mountainbrew

86 Runner 22re 5spd 4.88 (kinda)

A week and a half ago I regeared my truck, and decided to put a fully assembled 3rd with an ARB in it. It was by far my biggest, most expensive project to date. I put the rear in without any issues, and started the break in process.

So yesterday I finally found the time to wire up the compressor (also arb) and plumb the air line. Everything was going smoothly, I wired the electrical and switches, and fired the compressor up. Turned over for a few seconds and then shut off when it got to pressure, no leaks, awesome.

Then I flipped the switch for the rear locker, the compressor ran for way longer than I expected so I shut it off and proceeded to check for leaks between the solenoid and the third member bulkhead fitting. Found none using both my ears and soapy water at every connection as well as along the entire line...nothing.

So I turned it on once again and this time let it run for about 8-10 seconds when I heard a very loud pop that sounded like it came from the rear axle. It had, the sound was in fact my diff breather exploding. So I (and trail gear) assumed the copper line inside the 3rd had been compromised. Unbelievable.

So I called Trail gear and after talking to one guy, and waiting on hold for 15 min, he sent me to tech support who said I had probably broked the plastic air line. When I explained that it would be tough to get enough air pressure to rupture a diff breather though a "broken plastic line" upstream of the third, he sent me back to sales.

Again, sat on hold for 10-15min and the sales guy said it was likely was damaged during installation and I would need to pull the third and have it shipped back to them for diagnosis. The whole reason I bought the fully assembled third was for convenience, I use this truck every day and dont have 2 weeks for them to figure out what happened. Furthermore, I have to rent space to do this kind of work, which is another reason I bought the assembled third. So I could pull the old one and swap the new one in with having the down time of installing gears, setting R&P, etc.

I asked if I could pull the third and bring it to one of their dealers instead to at least have the issue diagnosed, and all he kept saying was we need our mechanics to look at it to decide if it was broken during installation. I dont know much about cars (yet) but I install and maintain draft systems for a living so I work around refrigeration lines every day, I know how delicate copper tubing is.

I really wanted them to let me bring it to a local 4 Wheel Parts to have it looked at but again and again they refused, saying it has to be sent back to Cali. I was furious, beyond reason, because now they want me to pull the third, reinstall the old one, send the new one back for who knows how long, wait for a diagnosis and fix, then pull the old one... again. and reinstall the new one...again. I also mentioned the fact that my old 3rd was a different gear ratio and that was one of the other reason I bought the assembled third, regearing. He asked me if I had manual hubs, I said yes, and he said that I could just run the truck in 2wd with the hubs unlocked. Ugh, no sh%$, anyone who is taking apart their axles hopefully knows that, but I didnt get a 4runner for its legendary rear wheel drive.

I read the warranty policy, so I get it, they are within their rights, but it still makes me livid that I have to do this install two more times than I should have to. And what really ticked me off was that this dude kept repeating that it was likely broken during installation. So now my concern is they are going to get the part, decide I broke it and then charge me for a repair plus two way shipping. Either way my truck is down for two weeks Im guessing.

One way or another, I know they are following their stated warranty policy, so I cant bitch, even though I want to go hulk smash on everything. So then I guess this is just a word of warning for everyone looking to buy something expensive for their beloved Toyota. I ignored (stupidly) everyone that told me to avoid "fail gear" but I figured all they had to do was set an R&P and plumb a line, something they have obviously done many times. How could they mess that up? Oh, ok.

So what do I do now? All I wanted them to do was let me bring the pulled third to a local dealer (my labor, my transportation) so that they could figure out if it was my fault. And if it was I pay for everything, no risk to them. If it wasnt my fault, they give me the $ they wouldve spent on shipping ad I put it towards the repair and cover the difference myself (my value of not having my car out of service for 2 weeks). I think I am going to do that anyway at my own expense so that I am not without my DD for a few weeks. But what I really want to do is simply return it and buy one from Marlin Crawler for a few $ more, like I shouldv'e in the first place, but again Im worried TG will get the return and say its my fault. Soooo, I think I have decided to just repair it on my own $ so I can keep it fast and in town. That $ would have paid for the difference between the TG and the MC, but I would be doing a few less installs, which to me is worth way more than $150.

