Tire Restrictions!?
06-11-2009, 05:58 AM
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Tire Restrictions!?
The other day someone said that they went to Franklin Tire here in Yuma to have some work done and that the owner (Dennis Franklin) stated that he wanted to impose a ban on tires like Boggers from being used in our desert trails. It's hard to believe that the owner/off-roader is trying to do something such as this. If it's true, I will do my best to let all the off-road community know about this and maybe it will put a dent in business there.
Here's the email I sent to Franklin Tire in an attempt to get at the facts:
(I am not trying to imply that my source is not telling the truth. I just want to hear it from the horse's mouth so when I start flaming, I'll have solid grounds for doing so.)
Here is the answer:
Here's my response:
His response...
We need to stop people like this. Contact the owner of Franklin Tire, to tell him you disagree: drtire@gmail.com
Here's the email I sent to Franklin Tire in an attempt to get at the facts:
(I am not trying to imply that my source is not telling the truth. I just want to hear it from the horse's mouth so when I start flaming, I'll have solid grounds for doing so.)
Hi.
Rumors are going around that an employee, or owner of Franklin Tire has stated that he is trying to push a ban to have the more aggresive off-road tires from being used in the desert. I would like confirmation on this subject please.
Chris Hoover - Founder of Yuma 4X4
Rumors are going around that an employee, or owner of Franklin Tire has stated that he is trying to push a ban to have the more aggresive off-road tires from being used in the desert. I would like confirmation on this subject please.
Chris Hoover - Founder of Yuma 4X4
Here is the answer:
you are correct. some tires are just too aggressive for some areas of the desert and have a very negative impact. BLM and other land managers are looking at this tire thing so its ether we do something or certain areas will be closed off like a long time. most areas and trails will not be effected, mainly flat lands and desert pavement are the targets.
too dam many people that cant drive and vehicles not configured proper for the desert.
weeds and seeds, dust etc are also part of it.
Pima county has already started banning areas.
more later
--
Dennis R. Franklin
too dam many people that cant drive and vehicles not configured proper for the desert.
weeds and seeds, dust etc are also part of it.
Pima county has already started banning areas.
more later
--
Dennis R. Franklin
Here's my response:
Dennis,
You shouldn't blame the tires, or the entire off-road community for the ill actions of a few idiots. This ban could effect ATV's and UTV's. The guys using paddle tires would be effected.
To each their own. Many of us think BLM is already over managing OUR public lands. Now you are just giving them more fuel. I have a few guys in my 4X4 club that highly disagree with your idea to ban certain tires and they have expressed that if it was true, that you were pushing for this ban, that they would stop doing buisiness with you and go elsewhere. As an avid 4-wheeler, and a activist for all off-roaders, I'll do the same and let others know what you are doing for us, the off-roading community.
_____________________________
Respectfully,
Chris Hoover
Yuma 4X4 Founder and Master Planner
www.yuma4x4.org - The definitive home for all 4X4 enthusiasts!
You shouldn't blame the tires, or the entire off-road community for the ill actions of a few idiots. This ban could effect ATV's and UTV's. The guys using paddle tires would be effected.
To each their own. Many of us think BLM is already over managing OUR public lands. Now you are just giving them more fuel. I have a few guys in my 4X4 club that highly disagree with your idea to ban certain tires and they have expressed that if it was true, that you were pushing for this ban, that they would stop doing buisiness with you and go elsewhere. As an avid 4-wheeler, and a activist for all off-roaders, I'll do the same and let others know what you are doing for us, the off-roading community.
_____________________________
Respectfully,
Chris Hoover
Yuma 4X4 Founder and Master Planner
www.yuma4x4.org - The definitive home for all 4X4 enthusiasts!
well chris i sense and adversarial tone. it shouldn't be that way. so in a nut shell. we have too dam many people who have no idea how to drive, where to drive and have vehicles that are a bit destructive. so i can only say you have two choices. one you get trained in geology and biology take an course in tread lightly, spend a week with the university of Indiana and desert research institute on tire impact and then work with the fed fish and game dept's, BLM and parks dept to come up with a plan to allow access in a responsible manner. or---just have them continue closing down more and more land and more and more restrictions.
you will be surprised to know that even the Yuma Rod and Gun club is supporting option one and not two.
and before you think im some tree hugger im not thats my girl friend. who was until recently, the environmental range manager at YPG. she still works there part time for the university of redlands and dept of army under contract and was just hired by General dynamics as the " Senior Principal scientist". we both just put in our deer tags and are avid off roaders. however we spend our time with the 4 wheeler mag nuts and petersons 4 wheel drive dudes. talk about nuts these take the cake. friday we spend two days in flagstaff with the ariz wildlife federation annual meeting of which i get 15 min to present ideas to keep areas open, my sweety is on the board of directors so i do get a look into the inner workings of proposals.
