SPARKS89

iTrader: (1)

So here's my problem. And before anybody says anything, yes I did quite a bit of searching.

I hit a deer a little over a month ago on the interstate at about 70 MPH. I was still able to drive the truck, but had to replace the bumper, grille, core support, etc. Radiator was fine, just body damage.

So the truck was sitting in the driveway for a while since the front end was torn apart for repairs. Before I tore into it I still drove the truck a couple of times and it started fine. After sitting for about 2 weeks I got everything back together to the point where I could fire it back up. Nothing. Just click. Not a repetitive click, like a low battery. Just a single click. After doing some testing I decided it was the starter. I got a new one, slapped it on and fired it up just fine. Went for a drive that evening....everything was great. A couple days later I go out to start it so it can idle for a little while and....click. Tested things again, pulled the new starter off and took it to Advance. They tested it and it smoked on the machine so they gave me a new one. Took that back home, put it on and still the same thing. I was so sure it was the starter that I looked up the brand online and found nothing but horrible reviews. I picked up another starter at NAPA before leaving for Thanksgiving weekend. Today I get back home, put the new starter from NAPA on and......click. Exact same thing! So now I get to digging deeper. I had already checked voltage at the starter and had the battery tested, but I did it again. 12.4V on the starter wire and 11.4V on the signal wire to the starter solenoid when the key is turned. Checked ground continuity from the starter casing all the way back to the battery negative terminal. Redid the ground connections on the engine block on the front, lower part of the block and also on the battery terminal. Checked the grounds on the back of the head and the body too. Those look good. I went searching around on 4crawlers stuff that I had printed out and tested the circuit open relay both in and out of the truck. It tested good both times. I don't think it's the ECU (everything else in the truck seems to be fine and how could that stop the starter from turning anyway???). I messed with the ignition switch some before it got dark and so far everything looks good. I'll finish messing with that tomorrow to be sure.

I don't understand why a good starter (with good voltage from a strong battery), with a good ground path will turn all day long in my hand but not once I put it on the truck........

Things already checked:
battery (voltage and CCA)
the starter itself
power to starter
CO relay
power at solenoid when key is turned
grounds

Any help is greatly appreciated! I'd like to have it running again before any serious snow hits.

RAD4Runner

'Truck won't start. Please read before giving me hell...."

HELL! J/K. LOL!

You jumped to conclusion and spent too much time and money on the starter.

ECU and C.O.R. have absolutely nothing to do with cranking, unless they're shorting to ground and draining your battery- then you can say it is related to everything.

Because nothing is wrong with the starter in the first place and you started replacing things without verifying it was the cause of the problem in the first place.

Recommendations:

1. Stop. Take a deep breath, have a beer and stop throwing parts, time and money into the wrong things.
   
2. Understand how cranking system works before you do anything else. See my sig
   
3. Restore everything to what it,
   
4. try this simple tool to isolate the problem area, into starter solenoid and upstream, solenoid and downstream.
   
5. Report back what you see, feel, hear. Exactly what it is that you hear clicks? No guessing please. Feel and hear the click.

Toyota~Boy

iTrader: (2)

You need to cross the starter over while installed on the truck and see if it cranks over and starts that way

RAD4Runner

How do you "cross the starter over?"

SPARKS89

iTrader: (1)

Hey man, thanks for that. I haven't finished reading it all yet, but I'm working on it. The click is coming from the CO relay and also from the starter solenoid itself. I've felt both when the key was turned. I've checked the diagrams in my Haynes manual for the starting system. One thing that doesn't make sense is that the black (B) coming off the ignition switch is supposed to go to the solenoid while the black-yellow (B-Y) goes to the EFI, BUT I have continuity from the B-Y to the starter solenoid when it's just sitting there. The way I read it, it should be the black (B) wire that has continuity, but it doesn't. Also, the signal wire at the solenoid has 11.4V when the key is turned, but when nothing is on it has continuity with the battery negative terminal.

SPARKS89

iTrader: (1)

I tried that. I had the starter on the truck and put a jumper from the solenoid connection to the +12V terminal that's fed directly from the battery. Nothing......

