GlowinToyota

Alright so here goes. I have an 88 4-Runner, 217000 on the ol' 3.0

I've been through about half a dozen auto zone starters. Always thought they were just junk rebuilds. Still had starter issues. Replaced both positive and negative terminals and cables all around, purchased Optima Red Top battery, and a factory Toyota starter from the stealership.

Everything worked fine for about 4 months. Now we're back to not starting. The pattern that I see is that it only wont start when the engine is hot. Every morning when I leave it starts fine, but it's like the heat is killing it. I've got no over heating problems, and the factory heat shield is still on place on the exhaust.

I had a friend mention that maybe my flywheel is slightly warped and that could be my problem? Doesn't make any sense because everything works fine for the first few months. Am I just have horrible starter luck or am I missing something? PLEASE HELP BEFORE I SET THIS THING ON FIRE AND JUST GIVE UP!

raydouble

What exactly does it do when it doesn't start?
Does it just sit there like it's dead?

MrPeepers

Yeah, try to be more specific on what it does and doesn't do. When it doesn't start, does it crank?, does it make a loud click or tick like the starter solenoid, does it crank fast but just not spark? Is it manual or automatic. I have seen both bad neutral safety switches on automatics and bad clutch safety switches on manuals. I have seen bad ignition switches. If it's not cranking, I suggest buying one of those manual remote starter buttons with the cables and alligator clips, so you can jump the starter straight to the battery.

GlowinToyota

When I say it doesn't start, I mean the starter doesn't engage. I can hear it clicking and sometimes if I beat it with my baton it engages. Mechanically the motor runs great, when it starts of course. I try both pushing the clutch pedal in and using the "clutch start cancel" button and get the same results. On occasion, if I continually "bump" the key, sometimes it works and I get it going, but it's like the starter is trying to engage, but just can't quite get "engaged"

TOYOTA 1

run a jumper wire from the small connection on the starter to the + side of the batt( first make sure your in park/ neutral with the e-brake on) touch that wire to the + post and see if the starter works, if it does then i would say your not getting the correct voltage out of that wire.

MrPeepers

Yeah, I am thinking it may be your ignition switch.

GlowinToyota

But since it only seems to give me problems when it's warm would that have anything to do with it? I guess it wouldnt hurt to replace since I've replaced everything else.

GlowinToyota

Alright so I guess I'll replace the ignition switch. Got a new starter from the dealership and installed it. Runner sat for a few days and I had to jump it to get it to start. (brand new optima red top battery so its not bad)

I've also decided to gut the alarm system out of it. I know nothing about it, as it was already installed when I bought it but it acts up every now and then as far as not unlocking the doors.

Could it be perhaps that I have a slow drain somewhere since I had to jump a month old battery? Any suggestions on how to check for a slow drain? Tomorrow I'm disconnecting all aux wires from the battery except the radiator fan, perhaps that will tell me something...

GlowinToyota

Do you or anyone else know what voltage I should be getting from this wire? Maybe it's old and worn and needs replaced.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

I am just curious when you say you put new ends on and replaced the cables.

Did you go with big enough cable I use number 1 welding cable at least and marine battery terminals. I have all ready run a ground cable right to a starter bolt.I would guess you also have not seen many new batteries fail in less than 30 days.

You should have battery voltage at the wire that pulls in the solenoid of the starter. Remember for a ground you are going into Aluminum i have seen this problem all to often.

A new rebuilt starter will work for awhile because it is all new. given time it will do the same thing.

Did not Autozone check your returned starters???

You did check to see what the ring gear looked like??

abecedarian

I wouldn't bother with replacing the ignition switch. You just need to get the starter solenoid load off of it.
Install a relay between the start wire and the starter solenoid.
Should cost about 20 bucks tops for the relay, wire, a breaker or fuse/fuse holder and connectors.
The relay would have 4-5 terminals marked with the following numbers: 30, 85, 86, 87, and maybe 87a (5 terminal).

Using 12 gauge wire....
Connect the + terminal of the battery, then a 20 amp self-resetting breaker or fuse, then to terminal 30 of the relay.
Connect terminal 85 to ground.
Connect the wire that comes from the ignition switch to terminal 86.
Connect terminal 87 to the starter terminal that had the ignition switch wire connected.



