chuckross1957

Anyone install a remote starter solenoid on a 22r truck? On my last starter, the solenoid contacts fused. It was the large, old style starter, a remanufactured unit with less than 20,000 miles on it. The new starter is a small permanent magnet unit that occasionally clicks. To avoid fused contacts and clicks in the future, I'm installing a remote solenoid (ACDelco F903) and upgrading to larger wiring. It is a little tricky wiring up a remote solenoid with a PM starter. I found a wiring diagram that shows the I connector on the remote solenoid triggering the solenoid on the starter. Any thoughts if this is going to work with out causing a few seconds of delay in deactivating the starter solenoid? http://www.pontiaczone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28559

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

Why??

If your using a remote solenoid to power another solenoid your just adding more connections and another set of contacts.

Allowing more places to have more problems.

It might help to say just what year your working on??Just what brand starter are you working on??

Now if your trying to repair the poor design of the starter circuit with the ignition switch carrying the full load to the solenoid a simple relay will work.

As long as you have contacts that move they will wear and at times weld themselves closed your just adding more.

chuckross1957

This is a 1986...it doesn't have a starter relay from the factory. I think it is worthwhile to avoid a situation where the starter runs and you can't stop it without disconnecting the battery. Also this solenoid (ACDelco F903) is heavy duty and designed to work with larger starters on larger motors making the contacts less likely to fuse on a smaller, less powerful starter. The new starter is "Tough1ne" pn16578 from Advance with a lifetime warranty. It may not be a PM starter... I'm not an expert on starters.

scope103

Your new starter is grounded through the case, has a high-current-capable nutted connection for the battery cable, and a smaller wire (with a quarter-inch push connector) to 12v switched by the ignition switch. The 12v on the smaller wire causes the solenoid inside the starter to pull in, engaging the pinion to the starter ring, AND closing the circuit to allow high current to turn the starter motor.

Where do you plan to put your new solenoid (technically, a relay)? If you put it in the switched wire, that will be an improvement as it removes the "medium" current from the ignition switch. But it will have nothing to do with contacts welding IN the starter.

If you want the relay to try to switch the high motor current, you would have to modify the starter to a) eliminate the starter contacts, essentially making the starter motor "always on," and b) somehow wire in the starter solenoid to pull the pinion into the starter ring when the "main" power is switched.

Or do I have this all wrong?

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

Well said Scope!!

andykrow

You sure your 86 doesn't have a starter relay? Mine does and also had the factory wiring error causing a click/no-start. Easy to fix. Awesome write-ups floating around on here.

andykrow

rad4runner's awesome and easy fix for this

chuckross1957

Nice write up by rad4runner, but mine has a carburetor, no starter relay that I can see and a build date of Feb 1986. If you go to the bottom of the link I posted, there is wiring diagram for a remote starter solenoid. I plan on wiring up the solenoid as shown in the diagram, if I'm not satisfied with the results, I'll wire it in a more conventional way using the solenoid like a starter relay. If you look at the diagram posted, it really shouldn't matter if the starter solenoid contacts fuse since the remote solenoid is switching power to both the large positive lug and the small positive lug on the starter solenoid. If wiring it this way works ok, it should help prevent the problem of the starter running with the key in the off position if the starter solenoid contacts fuse.

scope103

That schematic is just hooking two relays in series, driving both with the ignition switch. If what you're worried about is welding relay contacts, that might help. (Though if the starter contacts weld, wouldn't that hold the pinion gear engaged? I don't know enough about starters to say for sure.)

Note that you are actually increasing the current through the ignition switch. Rad4Runners whole effort was to reduce the current through the switch; that is the purpose of the starter relay in all later models.

