Rattle from the engine
06-01-2008, 08:08 PM
#41
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Couple things to consider. First, many engines (especially toyotas) have a rattle when excellerating or going up a hill when the engine is working. This can be eliminated by using a higher octane fuel but is not really necessary as this rattle doesnt mean anything bad. Running a higher octane through the engine every once in a while is not a bad idea though. Second, check your engine mounts, sometimes if a bolt is loose or missing it will make the engine rattle and the reason it only does this at a certain rpm is because that rpm makes a certain vibration that causes the engine to rattle but other rpms dont create this vibration or frequency. Hope that helps.
06-02-2008, 04:20 AM
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06-03-2008, 03:06 AM
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Hi. I have a noise coming only when engine is warmed up and at 2500RPM. It seems to be louder under so I suspect rod bearing but it can be anything else. I have 285 000km. I guess I will let the engine died and replace it after (cheaper than trying to fix it. They charge me 2000$ to rebuild the engine, and 900$ for a used engine with 150 000km. My question: usually, If it is rod bearing, what will be the signal that engine is very close to end up. I don't want to be too far away in the forest when it will stop..
Thanks
Thanks
06-04-2008, 02:33 AM
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4runner 97 2.7l engine noise
Lack of oil does not cause piston slap, it causes top end oil starvation and eats the cam and rockers in short order. The pistons and bores are oiled via splash from the crankcase; changing to a different brand of filter will not alter this. Piston slap is due to the piston skirts being slightly small for the bore, though some is normal for a 22RE. When new the skirts are slightly larger than the top of the piston. As the pistons heat up, the crown is hotter and expands to fill the bore about even with the skirts. (Another reason to let your motor warm up a bit and not do jackrabbit starts with a cold motor.) Over time, the pistons' skirts get a bit battered and the bore wears. The remedy is an overhaul (bore/hone/deck, and new pistons/bearings/rings). I'd live with it if your compression is good.
Startup rattle is something else entirely. This is caused by oil draining back to the pan, so it takes a moment to build pressure in the timing chain tensioner which then tensions the timing chain. A quality oil filter with a good anti-drainback flapper will help with this. Lately in my experience Toyota filters sometimes are good, sometimes no better than others, it's a crap shoot.
Rod knock is also something entirely different. Lots of causes, from worn bearings, to blockage in the oil passages... but it is a deep knock and worse under load.
Wrist pins also wear in the 22RE and can be noisy - and hard to diagnose.
123K is about the service limit for a timing chain and replacement should not be deferred. Do yourself a favor and follow the FSM method, which does not shortcut R&R of the head gasket. Head gaskets also have a service interval! Be sure to check the block deck for wear, and the head for flatness. A little matters a LOT. Refer to the FSM for service limits.
When you drop the pan (and that is NOT optional, it needs to be cleaned out), it would be wise to pull a few bearing caps and inspect the bearings. Not much more work.
Bad things happen when the guides go. The PO of my 93 deferred the timing chain. The timing cover was badly grooved though it had not yet worn through to the coolant passage (instant problems), but worse, bits of the aluminum around the lower sprocket had been shredded and three teeth were missing off the lower sprocket (though it did not jump time - amazingly enough). All this got pulverized, sucked into the oil pickup, ground up by the oil pump, and distributed to all the bearings, ruining everything in the oil circuit. I will have essentially a new motor when the overhaul is complete, something I did not plan on when I bought the truck.
The motor still ran well, the only symptom was the timing chain rattle which was bad. No rod knock.
Startup rattle is something else entirely. This is caused by oil draining back to the pan, so it takes a moment to build pressure in the timing chain tensioner which then tensions the timing chain. A quality oil filter with a good anti-drainback flapper will help with this. Lately in my experience Toyota filters sometimes are good, sometimes no better than others, it's a crap shoot.
Rod knock is also something entirely different. Lots of causes, from worn bearings, to blockage in the oil passages... but it is a deep knock and worse under load.
Wrist pins also wear in the 22RE and can be noisy - and hard to diagnose.
123K is about the service limit for a timing chain and replacement should not be deferred. Do yourself a favor and follow the FSM method, which does not shortcut R&R of the head gasket. Head gaskets also have a service interval! Be sure to check the block deck for wear, and the head for flatness. A little matters a LOT. Refer to the FSM for service limits.
When you drop the pan (and that is NOT optional, it needs to be cleaned out), it would be wise to pull a few bearing caps and inspect the bearings. Not much more work.