That makes me thing the bendix on the starter is getting jammed up, but how? I know it turns. Is it possible the bendix is coming in contact with something on or around the flywheel/flexplate?

RJR

Sounds like it's a mechanical problem, not electrical. A bad tooth on the flywheel, or a locked up engine. That's also probably why one of the starters smoked on the tester after you had installed it - starters get VERY hot when power is applied when they're stalled.

Try putting a wrench on the crankshaft pulley and try turning the engine when it seems to be jammed. If you can turn it, REMOVE THE WRENCH and try starting it again. If it cranks, it's a good indication something mechanical is getting jammed up.

JohnnyCanuck

can you push/bomb start it?

SPARKS89

iTrader: (1)

I checked that. Sorry I didn't include that info in the OP. Looks like I forgot a couple things. The engine isn't locked up and from what I can see there are no teeth missing from the flexplate. The flexplate is only about a year and half old (not that that means a whole lot).

RAD4Runner

C.O. clicking is normal.. Does not affect cranking
re; Wires:
It would help if you posted your schematic. Too many year-models, threre might be differences between wiring color codes.

Nothing as in no solenoid click?

If solenoid clicks but sounds like it needs a testosterone shot, check your cranking circuit to see if it has the mistake electrical engineering mistake present in Mid-86 to 88 22RE's? That BOO-BOO will cause insufficient power to solenoid explained here.

If solenoid clicks energetically (plunger actuate and tries to close solenoid contacts, but starter motor does nothing, quite possible that your soleoid contacts are bad. See 4Crawler's website on that.

If starter motor hums or struggles to turn, possible that it's mechanical like RJR says below.

SPARKS89

iTrader: (1)

I haven't tried that. My driveway is pretty level. I have a hill in the yard that MIGHT be big enough to let me roll it to the point where I can pop the clutch to start it, but I'd only have one shot at it and if that doesn't work then I'm stuck facing down into the woods at the bottom of the hill in the yard. I'd rather just fix it where it is. Thanks for the input tho!

SPARKS89

iTrader: (1)

I have the same schematic that's shown in your link from your sig.


Not a thing from the solenoid. I'm not totally satisfied with the connection I had on the solenoid terminal. It was just a wire bent to make contact with the spade, but it's what I had at the time. I'm going to grab a female spade tomorrow from work and redo that test.

I don't believe the solenoid contacts are bad. The starter is new/rebuilt (which I know is no guarantee) and bench tested just fine. Very crisp and no hesitation.

RAD4Runner

OK, Like I mentionrd above^^
Then...try this simple tool to isolate the problem area, into starter solenoid and upstream, solenoid and downstream.

Gevo

I just looked at RadRunner's simple tool thread, and it will help you identify the problem. Basically, you're making a jumper cable.

However, I am leaning toward a mechanical problem too.. because you said that the solenoid is at 11.4V while the key is turned to the 'crank' position and the starter gets the 12.4 Volts at the same key position. This means that the power is getting to your starter. The solenoid DOES take some juice to click, so crappy gorunds is still a possibility.. basically RadRunner's little jumper will clear that up.

If I were you, I'd take the harness cable off of the solenoid before I tried to jump it.. to isolate the 'test' as best as possible.

Gevo

OH, Also Spark, i meant to mention.. the wiring diagrams in the Hayne smanual.. yah.. take that with a 'grain of salt'.. seriously useless for me when I really needed it. I mean, the model it's for is'nt specific.. instead it says "most late models"... ? what? lol.