I know I am angry, biased and whiny. I know TG is following their policy. I know many people have been satisfied spending $1600 with them. I didnt.

Ill shut up now

edit: forgot I was in tech forum, meant to post in product reviews. My appologies, can someone please move?

AZkid

Bummer, I am not farmiliar with ARB lockers. I have had issues with TG before and they have always taken care of me. They have sent me replacement parts free of charge with next day shipping.

TURBOrunnerNM

I feel you, man. However, don't jump to conclusions with Marlin Crawler. They might have a better reputation than TG when it comes to product reliability, but I had 2 horror experiences with MC, even after spending $3k on rear and front differentials. I installed my 3rd and it starting whining like crazy a day later. I called MC over 10 times before I got through to anyone. They said it was my fault and asked me to send it back. After they got it back, they said they installed the carrier bearings incorrectly and covered the repair. THEY DIDN'T REFUND MY $80 SHIPPING! Then, I got it back and the SAME THING HAPPENED AGAIN. My truck, like yours, was and is still a daily driver. My truck sat on blocks for 6 weeks while I rode my dirt bike to work! They never covered any of my shipping costs, nor did they offer any sort of apologies. I think you're correct in your plan of action. Don't bother sending it back. I think spending a few more $$$ out of your own pocket at a local shop will save you the BS from having to deal with shipping and that wonderment of "Will I get reimbursed or not?"

Cheers

muddpigg

iTrader: (1)

That sucks!!!

I don't know if it would be worth considering but if you pay another shop to work on it. Will it void the rest of the warrantee for the other parts in dif??? Bearings and r&p... May just be food for thought.

Yotard

Before you put it in it is a good idea to bench test the locker. You can do it with any air compressor doesn't have to be your onboard air. Arb has their instruction manual online on how to bench test after assembly but before install.

mountainbrew

You're absolutely right, I have no experience with them and shouldn't assume they would be any better. I have however been impressed with the knowledge level demonstrated in a lot of Mike's (I think that's his name) posts.

Didn't even think about that, I'll look into it, it would make sense that third party work would void the warranty, no one wants to guarantee someone else's work.

I should have, and will when I eventually put a front ARB

I have had some time to cool off, I am just going to pull the dang thing tomorrow afternoon, bench test it, see where the leak is at, see if I can fix it myself, if not have someone local repair it, put it back in, and then go play with my new toy. I am still very disappointed in the plumb job, but at the end of the day it's a breakage that cannot be repaired with bitching. Just another thing to pull apart and see how it works I guess.

Mr. No SPAM

You are probably best off taking it into your own hands at this point, assuming you don't have problems with the ring/pinion or something else that would require further assistance from the supplier (TG). I also understand them wanting to see the thing themselves so they can make the determination as to what caused the failure.

I built and installed my third with ARB air locker not too long ago. I actually had to install it a couple times - touched the copper line to the axle going in which bent it a little and the ring gear snagged it. Pulled it and re-routed the copper line so it was lower down and less likely to interfere with the axle housing during install. I couldn't get it in by myself without putzing up the copper line. Had to have a helper keep it steady. Weighs about 60 pounds with the locker.

ARB instructions mention the importance of having as little tension on the air fitting from the copper line as possible. The line should be routed as perfectly as you can get it so it won't end up pushing the fitting one way or the other, which I assume might cause the air fitting seals to fail. Even the slightest bump on that line could knock it out of whack, throwing off all that careful adjustment. Yeah, I know it . . ;-)

Curious to see what you find on tear down.

In general it's probably a good idea to be certain the axle has a good vent when installing an air locker. :-)

mountainbrew

Rooms the third out yesterday. The air line wasn't connected to the bulkhead fitting on the case, so it was free to move around and got snagged by the ring gear. So with all the movement it also broke right at the collar. I'm assuming this means I need a new seal housing.... Really not happy about all of this

Mr. No SPAM

One thing I noticed during one of my failed installs was that if the copper line was out of whack I could hear the rubbing inside while rotating the assembly. I had the drain and fill plugs out so I could put my ear to them and listen while spinning it to make sure everything was clear before running it. On the worst install the ring snagged the line and I couldn't spin it all without feeling the resistance and knowing something wasn't right, so out it came.

