA hits the frame rail.



Perhaps a little grinding to the UCA in that spot? Before I go there lets first check the BJs for drag or binding. Turns out when I rotate the spindle there is drag. I could mess with low profile droop stops but its not worth a fraction of an inch of extra droop at this point. Besides I like the softer more compressive compound of the factory original.

So there you have it, I found my limits for up travel and droop. Here are the travel numbers I measured from the garage floor to the center line of the spindle snout.

Down Travel- metal to metal contact (at front of UCA to frame rail) is 19-3/8"

Up Travel- metal to metal bump stop bracket to LCA 32-3/4"

The math, 32.750 - 19.375 =

13.375" Metal to Metal wheel travel.

This would be the absolute maximum and not a usable travel number. The "up travel" is maxed out as the steering link is hitting the frame and the lower BJ hits the brake rotor dust cover and is showing some drag. The "down travel" is showing drag in the Lower BJ and the front of the UCA is contacting the frame.

With 3/8" shims added to the bump stop brackets, and then using the factory bump and droop stops, the measurements are 31.875 - 19.625 =

12.250" Usable Wheel Travel.

This means the Combo kit with minor upgrades is about 1" more than the standard Blazeland LA kit.

chukarhunt

iTrader: (1)

Subscribed! Amazing work Blaze. I am excited to see it come along. It feels like I jumped into the middle of all this build up. Is the mega travel build in your 4runner build up thread? Keep up the great work. If your mega travel goes into production, I am going to consider getting it! Just not sure if 5 inches of lift is for me.

BlazeN8

Thanks chukarhunt! Yes the 4 Runner build thread will detail the Mega Travel from the beginning to its current status, the evolution, read it. Here is the link,

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f199...thread-203458/

Also do a forum search to find more information. Type in Blazelander2013

As for 5" of lift and a long arm track width, its nice! In contrast, back in 2005, I had a 4-5" Superlift drop bracket kit, w/ 3" Rancho UCAs, and a 2" body lift. That set up was about the same height but it had stock track width. With that set up I ran 33s. This felt uncomfortably high at times, but you adjust your diving and get used to it. Here are some photos I dug up.









From that high rider experience in 2005, going back to 5-6" of suspension again made me nervous, but I tried it again, this time with long arms and it was fine. The Long Arm track width is 65" while stock is 58" and that width keeps it stable, even without sway bars. I have been driving the 4 Runner with 5" lift since October of 2010 and the height feels big but stable. When ever I drive the 1985, also at 5" lift, but at 56" track width, it feels a lot less stable.

Just a week ago, when the Fordota was at 3" of lift, it felt like a low rider after driving the other rigs. Even so the rear always felt high. The rear has not changed, but add 2" to the front and now the front to rear balance just feels right! A higher front will plane out better in the whoops and is better for the type of desert wheeling I enjoy most.

chukarhunt

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the input! Looks like tons of fun in the pics. That made me curious about how much 5 inches on my truck would be, so I just took a tape measure to it and 5 inches looks like nothing! For sure it would be stable enough, like you said with the extra width. Just so I understand you correctly, that 5 inches of lift is strictly suspension, correct? Or does that include the 2 inch body lift? Do you need a body lift to take advantage of the full 16 inches of travel or just new fiberglass fenders?

BlazeN8

Chukarhunt,

Another way to see what 5" of lift might look like is to jack op the front with a floor jack placed under the front cross member. Place some jackstands on the frame rails then jack up the rear. You may not have enough suspension droop to hit 5" so the wheels may come off the ground. Borrow some tires the size you will be running. Take some pictures, take measurements, sit in the cab. Should give you a good feel for the height and a visual reference. Kind of a lot of work but compared to installing the actual parts a walk in the park.

Yes the 5" of lift is suspension lift! But the 1985 and 1986 trucks also have 2" body lifts. The Mega Runner has a 1" body lift. With 35" tires, a 1" body lift will allow the stock front fenders to contact the tire at full stuff, a 2" BL and the tires wont hit. Fiberglass fenders will reduce tire rubbing in some areas.

