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Hello all, I have another thread going in the build up section but it sort of lost steam (interest) with everyone so I thought I'd try over here. So what I have so far is an 88' 4runner 22re that I did a full rebuild on minus the short block and new engnbldr stock head that someone else did for me. It has a new water pump, oil pump, timing chain assembly, spark plugs, main relay, cold start injector sensor, rebuilt injectors, egr delete, and new clutch. It has no leaks or extra wires or bolts hanging off it. I meticulously labeled every wire, bolt and hose and it all went back together smoothly like it should minus an epic fight getting the engine bolted back to the transmission by myself.
I put fresh gas in it, timed it best I could, tested fuel pump by jumping the correct diagnostic terminals and had good fuel flow to the rail and CSI. It initially had no juice to anything then I cleaned up the battery terminals and everything came to life minus the engine. The engine cranks, albeit slowly initially, but nothing fires. I don't have any exhaust at the moment past the O2 sensor so I'd hear it if even one cylinder fired but nothing, it just cranks. I checked all the plugs, I got a strong spark on every plug and I reconfirmed that there was fuel coming from the pump. I messed around with timing for another week or so and then started digging deeper. I took apart the wiring harness and re soldered the splices for the injectors, which showed no sign to corrosion anyways. I checked all 4 grounds and cleaned everything with a wire wheel and all looked good.
I was beginning to feel stumped so I had a coworker come over who is a former airplane/jet mechanic and he tested everything he could for resistance and continuity per the FSM. The engine is showing no codes, the injector resistor is within spec. The ignitor is within spec, the fusible link has continuity, the wires from the ECU to the ignitor all have continuity. The distributor and wires to the ignitor are good. The AFM which I did not touch was all good except the terminals that were supposed to by infinity resistance were at about 2000 ohms, and this is the only thing that was not perfectly in spec. He looked at the timing again and we even flipped it 180 but still nothing but a strong spark. The injectors are freshly rebuilt by witch hunter and fuel is getting to them and the engine is showing no codes and the splices in the wiring harness are solid. Could my ECU be fried and everything but the engine running still be ok? I don't really know what else to check. Could the resistance thats off in the AFM prevent the engine for running? I never touched the TPS, never even took it off the intake. I'm baffled, my very knowledgable buddy is stumped, no one around here really works on old toyotas nor do I really want to haul it up to someone. Any more Ideas? The pages of my FSM are starting to fall out i've gone thru it so much. Much thanks in advance!
You say you flipped the "timing" 180, but I suggest you do it more carefully. Assuming ignition timing is what you're concerned about. You may need to remove the valve cover (22re is not my forte) to confirm which of the two TDCs per cam revolution is the one with the valves closed (top of the compression stroke) on #1. Is the distributor pointing at #1 (or a few degrees before it)?
You say the engine is cranking slowly; that's not good. Make sure the battery is adequately charged.
It sounds like you suspect the injectors are not opening. Why don't you try pulling the plugs, sliding a strip of paper into each cylinder, and cranking for 4-5 revolutions. Is each strip wet with fuel? (Don't dawdle; gasoline evaporates quickly.) If not, remember that the fuel pump is supposed to start when the ignition switch closes the COR. You can force the pump to start with the jumper you know of, so try it again with the jumper.
Thanks for the reply, I confirmed that the engine was tdc by checking that the appropriate rockers were loose and by feeling the top of the piston thru the spark plug hole. I put In the distributor and it moved over to the #1 position like it should. Feel pretty good about it. We flipped the whole cap 180 just to see, because it was an "aha" fix for one of the other hundreds of "engine won't start " threads on the web. It is difficult to turn over initially until it gets going. It was easy to turn by hand before I dropped it in, not sure what happened there.
Damn dude, bad to hear that it still won't start. Have you tesed the starter (+ and - wire)? Maybe even buy a new one and throw it in but return if no start. The slow cranking has me thinking it could be this.
I was one of those fools with the distributor flipped 180° during my first starting attempt, but even with it backwards it still cranked strong.
You could try starting fluid (which I generally avoid as much as possible). If adding "fuel" that way causes it to fire (even if it doesn't run), that does point to a fuel delivery issue.
Thanks for the replys. My next step barring an electrical gremlin finally surfaces is to look at the starter and wires. Maybe try a junkyard since parts stores here are pretty limited. Does the starter need to hit a certain rpm to fire the injectiors?
I have reluctantly tried starting fluid... and nothing. Unfortunately my nearly new battery will die after 30 seconds of intermittent cranking and I have to wait to charge it again. Is there a function on the engine I should look at that would prevent it running even if air/fuel/spark is present??
Im thinking I may even drop the transmission to see if something with the new clutch is binding and preventing it from turning freely. Thanks for the ideas everyone.
If its a 5spd (since you replaced the clutch, I'm guessing yes.) you could try push starting it. A bit redneck, but you could rule out the starter. I've started my 3VZE with a failing starter before, at low RPMS, and it fired after a bit. You have the spark plug order set right, right? If its really wrong, it might not spark at the right times.
When my starter was going the engine would still fire up, but often took multiple attempts and it would crank close to half the speed it does now all rebuild and nice. It would usually fire on the 12th rotation, but sometimes more.