I guess the lesson there is buy two or three diff housing gaskets and be prepared to do it more then once if you find problems after a plug-in.

Final install went so much better after re-routing the line, and with help. It was a straight shot back, no tipping the assembly required to get the line into the axle before the rest of it or anything like that.

As for the air collar/seal housing with the line broken off, I bet you could remove the piece that's stuck in the collar by melting out the old solder and soldering in a fresh section of line. I'd use a propane torch and silver solder with flux like you would if working on copper plumbing. You got enough of that tubing left to use? Pretty sure the seals themselves don't cost a lot.

A new collar assembly might not cost a lot, though.

Thanks for keeping us posted! Hope my failures and what I learned from them are helpful.

muddpigg

iTrader: (1)

Sound like a failure on TG's part.

Mr. No SPAM

If the copper line gets snagged by the ring gear it will pull out of the bulkhead fitting easily. It's held in the fitting by an o-ring that's under tension, that's all.

On my failed install where the line was snagged by the ring gear it pulled the line out of the fitting by me rotating the assembly by hand.

Took me three times to get it right. That copper line has got to be darn near perfect and it's super easy to touch it to something going into the axle.

mountainbrew

Thanks for all the replies, I had read about how delicate the install is. I had a buddy under there with me making sure the line didn't touch anything.
Either way I just dropped it off at a local 4x4 shop, they had a replacement air seal/ copper line. They quoted me 2hrs to get it installed, I figured it would be easier than that based on videos I watched, but he said they have to set the backlash. Oh well, I just learned a very expensive lesson.

Mr. No SPAM

So backlash was off from TG's assembly? That's an issue in itself. I'd also have the current shop measure bearing pre-load, just to make sure that's OK too. Or perhaps the current shop is just taking the time to go over it and do some CYA before installing something they didn't put together - they might not be reacting to something they found wrong. That would make sense.

Sometimes letting an expert, someone setup to do the job efficiently, makes sense and can remove a lot of stress. And at least you didn't spend the dough shipping the 3rd back and forth again.

Let us know how it works out!

EDIT: How much for the collar?

mountainbrew

Collar is about $60. And no, I did not mean to insinuate that the backlash was off from TG, he said they had to reset the backlash after they install the collar. I thought you installed the collar last, but I know very little about diffs

Mr. No SPAM

The collar is last, for sure, installed after backlash is done and the ring clips are in place. You can remove it and put it back on without touching backlash.

See my post above. I edited because I see there most likely was no problem with TG's assembly (it would surprise me). I bet the new shop is doing some CYA on an unknown item. I too would want to make sure it was put together right before installing it.

mountainbrew

Hmmm.... That's interesting. The guy said that they needed to set the backlash after they installed the collar, that's why they quoted me two hours. I really just wanted them to run the line and connect it to the bulkhead. I hope they're not taking me for a ride

Mr. No SPAM

Ah, so they're not installing the assembled diff into the axle for you (my assumption based on two hours labor)? 2 hours for putting the collar on and running the line? I too would question their motives. You might consider just buying the collar and doing it yourself, if it's not too late. Routing and cutting that thing isn't so bad a job.

But, if they were to install the diff into the axle and have you drive it from their shop I can understand them wanting to be thorough. It would create a sticky situation to install an unknown unit and it end up having problems not related to your install.

EDIT: I still think it's some kind of CYA to make sure you don't come back with problems they had nothing to do with (bearing pre-load, backlash/mesh problems, etc). You might ask them to provide their measured settings for backlash and bearing pre-load, since you'd be paying them to check that stuff out.

dropzone

iTrader: (6)

I would have shipped it back to Trail-Gear, their local dealers didn't assemble the third.
Doing a rear third install is easy. Yes having to do it a few times is a pain but it isn't a pain like pulling an engine.

ZUK

iTrader: (1)

Hmm. Like Mr. No Spam said, they normally don't have to touch backlash. That's one of the issues with an ARB install......such a PITA to get it in the hole without tweaking or dinging the soft copper line.
ZUK

Munkymag

Thanks i too was looking into ordering one from marlin crawler. Now i really want too just get an auto locker and just deal with what it brings sounds like ARB is just that much more of ah head ach ?? What too do.