To answer your question "do you need a body lift to take advantage of the full 16 inches of travel or just new fiberglass fenders" The standard Blazeland LA kit is 12" WT, (wheel travel) the combo kit (I am writing up now) is 13" WT, and the Mega Travel (on the other thread) is 15" WT. The CMdiff configuration will allow up to 16" WT but it is unlikely the mega travel steering can be made to handle that much. If you were disconnect the steering linkage the arms and ball joints will, but its pushing it. This is how I know the CVs in the CMdiff can handle 16" WT.

If you all ready have a Drop Bracket kit installing Long Arms doesn't add room for bigger tires. This is because when you bottom out the suspension on the bump stop the tires are almost in the same location just out further. A drop bracket kit on its own recommends 33s. A combo kit without a body lift or fiberglass fenders will also clear 33s.

I went over setting the bump stops earlier for the maximum "up travel" in terms of what the suspension components would allow regardless of tire size. This procedure is the same to see what tires fit.

With the coil spring and shock removed and the tuck is sitting on jack stands fully drooped I used a floor jack to stuff the suspension as shown. I stopped jacking up when the frame rail just started lifting off the jack stands. Don't let if lift very much just a hair. I am wanting the bump stops to take the weight of the truck and be compressed so no need to go overkill. Be very careful doing this.



Now turn the wheel to the RH and LH steering stop and check clearances. Here is the RH turn. Only about 1/4" between the tire and the fender.



And the LH turn. Plenty of room. However in the picture it looks like the tire is hitting the bumper, its not there is almost 2" clear.



Pointing the wheels straight the distance from the tire to the top of the fender arc is about 6" Take away the body lift and its four. Take away the +3" higher fiberglass fender opening and about one inch. The thing with these fiberglass fenders is the opening is higher and they are wider to cover the track with but the opening at the fire wall door jamb is the same. The fire wall door jamb is where the tire rub is the biggest issue, go figure!

Here are the wheels set straight. Plenty of room here!

BlazeN8

If you examine the differences between the 12" travel standard LA kit and the 13" travel combo kit you will see the extra inch of travel is attained in additional up travel. This is a result of my shortening bump stop brackets, something you couldn't do on a non-drop bracket rig without cutting up the frame brackets and rebuilding. Even then, without a drop bracket kit 31" tires might be too big when the suspension is compressed that much. The drop bracket provides the lift while the long arms provide the travel. The drop bracket also allows room for the CMdiff to fit beneath the oil pan.

The Mega Travel Ball Joints are the reason I was able to get that extra up travel. Without them, the stock BJs will bind. I don't know the complete history but I do know my old acquaintances over at Downey told me that back in the day, race teams would clearance the BJs to gain more up travel. Downey followed suite and began selling these modified BJs for the Rancho / Downey A-arm kits. Then later for their +2" long arm kit. I asked why just modify for more "up travel" and not for more "down travel" and was told because if you open up the slot for more droop the ball will pull out of the socket. I removed the grease boot to check it out and after examining the dynamics this makes total sense!

Anyway, after Downey closed shop I decided to modify a set of BJs on my own. Turns out it wasn't too difficult. Here is a modified BJ on the left and an unmodified on the right. Interestingly I have found quite a few BJs that tend to begin to modify themselves, see how the bottom of the slot is deformed.



The first cuts I like to make are three plunge cuts with a small cut off wheel. These are just rough cuts to save time with the rotary file. Be careful not to plunge too deep because you might nick the ball and create a bur that will wear out the plastic lining cup.



Once I remove the bulk of the metal I like to go back and cut the plastic cup with a utility knife blade.



Then its just a matter of smoothing the slot with a rotary file.



If you modify the slot correctly you will gain about 10 degrees of additional up travel.

BlazeN8

I suspect many folks main concern with Mega Travel BJs is by opening up the slot has it been weakened. The argument is that you are only enlarging the slot on the up travel side of the opening. As such, the ball is being pushed into the socket as the suspension compresses. As the suspension returns then its just pulling the UCA down and the resistance is minimal. However, when the suspension is completely dropped the UCA downward movement is halted by the droop stop. This halting force can dislocate the ball from the socket. But in this droop position the newly enlarged slot it on the other side where its not being exposed so its not at fault.