the best thing we can do is to work with these agencies to keep areas open and act as stewards of the land or we will all loose. if your buds think that they know some thing about tires and soil impact damage im all ears.
on the last note we really need to get you and your group involved
--
Dennis R. Franklin
you will be surprised to know that even the Yuma Rod and Gun club is supporting option one and not two.
and before you think im some tree hugger im not thats my girl friend. who was until recently, the environmental range manager at YPG. she still works there part time for the university of redlands and dept of army under contract and was just hired by General dynamics as the " Senior Principal scientist". we both just put in our deer tags and are avid off roaders. however we spend our time with the 4 wheeler mag nuts and petersons 4 wheel drive dudes. talk about nuts these take the cake. friday we spend two days in flagstaff with the ariz wildlife federation annual meeting of which i get 15 min to present ideas to keep areas open, my sweety is on the board of directors so i do get a look into the inner workings of proposals.
the best thing we can do is to work with these agencies to keep areas open and act as stewards of the land or we will all loose. if your buds think that they know some thing about tires and soil impact damage im all ears.
on the last note we really need to get you and your group involved
--
Dennis R. Franklin
06-11-2009, 06:06 AM
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what the hell? since when do TIRES screw up the environment? and they want to restrict tire design due to 'environmental impact' when there r guys in huge prerunners and sandrails crashin thru bushes and destroying plants, etc ? BS. screw him, i wouldnt do business with him.
08-23-2009, 07:00 PM
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Whether you agree or disagree on specific tires usage or ban, Dennis is actually taking the better approach to keeping trails open.
You have to fight the bureaucrats/activists in their arena instead of just crying foul. When we complain and holler, it comes across as shrill and anecdotal. To really win these kind of fights folks like us are really going to have to get our heads into the fight and come up with a coherent strategy.
You have to fight the bureaucrats/activists in their arena instead of just crying foul. When we complain and holler, it comes across as shrill and anecdotal. To really win these kind of fights folks like us are really going to have to get our heads into the fight and come up with a coherent strategy.
08-23-2009, 07:10 PM
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Well, if the areas are slated to be closed, unless less damaging tires are mandated, I'd say restricting tires is better than closing an area?
Just cuz you're using boggers
Just cuz you're using boggers
08-24-2009, 02:46 AM
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This is about much more than just tires. It's about choice and our freedom to choose one product over another.
If you are willing to compromise your choice of tire, then you better get ready to compromise your choice of food, guns, vehicles, and the list goes on...
If you are willing to compromise your choice of tire, then you better get ready to compromise your choice of food, guns, vehicles, and the list goes on...
08-24-2009, 08:36 AM
#6
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"the best thing we can do is to work with these agencies to keep areas open and act as stewards of the land or we will all loose. if your buds think that they know some thing about tires and soil impact damage im all ears.
on the last note we really need to get you and your group involved"
Mr. Franklin is inviting discussion and asking for your involvement. Perhaps and open mind and civilized meeting are in order. It sounds like he's trying to protect his rights to drive in the desert as well as yours by trying to keep trails open even if it means some compromise. As 86tuning said, better something than nothing. It seems it's easier to keep trails open than to get them reopened after closure.
If you can prove boggers don't do extra damage then you need to do so or find someone who can in order to convince the powers that be to keep trails open to them. I believe that's what Mr. Franklin is asking of you. He's also asking that you and your group add your voices so that you may all be heard in trying to save your trails. The squeaky wheel, so to speak.
on the last note we really need to get you and your group involved"
Mr. Franklin is inviting discussion and asking for your involvement. Perhaps and open mind and civilized meeting are in order. It sounds like he's trying to protect his rights to drive in the desert as well as yours by trying to keep trails open even if it means some compromise. As 86tuning said, better something than nothing. It seems it's easier to keep trails open than to get them reopened after closure.
If you can prove boggers don't do extra damage then you need to do so or find someone who can in order to convince the powers that be to keep trails open to them. I believe that's what Mr. Franklin is asking of you. He's also asking that you and your group add your voices so that you may all be heard in trying to save your trails. The squeaky wheel, so to speak.
08-24-2009, 06:25 PM
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Well said Hab. It's important for individuals and groups like us to make contact with the agencies and make ourselves part of the solution instead of the poster boys for the problem. (The latter is called being defined by your adversary).
Here's a way we can start individually:
"if you want to help contact your state rep to find out who in the legislative staff is heading up OHV issues. (such a big issue, there will be someone) explain to them that there is a solution, education, training, and configuration. give me their mailing address and i will send them ideas we are working on here. also get with your local OHV or 4X4 club for as users they should be working very close with land managers to assist in management of the lands we all so love."
