Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Need some help guys. I'm not a total newbie to the 22RE, but I'm no mechanic either. I rebuilt this engine in 2012 and it's been running fine. It still does as a matter fact, but I can't get the timing set correctly. I need to get the timing done prior to going for my Cali smog test. I thought I fixed it after adjusting my valves, but when I checked it again this morning I'm still off, but not as much anymore.

Here's a little history:

I couldn't get my timing set, I was showing about 40 BTDC jumpered and 30 BTDC without the paper clip plugged in. I spent morning to evening focused on the TPS but got nowhere. I have 3 used TPS and swapping them did nothing. All three idle down when jumpered.

Next morning I adjust my rockers and bam! I'm spot on with my timing again. My rockers were waaayyy out of spec. Those that should have been tight at TDC were loose and likewise when I did the full rotation to do the others...both intake and exhaust were out of spec. The worse was the #4 piston exhaust side. I'm running an engnbldr 268 cam and have it set at 7 and 10. They recommend 7 and 9.

Today I check the timing again before I go off to get smogged. And now I'm at about 25 BTDC and about 14 jumpered. I checked my valve settings again and they were the same way I set them.

I finally start to eye balling my TDC and this is what I come across. I've read about "jumping" a tooth and all that, but I just can't see how that could happen? I would read those posts and just think they didn't have it set correctly to begin with. Does this and can this really happen? See my photos below and tell me what you think. My crank pulley mark is on the "0" mark, my cam gear mark is after 12 o'clock and my rotor seems too close to 12 rather than 11 o'clock.





If I am actually a "tooth" off now, how the heck can I put it back without tearing down?

scope103

At some point did you remove the distributor? The helical gear has 13 teeth, so if you are off one tooth it's about 28°. Even though the timing chain is all correct.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Yes, I have pulled the distributor out and I put it back in the way the manual states, something I'm missing?

I would love it to just be the distributor positioning

d-wood

I don't know if this would help but I would manually put it at tdc. I would actually do it with the distributor cap off and the valve cover off just so I could make sure I'm all lined up on my shiny links. Plus you'll see that groove I'm fixin to tell u about in the next sentence.
Now I read that you pulled the dizzy. If you got everything lined up and you put the dizzy back in then there's a little groove that should be just in the front after you stab it. I tried finding you a pic but can't find it.

an1176

While you have your valve cover off check the drivers side timing guide. Mine broke and caused my timing to jump like yours. You can take the cam sprocket off and rotate your cam back to the mark and it'll be in time. If you do that don't forget to adjust your valves again. Good luck.

millball

This certainly is not possible.

The cam and cam sprocket can only go together one way.

The sprocket must be disengaged from the chain and the sprocket moved 1 tooth counterclockwise in relation to the chain..

scope103

Like this:
http://web.archive.org/web/201101242.../5distribu.pdf

RJR

Some of you are talking about valve timing when the problem the OP is having is with ignition timing. Two different things.

Most likely cause, based on other similar experiences related on this forum, is that the harmonic damper on the crankshaft is slipping and giving false information as to where TDC is. Take out the #1 plug, insert a wooden dowel or soda straw, and manually turn the engine until you find TDC. Then note where the timing mark is. If it's off you need a new harmonic damper.

I suspect the fact that the timing "corrected itself" when you adjusted the rockers is purely coincidental, since there is no way the rockers can affect ignition timing. If your harmonic damper is slip-sliding around, the ignition timing may change every time you look at it. It's more likely that the reason you "needed" to adjust the rockers is that you weren't really at TDC due to the slipped harmonic damper.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for everyone's input. I tried the distributor thing, but my install was fine. If I moved it a tooth I couldn't even get it started.

I might have led everyone astray, but I believe RJR is correct. Although I didn't check using his method yet (sprinkling and windy today so had to call it a day). The harmonic balancer is a dorman, not oem. I replaced my OEM because of the "groove" from the seal when I rebuilt. I don't know if the rubber separated or the metal crankshaft key broke and it slipped that way.

I was able to get the crankshaft bolt off, and using an inspection mirror and flashlight, this is what I saw. I think the two "lines" at the end of the shaft itself are where it should be and represents where the key should be lined up with. You can see my groove on the balancer where it should slip over the key is not lined up with the two lines. The distance between the two seems like it would be why I'm showing 19 degrees advanced beyond the expected 12 degrees with the gun (not jumpered). I have a gun that can adjust for advanced degrees, that is how I came up with the 19 degrees (forgot mine had that feature ).

Even if what I'm thinking is wrong, I still think RJR is right and it is the harmonic balancer, and the rubber separated. I've exhausted everything I can think of??? Can anyone verify those two lines represent the location of the crankshaft key?

an1176

I believe so but not sure. The key is called a woodruff key. If it's gone and you need to replace it, make sure it is a tight fit and there is no play in your ballencer once you put it back on. Also slack in the chain caused by a broken guide can cause it to jump a tooth. I had a stock engine from Toyota that had never been messed with with a broken guide and off a tooth on the sprocket. Just FYI.

scope103

I don't know what the two lines represent. But it's hard to imagine that you could have broken a woodruff key without a lot more trash evident. It's also hard to imagine you forgot the key when you replaced the Harmonic balancer.