The droop stop halting the down travel is acceptable with stock length control arms. The spring load coming from the torsion bars terminates on the mid span of the UCA resting on the droop stop. But compound that force with longer control arms and a coil spring conversion you may increase the chance of ball joint dislocation. In this scenario the weight of the suspension, wheel, spindle etc, is hanging from the extended cantilever of the UCA pivoting on the droop stop. Its all hanging on the upper BJ. If that is not bad enough with a coil over conversion the spring load is added to the equation.

Our YT bro Zack, with his T-100 (who chimed in earlier) had a BJ failure where the ball pulled out of the socket. He had a coil over conversion. He also had a low grade Made in China upper BJ. This BJ had a round opening and not a slot. This was a recipe for disaster.

I would highly recommend limit straps. Connect one end of the limit strap to a point on the LCA and the other end to a point on the frame. By doing this you have just removed the majority of the forces from the upper bj. Now the forces are on the LCA to the strap and onto a dedicated position on the frame.

Limit straps are designed to stretch and control a dynamic force. Like a bungee cord but without the recoil. Get an adjustable clevis and you can fine tune where you set your limits. I connected my limit straps to the factory shock tab on the LCA (double shear, eye mount) and the upper shock mount on the frame (pin mount). You might want to beef up the upper shock mounts as there is a considerable force tugging on them and the pin mount bracket occasionally fails with folks using a shock that is too long acting as a bump stop. I had cut my original upper shock mounts off years ago for the Downey Double shock hoops. I had built some mini shock hoops to restore them, now they are coming in handy for limit strap attachment points.

ToyoTech559

That is some awesome info and a lot of things i never considered. Guess there is more to it than I thought to archive more travel.

chukarhunt

iTrader: (1)

Wow! Thanks for sharing and explaining all that Blaze. A lot of things I never would have thought about. Seems to me like you have it covered.

When I get the time I will probably play around with the truck and see what the different heights look like. Stability is a big thing for me as I typically haul pellets for my stove and a Polaris 700. Need some new springs soon. 15 inches of travel is still very impressive for these trucks, especially when you compare it to others like the Dodge ram runner or ford raptor.

Zpd426

Nice updates! This will help later when i get my combo kit going with the uniballls and heims.

BlazeN8

Zach, yeah this is right up your alley. If you want to use my fittings to build your heim steering assembly let me know (off line) and I will hook you up. As for ball joints to uniballs I know you did the TC lower but hove you figured out the upper.

I had heard the TC lower is more of a strength upgrade and not as much of an angle improvement. Have you compared the stock to TC?

Zpd426

Ya its going slow because I've been busy. I still want to use a emf joint. I may try to order some welded into a plate...

Yes the lower uniball is mostly for strength. The lower uniball will travel more than a ball joint but you won't use it.

BlazeN8

Zach, I saw on your build thread that the TC lower Uni-ball does show more angle, sweet! I recently installed the CV Axles to the Fortyota. The CVs went in super easy. Just rolled the truck into the garage, popped the spindle dust covers, slid the axles into the spindle and rotated them up and onto the flange studs. Then took off the hubs installed the washer and snap ring, put the hubs back together and bam all done. Took about 20 minutes for both sides.

Hear it is at ride height. Don't know why it looks crooked?



Close up at ride height.



Full Droop.

StangBanger

Subbed

BlazeN8

Took a short day trip up the canyon today. A 1999 Taco and 2012 Taco joined me. The 1999 had an E-locker, BFG A/Ts, and some slight suspension upgrades so he did fairly well. The 2012 had open diffs and small street tires so he had problems and eventually caused us to turn back. Overall it was good times. Here are some photos.











The only recent updates to my rig is I reinstalled the old strut frame and aluminum skid plate. It has not been configured to work with the drop bracket / subframe yet but it was a simple bolt on and it is tucked up out of the way so just going to go with it for now.

As for the 1985 P/U nothing new to report except I swapped out the rims and tires. The new set up is 32" BFG A/Ts and SR-5 Factory alloy rims. Still running 1-1/2" wheel adapters. Can't get over how much better the 4.10 gears work with 32s as opposed to the 33s. Street manners are much nicer too.