That was what Dennis Franklin recommended to me in his email this morning.
So if 10 of us contact our state reps, that's possibly 10 more legislators we could sway with our opinions verses 10 that are against us.
Let's give it a shot and post up.
Chris, I do think you have a valid point about not giving up our freedoms. I also think if we get enough people with the same energy as you to help focus a group of us on a strategy to positively influence the right government agencies and legislative bodies we can and will keep those freedoms.
This is hardest part for groups like ours. We are pretty good about our own projects and dicussing car parts, but it's harder to keep folks rallied around the more intangibles like ideas and strategies for long period of time.
Here's a way we can start individually:
"if you want to help contact your state rep to find out who in the legislative staff is heading up OHV issues. (such a big issue, there will be someone) explain to them that there is a solution, education, training, and configuration. give me their mailing address and i will send them ideas we are working on here. also get with your local OHV or 4X4 club for as users they should be working very close with land managers to assist in management of the lands we all so love."
That was what Dennis Franklin recommended to me in his email this morning.
So if 10 of us contact our state reps, that's possibly 10 more legislators we could sway with our opinions verses 10 that are against us.
Let's give it a shot and post up.
Chris, I do think you have a valid point about not giving up our freedoms. I also think if we get enough people with the same energy as you to help focus a group of us on a strategy to positively influence the right government agencies and legislative bodies we can and will keep those freedoms.
This is hardest part for groups like ours. We are pretty good about our own projects and dicussing car parts, but it's harder to keep folks rallied around the more intangibles like ideas and strategies for long period of time.
Last edited by GenXr; 08-24-2009 at 06:29 PM.
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08-25-2009, 07:29 AM
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I wasn't going to comment as I am usually misunderstood, but let me straighten this out a little, if I can.
First off, I understand what you all are saying. I understand it is important to work with certain agencies and ignore others. I work closely with BLM and the 3 NWR's in my area.
I refuse to give in to tree huggers and tree hugger organizations (such as Sierra Club).
Dennis Franklin is a tree hugger. I have talked with people that has known him for 20 years and longer. They say he's losing his mind. He claims to have a patent on a LIEF tire that InterCo is going to start making for him when the tire ban goes through.
Some of you might agree with the idea of letting someone place a ban on certain tires, but it won't stop at that. The ban will spread like a virus. It will spread to cover vehicle size and weight. Maybe the ban will grow to include the type of fuel we use. Maybe we will only be able to access trails by electric vehicles so we don't drip petroleum products on to the ground.
Some of you say it is worth giving up certain tires so the trails will stay open. Well, I think you don't do much wheeling! Where I wheel, a LIEF tire won't hold up.
The whole BFG family of tires will be outlawed. The current selections of InterCo tires (Super Swamper) will be outlawed. One member of my club asked Dennis about the TRXUS AT. He said they carry seeds!
Let me ask you guys that agree, "What tire doesn't carry seeds?" It would have to be a slick, or something with very little tread.
First off, I understand what you all are saying. I understand it is important to work with certain agencies and ignore others. I work closely with BLM and the 3 NWR's in my area.
I refuse to give in to tree huggers and tree hugger organizations (such as Sierra Club).
Dennis Franklin is a tree hugger. I have talked with people that has known him for 20 years and longer. They say he's losing his mind. He claims to have a patent on a LIEF tire that InterCo is going to start making for him when the tire ban goes through.
Some of you might agree with the idea of letting someone place a ban on certain tires, but it won't stop at that. The ban will spread like a virus. It will spread to cover vehicle size and weight. Maybe the ban will grow to include the type of fuel we use. Maybe we will only be able to access trails by electric vehicles so we don't drip petroleum products on to the ground.
Some of you say it is worth giving up certain tires so the trails will stay open. Well, I think you don't do much wheeling! Where I wheel, a LIEF tire won't hold up.
The whole BFG family of tires will be outlawed. The current selections of InterCo tires (Super Swamper) will be outlawed. One member of my club asked Dennis about the TRXUS AT. He said they carry seeds!
Let me ask you guys that agree, "What tire doesn't carry seeds?" It would have to be a slick, or something with very little tread.
08-25-2009, 05:59 PM
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Chris, I'm glad you've weighed in with your additional comments. After reading your latest post I'm leaning more against a tire ban. You are right, a tire ban would just be a segway into more restrictive vehicle requirements. One of the trails here in ohio, Richland Furnace, is now closed to Jeeps/trucks/SUVs and only open to OHVs. It's a shame because it was a pretty trail, for ohio.
So I can see where you are coming from.
