wwjr

My truck unexpectedly began running rough and missing, and overheated and lost radiator fluid. Since it was a new radiator and water pump I was pretty freaked. My mechanic looked thru one of the spark plug holes with a color scope and showed me that I had green radiator fluid in the cylinder. He diagnosed it as a blown head gasket. The head was pulled, and a new gasket was installed, and all was well for a short period of time, but... as he was setting the timing, fluid quickly got back into the cylinders and clouded the oil. He had thought that the head was ok and that it didn't need plaining and had all bolts torqued correctly. So, he removed the head and is going to check it again by a shop that does milling and leveling of heads.


First of all, does this sound like the head needed plaining before being installed, and this could be the reason why fluid got back in? And, Secondly, what damage could be done by this fluid getting on bearings, etc? Do I need to replace the engine now? Is it possible the head was cracked but the crack wasn't noticed? or is it more likely there was a leak even with the new gasket installed?


I had a new timing chain, radiator, water pump all installed earlier this year so this is not making me happy.


Any sincere advice is greatly appreciated. I would hate to put everything together then have the engine go bad again in the near future due to the radiator fluid mixing with the oil, but putting in a new engine hurts financially!

dbd6604

First of all, is this the 3.0L or the 2.2L motor?

Could be a few things. Maybe the head has a crack in it. Maybe the head gasket was put on incorrectly (it happens more than you'd think). Did your mechanic re-use the head bolts? I know you can't do this on the 3.0L, not sure about the 2.2L. Just something to consider.

Hope you get it figured out mate.

wwjr

actually, it is a 1992 2.4 liter 22re with 4wd, 5 speed. sorry about forgetting all that

wberry85

Very possible the head was warped, especially with over heating. It houldnt be very expensive to have the head milled so I did it as a matter of precaution when I did my head gasket. The machine shop that does the milling should be able to see a crack if there is one and they will be able to tell you if it was warped for sure.

It is very important that you follow the correct sequence for reinstalling the head bolts or you can warp it that way too. I would not re use head bolts being as they are not very expensive. Do it once, do it right.

Also while you have everything apart I would check the timing chain cover and possibly replace it with a metal one as that can cause coolant leak as well.

wwjr

My mechanic reused the head bolts but did all the proper sequencing and torques. Having said that...he also said the bolts had a lot of carbon buildup and thinks its possible that could be an area of leakage. He wants to clean them better but I will suggest we get new ones if we can find them locally.


My biggest concern though is whether internal damage has been done? Any ideas? Will the engine break down sooner due to having gone thru this?

dbd6604

That's part of the problem. Do NOT use those bolts again.

wwjr

ok. thanks for that advice on the bolts!


Once again, though. Does anyone know..if the leak is stopped and the gasket made tight with no cracks in the head...and the truck runs well again...will it break down over time because of having come into contact with radiator fluid for a short period of time? It was running great right up to the day when it went bad and the only other time the fluid mixed was when it was put back together by the mechanic and the leak started again. He shut it right off but the damage was done.


I've been told my "bearings" could be scarred and might seize up in several months? Any truth to this?

wberry85

I suppose its possible but unlikely. I drove my truck about an hours ride home on a blown head gasket and then also to a buddys house where I replaced it. Lots of people blow head gaskets on these motors and I have never heard of it totally hosing an engine. If the coolant sits in the engine for a long time it can jack some stuff up but your truck hasnt been sitting. My guess is your head is warped and those head bolts are definitely an issue. When you torque them they actually stretch so if you are reusing them they will not properly tighten the head.

That being said, you need to totally drain that oil. Get every bit out that you can. The change it again in 500 miles (its gonna be sludgy), then again in 1000 miles.

wwjr

Thanks wberry!


That eases my stress a bit. Just got off the phone with a buddy who said the same thing. I wish the head had been milled and checked for cracks before being installed and I am happy to pay for new bolts because I guess they didn't come with the gasket kit. I am definitely not into putting in a new engine until I really need one. Just changed timing chain in this one and it only has 60k original miles on it.

wberry85

Yeah the bolts are like $40? Worth the insurance lol

dbd6604

Yeah, the bolts are super cheap. I don't know why the mechanic didn't do/recommend that in the first place.

wwjr

one more thing...I was told that the engine had terrible carbon build up because I have driven it mostly short mileage. any advice on cleaning it from the inside out? maybe with seafoam?

dbd6604

I haven't had good experiences with Seafoam. Others may feel differently though.

wberry85

I am wary of any gas additive in my trucks.

I can say I have been running Sea Foam every tank in my 1968 Ford 2000 and the PO had been using it as well for who knows how long. Use at your own risk.

dbd6604

Every tank? 0.o Why?

wberry85

I believe the Sea Foam stabilizes the gasoline?

The PO was a 90 yr old man who bought this tractor new in 1968. He told me to run Sea Foam every tank through that tractor and I am not one to argue with a man who has kept this thing in perfect running condition for 47 yrs. lol

nordicwargod

Some questions and observations. Did you or the mechanic inspect the old gasket? You can usually see where it failed. Did the cooling system get pressurized? If coolant is in the combustion chamber it would also get pressurized and if coolant entered the oil your crankcase would get pressurized too causing PCV valve failure or something like that causing running issues.
Head bolts: Yes they are cheap but they can be used over if they are in good shape, they are not torque-to-yield bolts. Please expand on the carbon build up on the bolts? How? All of them or just the front passenger one? Its important to explain this.
Did the mechanic check the head and block face/deck? Straight edge and feeler gauge? I think anything over three or four thousandths would call for this, and this is combined. If you put a uneven head on an uneven deck you are going to have a headgasket failure even with new headbolts.
I think this was a headgasket failure or a cracked head, anywhere else and there would not be coolant in the cylinder but a timing cover leak would still put coolant in the oil.
Good luck

wwjr

Not sure of the location, but he said there were a couple that were very hard to get out and he was worrying about breaking them. Can you explain why this is important so I can pass the info on, please? Thanks.