I would inspect the balancer first for a tear in the annular rubber piece that RJR referred to. If you have a broken woodruff key, that's going to be one hell of job to fix. I would probably do the test RJR described to verify where TDC really is (by the way, why did he recommend using a soda straw? Wouldn't a screwdriver work?)

Last, it's worth mentioning here that the harmonic balancer SHOULD pull straight off without a lot of force. But sometimes the flat side of the woodruff key catches on the harmonic balancer. When you start sliding the balancer off, the key rotates slightly on its round side, jamming the balancer in place. If you have trouble getting it off, use a tiny screw driver to lightly tap on the woodruff key through the key way, to get it to rotate back into the right place.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Thanks again guys, I hope someone knows what those lines mean, would make me sleep easier tonight.

I hear you scope, I'm almost certain I put it in, I don't see myself forgetting something like that, specially since I remember purchasing at least one and replacing it. The problem is it could have been on my 90' camry that I replaced it on. I wish I kept my receipts to look. Also, I would have been looking at where to slip the pulley over.

I can't imagine one having broke either, and I only use toyota parts for things like that. I for sure didn't buy a generic woodruff key and hope for the best.

HOWEVER, if I did purchase one and replace it I am not sure I got the right one. My truck was made 9/91...I very well could have purchased the wrong one and perhaps it was smaller than what I needed?

millball

The crank snout on the 22RE that I am currently building has the two marks on its end.

Why the marks exist, I don't know, they may well be some sort of inspection mark that is randomly positioned on the crank snout....????

The marks on mine DO NOT correspond with the keyway line.

On mine, when the keyway is @ 12:00 the marks are at near 3:00.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Thank you, disappointing that it is likely the same for me. Well, I gotta do what RJR mentioned and see if the rubber slipped.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

I had forgotten that I took these photos also. I wish I was thinking and pulled the #1 plug to make sure I was at TDC.

After using my timing gun and came up with 19 degrees advanced beyond the 12 BTDC (not jumpered), I tore down and cranked it to what I expected to see with my pulley lined up at "0". I expected the cam sprocket and rotor position to look like what is seen in the pic below.





However, when I shined my flashlight down to see where I was lined up at, I saw this.....about 19 degrees before "0". (Dang, gotta clean my engine )

millball

When the cam sprocket mark is @ 12:00 the crankshaft keyway should be @ 12:00 also.

kawazx636

iTrader: (3)

I find it strange that your timing is jumping around without any changes (rocker adjustment is purely coincidental - they have nothing to do with timing). Before you do anything, make sure that you are getting any interference on the inductor of you timing light. If you have it on the #1 wire and it is also touching (or close to) the #2 wire then you will get a false reading. Try to isolate that wire as far away as possible from other wires.

Then I would verify that the chain has not jumped a tooth. Find TDC on the crank (with the mark on the pulley AND through the #1 spark plug hold with a dial gauge) and verify that it lines up with TDC on the camshaft.

From there, you can likely pin it down to the distributor.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Guys, thanks for all the help. I think I just found the culprit this morning. The last few days I noticed my idle kept increasing to about 1100 RPM after driving around. I would get to work, park, and then notice my idle was high. I pop the hood and turn my idle screw so it is back to 750-800. Drive home and the same thing, so turn the screw again. Finally get some duct tape to keep it in place for the next day. Last night I check the forums for the o-ring size since I have a metric kit from Harbor Freight.

See my post toward the bottom on this thread. https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...51/index2.html



I do this late at night and don't even turn the engine over, just glad it's nice and snug again so I can take the stupid tape off. I estimated where the screw should be, and after warming up in the morning I was right around 800.

Drive to work and.......hmmmmm....engine sure sounds and feels good. Hmmmm....doesn't seem to vibrate as much either.....acceleration is pretty good.....feels pretty nice overall. Maybe I had a vacuum leak there also ?????

I had my timing gun in the cab. Get to work, park, and adjust my idle down just a tad to about 750-800. Shoot it un-jumpered and I'm at 8 degrees BTDC!!!!. I'm on to something. Throughout the day I drive the truck to lunch and other places just so I can check the timing again after parking. Stays at about 8 degrees BTDC.

In the morning I'm going to replace some other hoses that I noticed were hard and/or starting to crack with ones I just received in the mail from Toyota. Then I will re-adjust my TPS and see if I'm at 12 BTDC un-jumpered and 5 BTDC jumpered. Then if I need to, adjust the distributor a bit.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

I am good guys. I replaced a few other hoses, and adjusted the distributor just a "smidgen". Thanks for the help, regardless.

It was just pure luck that the o-ring gave out enough to move around in the last few days and I have a memory that remembered the direction of the screwdriver slot on top of the adjustment screw to notice that it moved from a North/South to an East/West direction.

Gawd I REALLY hate vacuum leaks now!

The only thing that still puzzles me, is that my TDC on the cam sprocket is just past 12 o'clock, whereas on others it is just before 12 o'clock. I wonder if it because I have an engnbldr 268 cam rather than stock?

The 4 hoses I replaced with Toyota hoses



More for my own future reference, the TOP of the mark I put on the distributor lines up with the top of the cylinder head. I had it in the middle of the mark.