Bad things happen when the guides go. The PO of my 93 deferred the timing chain. The timing cover was badly grooved though it had not yet worn through to the coolant passage (instant problems), but worse, bits of the aluminum around the lower sprocket had been shredded and three teeth were missing off the lower sprocket (though it did not jump time - amazingly enough). All this got pulverized, sucked into the oil pickup, ground up by the oil pump, and distributed to all the bearings, ruining everything in the oil circuit. I will have essentially a new motor when the overhaul is complete, something I did not plan on when I bought the truck.
The motor still ran well, the only symptom was the timing chain rattle which was bad. No rod knock.
Thanks
06-04-2008, 05:34 PM
#45
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re: engine rattle
I have the same rattle from my 93 22re. I tried everything, loosening valve cover nuts, tightened the exhaust manifold shield, and the timing chain had just been changed. I finally took it to my Toyota mech he checkrd it out and told me the rod bearings were going which is why they made a slight noise for a split second on acceleration around the 2300-2500 rpm range, hope this helps, Craig.
06-06-2008, 06:15 AM
#46
Morning!
Ahhh, the mysterious noise thread. I would hazard a guess that I have received literally thousands of emails and phone calls on this one.
*It would be nice if I could just say what it is, but there are a lot of possibles that demonstrate similarly. So here are a few and what they sound like.
1. Rod bearing? Typically this will show up quickly when drifting along at light throttle. If it shows up at higher RPM and gets worse, the next sound is the loud noise and big cloud of smoke. With the engine idling, unplug the wires one at a time. Listen for the noise to go away or appear. If it does, it is related to the piston or rod on that cylinder. This one is "tap..tap..tap" at the same speed as rotation.
2. Wrist pin. Same test, listen for a double click, the sound is soft on the 22R series unless it's about to come out of there. Listen for a quick "tuktuk..tuktuk" sound.
3. Main bearings. This is a verticle engine design, loose mains tend to react to the opposing thrusts of the assembly. Look to see if you have normal oil pressure, if you do, it isn't the mains. Rotational noise, heavy and deep.
4. Piston skirt collapse. Yep, I have measured a LOT of that, modern pistons are stronger and contain silicon so they really don't do that much, back in the late 80's it was fairly common with the factory pieces. Test for this the same way as checking for a bearing noise. Guess what? I have seen this problem pop up right round 2000-2500 RPM. This can be almost a sharp tacking sound. Loud enough to make a person nervous.
5. Dang hydraulic timing chain tensioner, maybe should be number 1. The design is revenge for them losing world war 2, I think.
These work great when they work but all it takes is some dirt or debris or a few pieces rubbed off those nylon timing chain guides and oops! No worky, runs noisy, out comes the wrenches.
The noise it makes can be everything from idle and then goes away to come on at midrange. Normally we suspect that FIRST if someone says "rattle".!
*Irritating when you just got done replacing it but the world's best tensioner will stick if it gets some dirt inside it. Best to wash your hands when working on the timing chain. It demonstrates as everything from a jangle to a clicking noise and if it is loose, fix it quick or keep your bus pass up to date.
6. Just plain wore out. Folks with 22RE engines say "only" and 200,000 in the same sentence. When things get loose inside an engine and start moving around, sounds show up under loading (1500-2500) and tend to ease off as centrifugal force increases, so noises can fade at higher RPM's.
7. Exhaust leaks. Depending on where the leak is, it can sound like the crank is coming out of there or sound just like every valve is set at 1/4" clearence. Ever see one of those exhaust manifolds that was flat and perfectly straight? Neither have I. One gentleman mentioned the 02 sensor, yep, I have seen that half a dozen times now, too. Got a big hole in the muffler? We all know about that one, but a tiny leak at the manifold can actually suck in outside air during low pressure cycles. *Hmmm. Say, is your manifold glowing a bit?
8. Piston hitting the head. Carbon can build up on top of the piston. There isn't a heck of a lot of room in there, which is sweet for nice throttle response but can be a PIA if your engine with "only" 200K uses a tad of oil now and then. The carbon can touch the head as she rolls over TDC, now at low speeds noise is usually there a bit but these engines make so much racket normally you just don't notice that. It's a bit like listening to the wife talk about her knitting club during the big ball game, the sound is there but we men don't hear it.
As speed comes up and load increases, then the noise is there.
*This sound is just like a loose rocker arm, the noise isn't from the impact with the head because that really isn't an impact, at TDC the piston is barely moving so it's kind of gentle. The noise is the piston being turned slightly and tapping the cylinder wall. Yep, on the fire stroke so half crank speed, it has to be a rocker arm, right?
And guess what? As speed increases, the noise tends to go away because the piston is moving faster and simply doesn't have time to smack the cylinder wall.
