dcg9381

So I get asked this a lot: "How much power can I get out of turbo charging my "stock" 22re?"

In the past, I've had to reference some somewhat undocumented results, as I've never tried it.

I've been troubleshooting dyno and tuning issues with my motor. As it turns out, my pistons were incorrectly designed (someone typo'd my head CC) and I'm running ~9.4:1 compression ratio motor.


I've been driving this thing successfully for about a year, but haven't had much luck pushing it harder than about 10 psi.

I finally got it on a dyno (which lead me to chase the compression problem) and the results (dynojet):

1) 130 rear wheel HP / 188 ft/lbs torque.


Sounds like stock?
Typical results for a NA 22RE are 88 rear wheel hp/ 115 ft/lbs of torque.


Actual flywheel HP, approximating a 30% driveline loss (transmission, transfer case, etc): 169 hp, 244 ft/lbs torque. These are the net gains that could be compared to book HP.


Torque curve is good, peaks at about 3500.

Other notes, you're looking a 92-93 octane only. Running on the street (safely) you're going to be limited to about 7psi. Going above that, no appreciable gain as you're pulling too much timing. Want a larger gain, run E85. I haven't dyno'd it, but I'd estimate you'll pick up another 10-15 hp.

I'll scan the dyno in one of these days.. My head is going in for "correction" to adjust for the piston design mistake. I'm going to take the truck down to 7.5:1 CR.

norcalsvx

what about meth injection ? and are you running a IC?
http://www.snowperformance.net/

dcg9381

I am running an IC, which probably has very limited impact on a dyno as I didn't have a lot of air flow over it.

No water injection.

Torco, E85, or higher octane fuel can be used to improve results, but I'd like to qualify this for street use.

tc

Why lower the compression? You're just gonna end up at the same place by running more boost, and it costs money!

Sounds like you've got a pretty sweet deal as it is - maybe look at water/meth induction and/or an intercooler to reduce any detonation issues you're having - will pay off a lot more than the head work!

camo31_10.50

i've done alot of research on E85...and alllll of the research that i have found...said that E85 LOWERS HP and TORQUE...and it lowers fuel mileage...but it burns a hell of alot cleaner...but this was on big V8 flex fuel vehicles...not small turbo'd 4bangers...correct me if im wrong please..lol

minerdude1

Actually, on a turbocharged 4 cylinder, you can get a lot more hp and torque out of e85. My background is in Hondas, and a friend of mine is pushing 600 hp on a turbo dohc 1.8 L honda motor with pistons and rods on e85. It is a strictly drag car, because gas mileage is terrible, but it does cost less per gallon. Why would you think it lowers hp and torque when you have 85% ethanol, up from the 10% in regular-super unleaded?
http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/s...ad.php?t=45931

Here is a link to a twin turbo v8 he tuned on e85 for over 1100 rwhp
http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/s...ad.php?t=47722

dcg9381

I need to lower the compression to take advantage of my head work, custom cam, and get the turbo to operate in it's efficiency range. The trade off is low end torque (off idle) for more top end power. It's viable to have these things up to the 200+ hp range.

These engines tend to be more efficient (volumetric efficiency) in the torque range when boosted.

I have an IC, I've run without one and the results on intake temps are dramatic. I've also run E85 - and 100 octane which allow me to dial up the boost and more power - a bit of a crutch instead of running the motor in the right boost + compression ratio. At this point, it's either go up from 100 octane or start dialing back the compression and get the motor back to where it was *designed* to operate before a vendor did a "oops" on my pistons.


I can live with the thing over 200hp.. :-)



That's a pretty common misconception. E85 has less energy than gasoline, so technically dropping it into the tank of an NA car that's not otherwise tuned to take advantage of it, it's true. With tuning on an NA vehicle, the power comes out to be about a wash - more timing, but less energy, and less MPG. Turbo setups can take advantage of the high octane - push more boost, more fuel - at the cost of MPG.. Results in the turbo world can be impressive.

minerdude1

what compression where you shooting for when you did your build? I think stock comp. in my motor is like 7.5:1, which is quite low in the boosted world, and can handle a lot of boost. I read that the stock 22rtec motor can handle upwards of 300 hp stock, but obviously with upgraded fuel system, and larger turbo.

norcalsvx

have your read through toysport

http://www.toysport.com/technical%20...tech_notes.htm

camo31_10.50

o ok....well the flex fuel vehicles are not set up to run on E85, they are set up to run on regular gasoline...BUT they can run E85...now if people were to build a vehicle designed to run on E85 then it would get more power...toque..and better mileage...the flex-fuel vehicles are not MADE to run on E85...but they can....idk how clear that is to everyone else..its a little bit confusing..but u get the idea..lol thanks minerdude1

dcg9381

My understanding of how "flex" vehicles work is this:
There is a device in the fuel line that detects the amount of alcohol in the fuel system.. IE - if you fill up on half a tank with E85 / half gasoline, you don't need to be as rich as you do as fuel alone.

The fuel map is adjusted per fuel mix. Timing maps are also adjusted per mixtures to help restore some of the power to the vehicle under E85 and take advantage of the higher octane rating, but probably can't recover all of the power loss.. It's going to depend on engine design.


If I took two naturally aspirated motors, run one on E85 and one on gasoline - the only difference being tuning, I could probably get the E85 motor to put down very close to the same amount of power as the gas motor. (this is the flex fuel case). Note, mileage would be worse.

To design a naturally aspirated motor for E85 use, I'd design it to be high compression and could probably crank a few more ponies out of it, but internal changes would be required. In most cases mileage is still worse.

Turbos can "adjust" their compression by more or less boost.. There's some beauty in that.

tc

Compression cures all ills in an internal combustion motor. Since the octane in E85 is higher, and it takes less air to burn the same amount of alcohol (or the other way to think of it is for the same amount of air drawn into the cylinder, you can burn more alcohol), you can get dramatically more power if you design the motor to take advantage of it - that's why drag racers run alcohol.


Being that boost from the turbo is "free" why do you care how efficient it is?

dcg9381

When I designed the motor and specified pistons, I wanted an 8:1 motor, which is probably considered a "mid compression" motor.

I have the opportunity to get it right, I'll probably go between 7.5 and 8:1.

Ideally, I'll have a boost controller (in-cab) and be able to run the truck at mild boost (say, 7psi) and 87 octane. I can go up one setting from there, 13-14 psi, and see how that does...

I'm just happy to have this sorted out.. I had great difficulties tuning above 10psi - tried, E85, 100LL, and 100 octane unleaded.. At least I know why now!

tc

Oh - I think it VERY interesting to note that you are making more than 3.slow power ... probably getting better gas mileage, and as you note still have some room for improvement.

How much do you have in your turbo setup?

dcg9381

I have silly money in the setup, but remember that I'm trying to go over 200hp.. I'm just happy to have figured out why I'm having tuning issues.


The point of my post was some sort of indication about the kind of results you could get if bolting on a turbo to a 22RE. If I was going to do this on a budget, here's what I'd be expecting to spend:

1) Turbo manifold $250 (ebay special) - $600 (steedspeed/LC Engineering)
2) Garrett turbo, $200 (good shape used) - $500 (new)
3) Megasquirt - pre-built, $375
4) Plumbing for the turbo - oil lines, intake plumbing, $200
5) Intercooler - $30 (used/ebay) - $250 (something new)
6) Exhaust work - $50 (DIY) - $XXX (having it done locally)

Probably add a new set of injectors in there for the added power, $50 (used).

Note, this is doing it yourself, no one is making a pre-fabbed solution or kit...