So, you are saying the deck could be warped as well?

nordicwargod

Warped is a subjective word. When talking about the deck I would simply call it "not flat". If the block is warped "twisted" then its toast. It can happen but I've never seen it first hand. Heads get warped much easier but since they don't have a crankshaft rotating on a center axis it may be saved but then the cam shaft has to be inspected for rotation etc. If the head was a little warped shaving it may save it but its important that it be flat! The block I'm doing now had to have 12 thousandths shaved off and I had to toss the head. Even with a new head and "new bolts" it was not going to seal. Did your mechanic check the flatness of the block and head? If not I would not use him ever again.
OK, the head bolts were hard to remove and the stuff around them was black so its assumed it was carbon. If oil and water were getting in there I could see that I guess, I always use anti seize on the threads of the bolt. Before I re-use head bolts [and I have many times] I chase the threads with a die and chase the threads in the block with a tap. If you don't do this it will mess up your torque specs and the head will be under torqued.
So, staying on the head bolts its important to know that the oil entering the rocker arm assembly comes through the front passenger side head bolt, or I should say around the bolt and if it was all carbon'd up that would be very bad news as it means oil starvation for that part of the head. From your description that did not happen.
You said two very important things in the first post you made: That the oil and water were mixed together and that you could see coolant in at least one of the cylinders. Think of the piston as a pump. Its pushing air at high pressure. Without fuel exploding the pressure should be 170psi, I don't know the actual pressure when the engine is running but its higher. With a head gasket leak as you describe it would pressurize both the cooling system and the oil system. It would be easy to see with the cooling system where after 12-15lbs of pressure the radiator cap would let the pressure out along with lots of fluid, very hard to miss. With the oil system you would have lots of pressure entering it. The oil pump puts out only 40lbs of pressure so it would not flow where the higher pressure is entering the system and would have to exit somewhere? I think you see. I think you or your mechanic should have inspected the head gasket to see where it failed. I can't remember a gasket where I or a friend could not find the failure point. Since its going into the oil and coolant system it had to burn/push through one of the fire rings to get in there. Most head gasket failures I've worked on the coolant did not enter the cylinder as far as I could tell. I forgot to mention that a cracked head would give similar symptoms so you can't rule that out too.
When replacing a head gasket one just doesn't pull the old one off and put a new one on without check lots of things.
Sorry about the long post. I know a lot about these engines but not everything. I don't post much but I do read many posts and see quite a few guesses that are wrong. In your case you can't blame the failure on the bolts without knowing much more. Good luck

wwjr

First of all, no apology necessary for the long post. I appreciate the strong feedback. Excuse my terminology, "warped" was meant to describe anything not flat I'm not a mechanic, but I have been the sole owner of this truck since 1992 and I can always hear every new sound it makes, and have tried my best to take good care. I made a couple mistakes along the way, like not flushing the block when I changed radiator fluid, and running too many short trips without long ones in between to burn off the carbon buildup, but a lot of work was done 4 months ago when the timing chain guide broke. The engine had been overheating prior to that, and one of the hoses going into my IACV was completely plugged, causing the engine idle to zoom up and down once the engine was hot and brakes were applied. So, after I fixed that issue myself (took me a month to pinpoint the problem), a new radiator, timing chain, water pump were installed by my mechanic, and the system was flushed, etc.. Things seemed to be great until one day last week when I headed out to a local store several miles away. It didn't want to crank and ran very "rough". On the way home, it began to overheat once again, so I called my mechanic who had installed the new water pump and radiator fearing the pump had gone bad already. After doing so, I discovered that the distributor cap was loose and the screws backed out??? Still no idea how that happened, but the truck was so hot that it filled the overflow reservoir to the top. It still hadn't quite gotten into the red, but it was very, very hot. Once it cooled, I saw that no fluid was visible in the radiator and the distributor was actually loose and could be turned by hand!? I always lock my truck so no one could get under my hood to do this, so I am still baffled by this.


So, the mechanic, who I've known a long time, came by my house, tightened things down and set the timing enough that the truck would idle telling me to bring it in his shop the next day and he would put a timing light on it. We filled the radiator back up, and I took a trip around the block before parking it, but when I checked it in the evening, it had lost fluid again. I filled it again, and it was at the same filled level in the morning because it had not been run overnight.


So, it ran crappy going to the shop but not very hot and when he took the cap of the radiator fluid was low again! He pulled plugs and the 3rd cylinder plug was black. He put a scope down it and showed me the green radiator fluid in the cylinder, saying I had a blown head gasket.


I can't say for sure how or what he did regarding the head and block, but I think I remember him telling me he put a straight edge on it (not sure if he checked the block also) and it looked flat, so he went ahead and installed the new gasket and torqued it to specs. It cranked and ran good for a few minutes, then it went bad again and the oil became a mix of oil and radiator fluid.


By the way. The first thing I did when the car was acting up and overheated the day before was check my oil stick and it looked ok to me. My mechanic even checked it right off after I had driven it to the shop and it looked ok, but they did see radiator fluid in the oil pan when they first drained it. After the new gasket was installed and it leaked, the oil was in the cylinders. I suspect it may have only been leaking into the third cylinder with the bad gasket.


So, he is going to take the head to be checked for cracks and have it milled on Monday. I will make sure he checks the block before installing, and check the timing chain cover as well just to be sure.


Thanks very much for the feedback. Wish me luck!