You now have a starter relay which removes all the electrical load from the starter from the ignition switch and supplies maximum current to the starter solenoid. A lot cheaper, and easier, then replacing the ignition switch... something not completely necessary since it does work, just can't supply enough current to energize the starter solenoid when the solenoid is hot.

MrPeepers

Oh you have an alarm that has been acting up. I am guessing that is the culprit. For a couple reasons. Usually people cut the starter wire and install a starter-kill relay. Usually they are installed with poor crimp connections that I have seen go bad many times with oxidation or just come loose. Or they are poorly soldered, (cold soldered). Yanking out that starterkill relay if equipped and soldering that wire back together with a good solder joint would be the first thing I would do before doing anything else.

Edit: To check for a drain,disconnect the battery positive lead. Make sure key is off, and make sure any lights and any accessories are off, dome light, etc. Now place a meter inline with the batter positive and battery cable and measure for amps. It should be as close to 0 as possible but won't actually be 0. If you have something suspicious you will need to track it down.

abecedarian

Hmm... I missed a few things there- the red top, the alarm....
My brother put a red top in his silverado and it died within 5 months. Charge voltage was 14.8 so that was working, negligible parasitic draw... replaced it with a regular battery and it's been there for 2 years now. Bad red top? probably.
If you have to jump it after a few days, even a month, then it quite possibly could be bad- it needs charged and load tested, or you do have a decent parasitic draw on it, but an alarm and the radio clock shouldn't be enough to cause it. You can isolate which circuit may be the draw by pulling fuses then using a ammeter to measure the current across the fuse terminals. Anything more than a few milliamperes draw on a circuit, or if multiple circuits add up to more than about 50-75 milliamperes, it deserves closer investigation.

If it was draw from the alarm, or a starter kill system acting up, the starter wouldn't give up the ghost after 4 months... it would do it all the time new or old starter, warm or cold.

I wouldn't wire in a separate starter button for the starter since the ECU utilizes the signal from the ignition switch to do some things while you're cranking the engine, the COR (which controls the fuel pump) operates from the ignition switch, etc. so adding a separate switch to the starter could cause difficulty in starting unless it's wired in parallel with the ignition switch (to back feed up to the ignition switch). The relay I suggested accomplishes the same thing and keeps the ECU and COR in the circuit too.

4Crawler has a section on his website about the starter: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Starter.shtml
If you already have a starter relay (some did come with them from the factory while others didn't) this section of 4Crawler's page may be of interest: http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...l#OtherOptions
He mentions if replacing starter contacts doesn't cure the problem but that can just as easily be extended to "if replacing the starter...".

bigdaddy87547

maybe a lil off topic, when I had starting issues, if i were to hook up leads directly to starter...starter worked fine every time. Then had a friend turn over the key while I was underneath and voila....sparks flew. I had a ground wire attached to a/c bracket that was sparking which caused a click. Tighten it up and no problem 2 years later.

jmlmarine

I am having the same problem with my '90 runner. I finally just unplugged the small starter wire and ran a toggle switch from the battery to the starter with an inline fuse but i want to get it back in working order without the toggle switch. What should I do? My runner use to start sometimes and sometimes not. i kept replacing starters and got tired of it. It was stating if I could get the starter to engage but when the starter wouldn't engage then it wouldn't do anything. i know its not the battery or anything. It either has to be the ignition switch or just the wire isn't letting enough current pass through it. What should I replace or try. Please Help me!

abecedarian

Did you read the whole thread or just the original post and decide to reply? I offered a possible solution a few posts above you, involving installing a relay.
I had the same sort of problem with a 91 2wd pickup needing a new starter every 6-12 months, it didn't get driven a whole lot- maybe 5000 miles a year, and the relay fixed the problem.

jmlmarine

Yeah I took it to my machanic and he put in a relay and it still didn't fix the problem. he thinks it needs an new ignition switch but i thought I might check here to see if anyone else had a solution before I did the ignition change! Or could i just run a new wire?