But it sounds like you understand all this. I just hope that you aren't going to damage your ignition switch (which will be lots harder to get than the Delco relay.)

wireguy

I have an '86 truck with 22R. Original owner. I performed exactly the modification chuckross1957 is looking to do. It isn't worth it. Because of the way the starter and solenoid/bendix is designed you have to make modifications to the starter internals that are difficult and time consuming. Then when the starter fails eventually anyway, as mine did, you have a heavily modified frankenstein for a core. I went back to the stock setup with a lifetime guarantee starter from O'reilly and have already exercised it once. After seeing the cheesy contacts in Toyota's starter of this model I am NOT worried about them welding.

chuckross1957

I'm making an assumption that the ford style remote solenoid will require the same amount of current or less to trigger than the starter solenoid requires to trigger. I may be wrong about this, so I'll look in to it a little more. If I'm right then I don't see a functional problem with using the remote solenoid like a starter relay... even though just using a regular relay would suffice. I do think the unconventional wiring diagram posted in the link above may not work, and I'm not going to modify the starter or the starter solenoid. As for mounting the remote solenoid, I have it mounted on an elevated bracket near the ww motor. There is a black canister by the A/C lines that is mounted with two 6mm bolts and a bracket holding two metal vacuum lines on top of the fender well that has a single 8mm bolt. I replaced all three bolts with longer bolts and installed them backwards. Using more than one nut on each stud, I mounted more than one bracket to each stud. I used a 4" flat "T" bracket, 3" corner brace, and 6"x3/4" mend plate all from Lowes. Also used a few other items like a 1/4" fender washer and 1/4x 3" bolt. Link to the back up plan... http://www.novaresource.org/images/solenoid03.gif

wireguy

I suspect there are two different starter issues. One is the factory relay, and yes the '86 has one. It is what you bypass when you push the button on the left of the steering column so that you can run the starter motor with the clutch engaged. I have made very good use of that function, and as recently as a month ago it got me out of a bad situation. If one solves a shaky relay issue by replacing the relay with a Ford solenoid, one loses that bypass function.
Then there is the pathetic Toyota starter internal ring type contact system that powers the motor and the electric bendix. It not only is way under designed, it is very difficult to bypass. I'm a master electrician and darn good mechanic and I did bypass it, then abandoned the idea. Just not practical. If you want ultimate on-the-trail reliability carry a spare starter. If your starter RELAY is the source of your problem, replace it or take it apart and fix it. Good luck with that.
So, are there Toyota trucks that really don't have a starter relay? If you have that bypass button, you have a relay.

chuckross1957

Mine is an automatic and I don't know anything about a bypass button. Also if there is a starter relay, I'd like to know where it is...it isn't mounted on the inside of the fender like the EFI models. There is a Bosch style relay that is loose near the battery/fuse box. It has a thick red wire that goes to the positive battery terminal. It has an in line fuse...I disconnected the fuse and the starter still turns over. I not sure what this relay is for...but it doesn't seem to be related to the starter.

wireguy

Sorry, I didn't think about the automatics. There would be no point in the type of relay the manual transmission units have because turning the starter motor over still isn't going to propel you. That doesn't mean there isn't a starter relay. I don't know. I can see where it could be engineered either way. I am pretty sure of this though. Due to the design of the Toyota starter and the way it is internally designed electrically and mechanically you are going to have the internal solenoid to deal with no matter what other changes you make. There may be something different about the starters Toyota uses on automatics I'm not aware of, but I'm guessing they are all pretty much the same with respect to how they operate electrically, and they are poorly designed and not at all robust.

wireguy

Chuck, I suspect you are right about your truck with an automatic not having a relay, only the solenoid built into the starter. I also suspect that solenoid was designed to work straight off the switch, at least in these early models, and the only reason the manual transmission models have a relay is so the truck can be moved using only the starter motor for propulsion. I remember reading about that in the owner's manual I think it was. I have used that feature a number of times. Once to get farther away from freeway traffic when my ignitor failed (hello MSD ignition system) and recently when the fuel pump died 1/4 mile from my out-of-town shelter for the night, as I was leaving that town just after sunset. Going back it was uphill for the first 75 yards. I cranked that little truck full of me and my dogs up that hill with the starter and coasted in downhill the rest of the way.
If I was going to put a relay in the line to take the load off the switch I think I would use a much smaller relay than a Ford solenoid. After all, the relay still isn't carrying the starter motor current, only the solenoid current. An ordinary 12 volt automotive relay should suffice for that.