Carry seeds huh? That's outrageous. Chipmunks carry seeds to. They should get a permit prior to foraging in the park.
So what do you recommend as a course of action? Is this a local issue or broader?
So I can see where you are coming from.
Carry seeds huh? That's outrageous. Chipmunks carry seeds to. They should get a permit prior to foraging in the park.
So what do you recommend as a course of action? Is this a local issue or broader?
08-26-2009, 03:25 AM
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We are off-roaders and we provide tire shops (and other shops) with a big chunk of business. We help put the food on their tables!
Any business, or company, that thinks of doing something as nutty as banning certain tires because they carry seeds, or something so dumb, needs to be boycotted.
Read the first paragraph of Save Our Trails. Save Our Trails is a program I am trying to push in my area. Sadly though, only about 1 in 50 people that own 4X4's seem interested. Getting people passionate about our sport seems hopeless sometimes.
I have people in my club that paid $28,000.00 for '09 Rubicons and still won't lift a finger to help with trail cleanups. With that sort of investment, I would think that being able to use it would be a priority, over sitting at home, watching Squidbillies, or something.
Just to be clear, this isn't a Jeep thing, they wheel the Rubicons, but won't pitch in to help keep trails open.
To me it's like someone who comes to a potluck without contributing a dish.
They use our resources, but refuse to help preserve them. I guess that's the choice they make and we, the true lovers of our sport, just have to work harder to keep our trails open.
Here's the total email conversation between Dennis and myself...
I also encourage people who are into any type of motorsport to join he SEMA Action Network. This organization does everything the the 4WD associations do, but they do it without charging for membership.
The SEMA Action Network is a nationwide partnership of car and truck clubs, and individual enthusiasts (like you) who work together to impact legislation that affects car and truck hobbyists of all kinds. By joining the SAN you will receive up-to-date alerts on hobby-related legislation in your state and across the country. Best of all – it’s free.
08-26-2009, 04:47 AM
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Good posts. They get your points across and establish yourself as more than one of those pot luck ne'er do wells.
The chipmunk theory won't hold up. They don't have the range a truck does and therefore the seeds they spread would be local to the area. Seems it would be the outsider seeds that would be the concern.
As far as tires that carry seeds, it would be more likely for foreign seeds to be up in the undercarriage and suspension than stay in a tire that long. Don't think I'd bring up that point though. Hmmm.
So why don't they build some sort of rough metal grating thing at trail entrances that would shake the seeds off the tires and into a tray underneath that has a seed growth deterrent in it?
Are they banning outside hay and firewood as well?
The chipmunk theory won't hold up. They don't have the range a truck does and therefore the seeds they spread would be local to the area. Seems it would be the outsider seeds that would be the concern.
As far as tires that carry seeds, it would be more likely for foreign seeds to be up in the undercarriage and suspension than stay in a tire that long. Don't think I'd bring up that point though. Hmmm.
So why don't they build some sort of rough metal grating thing at trail entrances that would shake the seeds off the tires and into a tray underneath that has a seed growth deterrent in it?
Are they banning outside hay and firewood as well?
08-28-2009, 03:01 AM
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Has anyone noticed how these radical environmental groups use bogus rhetoric to push their agenda? Like belching cows damaging the O-zone? What about those belching other animals in the bovine family? Buffalo, gazelle, deer, ox, moose, elk, etc... Why cows in particular? Because they are against eating meat! They want to stop the beef industry.
They come up with the same old bogus crap to make off-roading look criminal, when in fact off-roading actually promotes good environmental health.
BOGUS: "Off-roading damages the soil."
Where I live (Yuma, AZ), I have seen, with my own eyes, that a rutted road, driven on regularly, all traces of travel is erased after a good rain. The ruts are smoothed out and travel is made easier. This isn't true in all cases, but I have seen more natural washouts than man made washouts (I wheel that back country in my area, at least 3 -4 days out of the week).
BOGUS: "Off-roading is not good for the environment."
Regular travel on trails create fire breaks that help stop fires from spreading, plus gives access to fire fighters when there is fires. What's more damaging? 4X4's running on trails, or forest fires burning everything in it's path?
BOGUS: "All 4-wheel drives are gas guzzlers."
My Toyota get's about 15 - 17 mpg in town and about 20 - 22 on the highway, and my truck is carbureted! My 1984 Toyota gets better gas mileage than the 2009 Chevy Silverado XFE (Xtra Fuel Economy). With an EPA estimated 21 MPG highway! Where's the "green"? It's leaving your wallet to buy tree hugger based rhetoric.
These are only the bogus points from the top of my head. I know if I spent 30 minutes on Google, I could find a lot more.
Last edited by azredliner; 08-28-2009 at 03:06 AM.
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