As it got closer to it's death, it required much longer cranking (slower still, like a full second between revolutions!) and even more attempts till I eventually had to pull it to a mechanic with a tow strap and my father-in-law's Silverado.
The new starter had it firing up nice and quick. A new battery and main cables helped even more. I'd be kinda concerned that your battery only allows 30 seconds of cranking before dying. There might be a parasitic draw somewhere, which could be found testing the fuse ports with a multimeter while the ignition is off.
Haha yeah I'm definitely not above a little redneck jumpstart but I'd end up in the middle of the street at the end of my driveway and not be able get back in the garage if it doesn't start. If I end up finding a mechanic who works on old yotas I'll have to tow it anyways.
The hard to turn over is weird. The initial couple of rotations are really labored and then it will start to gain some steam until it dies, could very well be the starter, pretty sure it's the original, but the engine is also hard to turn over by hand. It takes a considerable amount of force with a breaker bar, whereas I could spin it with a socket wrench out of the truck. Could there be enough resistance from something with the clutch to not allow the engine to take off? Seems like once if fired it could produce enough torque even with that resistance to continue running. Just spitballing here, but I want this thing to run. I put a lot of time and effort into this thing.
thanks
Haha yeah I'm definitely not above a little redneck jumpstart but I'd end up in the middle of the street at the end of my driveway and not be able get back in the garage if it doesn't start. If I end up finding a mechanic who works on old yotas I'll have to tow it anyways.
The hard to turn over is weird. The initial couple of rotations are really labored and then it will start to gain some steam until it dies, could very well be the starter, pretty sure it's the original, but the engine is also hard to turn over by hand. It takes a considerable amount of force with a breaker bar, whereas I could spin it with a socket wrench out of the truck. Could there be enough resistance from something with the clutch to not allow the engine to take off? Seems like once if fired it could produce enough torque even with that resistance to continue running. Just spitballing here, but I want this thing to run. I put a lot of time and effort into this thing.
thanks
Easy to spin on the stand, but hard once in the truck is normal. You've got a more sealed system with the intake and exhaust, so there's more internal resistance from air pressure. I'm sure you can hear the pistons "whooshing" up and down a lot more than when it was on the stand. I think that's all that is.
I would think that if the clutch wasn't releasing from the flywheel enough to cause a problem, the engine would still fire, but lurch forward and stall.
On your last thread everyone was convinced it was a timing problem, and I was too but if you're sure it's all good, I'd suspect the starter and maybe the battery. Even though it's almost new, it should be able to crank for a long time. Not that you should ever do that, but it's a red flag that it can't.
Soooo, I had a buddy squirt some starting fluid in the CSI port on the intake and she took off for several seconds and it sounded decent as far as not a completely erratic firing sequence like bad timing would point to. I've been solo on almost all of this and when I tried the fluid before I was squirting a little thru the throttle body and hurriedly putting the intake tube back on and running around to try and crank it.
So I'm almost positive the injectors simply aren't firing at all. Any ideas on thorough checks I can do other than what I've already tried many times? I'm getting continuity thru all the wires I've checked on the harness. Respliced the injector wires. I'm getting no codes on the dash when I jump the diagnostics so I think the ecu is ok. Main relay is new and good, injector resistor is within range...
Any idea what this single wire/connector on the harness is? I didn't label it and it's dirty like it's never been plugged in.
Thanks for hanging in there with me
You've got a diagnostic port to jumper the fuel injectors. Depending on your year, it's either a square plug near the ecu diagnostic port on the driver's fender, or on a block next to the fuse box on the passenger side for a later model than mine.
Fuses are all good. I don't have ac so that would explain the plug mystery plug, thanks. By injector diagnostic jumper do you mean jumping the fuel pump? I've done this and there is a strong flow to the fuel rail. I'll look into that more tho. Will jumping it force the injectors to fire or will it just test them?
You're right, it only jumps the fuel pump. To jump the injectors, it looks like you'll have to jump them directly from the battery. Small alligator clip leads might be able to fit in the injector plugs. Also, test to make sure the csi has between 2 - 4 ohms resistance and the injectors between 1.5 - 3 ohms.
I would try and see if jumping the injectors would make them fire but I had them rebuilt and tested so I know they are good. Is there any fool proof tests I can do to test the function of my ECU? I'd imagine I'd have all sorts of trouble if it was bad, but it's the only thing I haven't been able to test other than not seeing any check engine light codes pop up.
WOW! so it started! No rhyme or reason, I just cranked it over for the first time today and it did it's normal slow crank to faster crank to coughing, then POP POP POP POP it started going! So I excitedly started cranking again and POP POP POP POP, hold the gas down a little and off it goes. As long as i held the gas half way down it kept roaring (just a header and o2 sensor at the moment). But the minute I let off a little it would abruptly die, and take a lot of cranking to get back to taking off again, Definitely no idle at all. So this is huge for me, my dogs bolted out the back door of the garage when i stated jumping around like a crazed chimp in the garage hahaha. So I guess I'll mess with the timing more?? It definitely seems a little starved for gas. A big beer and some quality FSM time now haha.
No it's the original cam. It was in good shape so I didn't see a reason to replace it. For some reason my aftermarket tach wasn't registering when it was running so I wouldn't be able to hold rpm anyways. I never touched my TPS, so no it hasn't been adjusted. Should it be?
05-05-2017, 12:57 PM