SPARKS89

iTrader: (1)

Haha, yeah I know. I'm an electrician by trade, but that thing makes no sense to me. Seems like there's too many lines. I don't do a whole lot of wiring on cars and trying to follow that schematic makes it worse. I know how electricity works, but this one has me stumped. For one thing, it shows a starter relay. I can't find one on my truck anywhere and I've heard from some people that there IS one and from others that there isn't. It depends on the year/model you have. I've checked and redone the grounds so I know the connections are good. One thing I did notice on 4crawler's info I have is that if the solenoid voltage is more than .5V difference from the battery voltage that your starter relay (or something else in the circuit) is causing too much resistance for the solenoid to pull in enough to engage the starter motor. In my case (with no starter relay) that could only leave the ignition switch that would cause resistance. I didn't know the starter solenoid was that touchy about the voltage. I would think getting 11.4V on a solenoid rated for 12V would be good. It's only 5% lower than the rating so in my mind that should be good. The wiring is good and I ran out of light last night before I could finish messing with the ignition switch.

I'm making the jumper for the solenoid today so I can test that tonight. I'm going to take resistance readings on the ignition switch tonight too. I want to fix the truck back to stock and then I can change things knowing what I have to work with. I like RAD4Runner's project of the kill-switch, but since I don't have a starter relay I would either have to install a relay OOOOORRRRRRR just have a starter switch like in NASCAR!!! All I'd have to do for that is use a momentary contact switch rather than an OFF/ON style switch. I think that would be pretty cool.

RAD4Runner

You measured 12.4V at terminal where starter able connects to source side of solenoid contacts. 12.4V is actual battery voltage. What starter motor really gets you cannot measure because it is internal to assembly.

on 22RE first-gen runners 86 and later, it is inside right fender next to injector resistor. On other years (3.0 V6), it may be inside Fuse block in engine compartment. Wherever it is, I bet it has the electrical engineering blunder, meaning 12Amps needed to energize solenoid pass ST1 contact of ignition switch, the part the relay is meant to protect in the first place -DUH!

Correct; I cannot stress the electrical engineering blunder enough, with or without starter relay.

Correct, and the loooong wire. But I really think your year has the relay. Check with other owners of 89 22RE's Like grego92?

My special service tool will answer that question. Got a DC ammeter? Measure current through that brown wire to solenoid coil. Should be around 12Amps. Compare currents between standard starting and using that SST.

If absolutely sure you do not have a relay, do it like KidV on T4R.org

or like a Prius? LOL!

SPARKS89

iTrader: (1)

I can't find one anywhere. It's not mounted on the inside of the fender, inside the fuse block under the hood nor is there one above, behind or anywhere around the ECU down at the passenger foot area. It's nowhere to be found. Also, the fact that I'm getting continuity from the connection right there at the ignition switch all the way down to the solenoid wire at the stater tells me there is no relay. If there was that continuity would be broken because the relay coil wouldn't have been pulling that circuit closed while I was doing that continuity test.

It seems to me they overcomplicated a few things.

I'll see about sending him a PM and asking. Thanks for the info.

lol, ohhhhhhh that one stung a little.

So I used a simple wire with a spade connector on it and hooked that to the solenoid spade, touched the other end of the wire to the battery terminal aaaaannnnnddddd click. SAME DAMN THING. It's something mechanical with the starter engaging the teeth on the flexplate. I pulled the starter off again (I can do it in about 2 minutes now!) and took a good look with a flashlight. There's a single tooth on the flexplate that has a shiny spot on it where it looks like the starter is trying to engage but can't because it's hitting that tooth. It may be a coincidence that that one spot is shiny, but not likely. I bench tested the starter again while I had it out just to be sure and it's working fine. I reinstalled it again and same thing still. I double-checked the part number and it fits my truck......1989, 22re, manual transmission, 4x4....everything. The only thing I can think is that it's a manufacturing problem where it's not built to line-up with the teeth on the flexplate correctly, but that would make 2 different brands with the same problem. I'm looking for physical specs on the Toyota brand v. others to see if there's a difference.

I have no idea what else it could be. If ANYBODY has ANY ideas I'd love to hear them.

RAD4Runner

Try push starting with starter out, to move that tooth out of the way, and eliminate the possibility that your crank/engine is locked up?

RJR

Are you sure the starter is seating correctly on its mounting surface? If there was something holding it slightly out of line or not allowing the starter to seat fully (a raised burr on the surface, leftover gasket material, or something similar), it could cause enough gear tooth misalignment to cause a lockup.