*K....I see eyebrows go up on this one, but I am an old racing engine builder, we put things on the track with .012" and more cylinder wall clearences. I have seen this exact scenario many times. Try running a set of old antique Ross pistons in a 427 Ford with zero deck height. Then listen to the driver say, "What the he** is THAT?"
We just grin and tell them to go race. Yep, sounds like they are coming out of there, right around 2000-2500 RPM.
The nice thing about a piston bumping the head due to carbon is she will run that way for many years and hurt nothing, as some of you with this noise already know.
9. Pinging. This sounds like a crackling noise, bunch of mice in there eating peanuts, marbles in a beer can? Easy to spot, it shows up going up hills at part to heavy throttle. Go buy some premium, if that fixes it reset your timing back a degree or two.
Of course you can be like me, deaf as a post.... "Noise?? What noise?".....*LOL**...*EB
Ahhh, the mysterious noise thread. I would hazard a guess that I have received literally thousands of emails and phone calls on this one.
*It would be nice if I could just say what it is, but there are a lot of possibles that demonstrate similarly. So here are a few and what they sound like.
1. Rod bearing? Typically this will show up quickly when drifting along at light throttle. If it shows up at higher RPM and gets worse, the next sound is the loud noise and big cloud of smoke. With the engine idling, unplug the wires one at a time. Listen for the noise to go away or appear. If it does, it is related to the piston or rod on that cylinder. This one is "tap..tap..tap" at the same speed as rotation.
2. Wrist pin. Same test, listen for a double click, the sound is soft on the 22R series unless it's about to come out of there. Listen for a quick "tuktuk..tuktuk" sound.
3. Main bearings. This is a verticle engine design, loose mains tend to react to the opposing thrusts of the assembly. Look to see if you have normal oil pressure, if you do, it isn't the mains. Rotational noise, heavy and deep.
4. Piston skirt collapse. Yep, I have measured a LOT of that, modern pistons are stronger and contain silicon so they really don't do that much, back in the late 80's it was fairly common with the factory pieces. Test for this the same way as checking for a bearing noise. Guess what? I have seen this problem pop up right round 2000-2500 RPM. This can be almost a sharp tacking sound. Loud enough to make a person nervous.
5. Dang hydraulic timing chain tensioner, maybe should be number 1. The design is revenge for them losing world war 2, I think.
These work great when they work but all it takes is some dirt or debris or a few pieces rubbed off those nylon timing chain guides and oops! No worky, runs noisy, out comes the wrenches.
The noise it makes can be everything from idle and then goes away to come on at midrange. Normally we suspect that FIRST if someone says "rattle".!
*Irritating when you just got done replacing it but the world's best tensioner will stick if it gets some dirt inside it. Best to wash your hands when working on the timing chain. It demonstrates as everything from a jangle to a clicking noise and if it is loose, fix it quick or keep your bus pass up to date.
6. Just plain wore out. Folks with 22RE engines say "only" and 200,000 in the same sentence. When things get loose inside an engine and start moving around, sounds show up under loading (1500-2500) and tend to ease off as centrifugal force increases, so noises can fade at higher RPM's.
7. Exhaust leaks. Depending on where the leak is, it can sound like the crank is coming out of there or sound just like every valve is set at 1/4" clearence. Ever see one of those exhaust manifolds that was flat and perfectly straight? Neither have I. One gentleman mentioned the 02 sensor, yep, I have seen that half a dozen times now, too. Got a big hole in the muffler? We all know about that one, but a tiny leak at the manifold can actually suck in outside air during low pressure cycles. *Hmmm. Say, is your manifold glowing a bit?
8. Piston hitting the head. Carbon can build up on top of the piston. There isn't a heck of a lot of room in there, which is sweet for nice throttle response but can be a PIA if your engine with "only" 200K uses a tad of oil now and then. The carbon can touch the head as she rolls over TDC, now at low speeds noise is usually there a bit but these engines make so much racket normally you just don't notice that. It's a bit like listening to the wife talk about her knitting club during the big ball game, the sound is there but we men don't hear it.
As speed comes up and load increases, then the noise is there.
*This sound is just like a loose rocker arm, the noise isn't from the impact with the head because that really isn't an impact, at TDC the piston is barely moving so it's kind of gentle. The noise is the piston being turned slightly and tapping the cylinder wall. Yep, on the fire stroke so half crank speed, it has to be a rocker arm, right?
And guess what? As speed increases, the noise tends to go away because the piston is moving faster and simply doesn't have time to smack the cylinder wall.