wireguy

I just re-read what scope 103 wrote, and what he wrote is exactly what I remember having actually done this. It is very difficult to rework the Toyota starter to make it always on while still retaining the electric/magnetic bendix.
I still think there is a market for a kit that would do just that. After all, it is always the contacts that fail, seldom the motor.

RJR

I think it's a little strong to call the internal contacts in the starter "pathetic". My starter has been in service for 200,000 miles, mostly short trips, so it's seen a lot of use, with no hiccups at all. My son has one with 300,000 miles on it. I'd say that's a bit better than pathetic and/or poorly designed.

If you're in the habit of using your starter for propulsion, then maybe you do want something a little more robust. However, if this has happened "numerous times", I think I'd work on the other reliability problems, not on beefing up the starter. At best it's a poor substitute for a working gasoline powered engine.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

My starter use is the same very short trips about 5 miles or so with several stops.

Like I said any electrical device with contacts your always going to have wear.

Bottom line go for it !!

scope103

I'm not sure that all of us are talking about the same thing. So I made the following doodles.

The starter itself is an electric motor, that takes about 175 amps for a few seconds. Inside the starter is a Solenoid, that pushes the pinion gear into the ring gear, and at the same time closes big copper contacts to switch the 175 amps to the motor. That solenoid takes about 5amps (estimate).

Back in the '80s sometime, Toyota trucks did not have a Starter relay, and the current to the starter Solenoid was directly switched by the ignition key. So that tiny switch in the cabin switched about 5amps.


Starting sometime in the late '80s, a starter relay was added. Now the ignition switch only had to switch about 50ma, and a relay under the hood did the heavy lifting. (In the earliest versions of this truck, Rad4Runner discovered a design error -- the ignition switch not only powered the relay, but the power through the relay to the solenoid! That defeated the purpose of the relay.)


I believe chuckross1957 is proposing to insert another relay, the AC Delco "starting solenoid." It has to switch at least 175amps, so its a big-darn relay, requiring an actuator so large it's properly called a solenoid. To switch that much current takes a big coil, but it's not also moving the pinion gear, so I estimate that solenoid takes about 1amp. This doodle shows how the linked page shows it connected. Note that the ignition switch is now powering both the AC Delco solenoid and the starter solenoid, or about 6amps through that tiny switch. Also, the 175 amps to the motor now has to work its way through two sets of contacts instead of only one.


The advantage (?) of the extra solenoid is that the starter will not keep running if one of the two sets of contacts "weld" together. I've never seen it happen, but I'm sure it's possible. I think, however, if the starter contacts weld they will hold the pinion engaged.

What chuck does, of course, is up to him. But if we're talking about it, it might help if we are talking about the same thing he's thinking of.

chuckross1957

I think we are in agreement, it looks like I don't have a factory starter relay. Also since I'm trying to address two issues, the intermittent clicking and avoiding the starter from running continuously because of fused contacts, a third objective has come in to play. This would be lowering the current going through the ignition switch. So, I found a third wiring option that involves triggering two solenoids with one relay...http://i44.tinypic.com/14mu97o.jpg One thing on my mind was that when my contacts fused, I didn't have a quick way to stop the starter from running. So you are looking at two things, avoiding the problem in the first place and mitigating the damage if the problem occurs. I may not have a wrench handy to disconnect the battery when this occurs. You can ruin a battery if the starter runs too long. So I also bought a battery quick disconnect. Also if I use this third wiring method, I'd install an inline fuse going to the relay...a fuse that is accessible and that I could quickly remove if needed.