*K....I see eyebrows go up on this one, but I am an old racing engine builder, we put things on the track with .012" and more cylinder wall clearences. I have seen this exact scenario many times. Try running a set of old antique Ross pistons in a 427 Ford with zero deck height. Then listen to the driver say, "What the he** is THAT?"
We just grin and tell them to go race. Yep, sounds like they are coming out of there, right around 2000-2500 RPM.
The nice thing about a piston bumping the head due to carbon is she will run that way for many years and hurt nothing, as some of you with this noise already know.
9. Pinging. This sounds like a crackling noise, bunch of mice in there eating peanuts, marbles in a beer can? Easy to spot, it shows up going up hills at part to heavy throttle. Go buy some premium, if that fixes it reset your timing back a degree or two.
Of course you can be like me, deaf as a post.... "Noise?? What noise?".....*LOL**...*EB
06-06-2008, 07:26 AM
#47
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06-06-2008, 09:43 AM
#48
22RE pieces.. 250" Chevy 6 cylinder pistons too, one after another with a hole in one. Along came the "integrated" head design and I could not give the pistons away.
Usually we see other evidences also, piston heads with bits of aluminum missing, cylinder overheat.
Get a piston too hot, the metal moves, clearence increases, pretty soon someone is looking for a source of noise. Interesting with the Toyotas is we seldom see a piston concern with the roughly 1989 and up stuff. Earlier we see it fairly regularly. Just metal differences.
Nothing to do with any "defect", instead upset conditions caused by fuel changes. Engines run hotter temps now than they did even 15 years ago.
Along came modern techniques that can control metalurgy, pour methods that evenly distribute silicon molecules, even copper molecules. Computors helped a lot in controlling temps and pour rates.
We now have bone stock pistons available that are better than the stuff we used to pay top dollar for for flat out racing engines, in my poor opinion. I remember those days, TRW forged pistons that we would take out and they were so bent we could measure the skirt collapse with a ruler. We had to fit every cylinder one at a time because the pistons were all different sizes, too.
Good stuff out there now, and getting better for about every engine there is, nice and cheap, too..well, so far but every supplier is suggesting price increases, fuel costs there I guess.
*It's neat because just when I got to the point where I thought I knew something about engines here comes all this new stuff...*LOL**..So I get to go study metals, it's fun stuff for me.....*EB
09-30-2009, 02:24 PM
#49
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No one flame me for bringing up an old topic. Just wanted to say thank you engnbldr for this post, I think it should be a sticky. I've been hearing a pinging/rattle in my engine recently and started getting worried until I came across this thread. Luckily it proved to be #9 -- a timing problem that was diagnosed by running 92 octane. Ping went away immediately, an easy fix by turning back the timing by 2 deg.
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
07-22-2010, 04:10 PM
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My 22RE was recently "rebuilt", at least the bottom end was. The 4runner had been sitting for a couple of years with the engine disassembled. All bearings, pistons, chain, tensioner, guides... The dreaded rattle started a couple of weeks after the engine was first started. The valves were readjusted; nothing, tightened further; slight improvement but still there. noise is very evident at idle and noise fluctuates as the truck sits there idling. The head was not done since it had been rebuilt months before the engine rebuild. Bad idea. Now I have dry valve steam seal leak. The engine rebuilder asked if the head had been resurfaced. If it has been shaved too much, the chain will not be slightly longer for the specs and a weak tensioner will allow the chain to rattle quite a bit. He will check the head for this when he replaces the valve seals. If this is the case, he suggest getting an oversized gasket to make up for the removed material as well as replacing the tensioner again. I asked about the steel guides instead of plastic and he thinks these are good for keeping the chain out of harms way but they can also be noisy. Any thoughts?
11-16-2011, 11:21 AM
#51
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I just picked up a '89 regular cab with a rebuilt 22RE and I have the rattle as well. Sounds like it is coming from left hand side of engine, rattles rarely at idle but starts just above idle RPM and only for a brief window of RPM. Sounds as if there is a short piece of low gauge wire inside of a hollow metal tube kind of rattling around with the pace of the engine, a hollow metallic 'tinging'. I've heard timing chain and piston slaps but it doesn't sound like the piston. Not sure of the last valve adjustment of engine or when it was rebuilt, nor when/if chain was replaced before. I'm.....weary....
Last edited by MalfadorZ; 11-16-2011 at 11:23 AM.
02-20-2012, 06:51 AM
#52
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my 3.0 does the same....... so i put in high octaine gas and it seemed to almost get rid of the noise then slowly came back....... my guess is a carbon build up try buying a can of seafoam, $17 worth a shot might get rid of the noise.
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