22REFORME

1988 4runner SR5 22re 5spd

ok so after loosing compression in #3 cylinder on the original 22re engine(290k) i purchased a rebuilt 22re. We finally got it in last night cranked it over until i got oil pressure then tried to fire it..Truck will not start. it cranks fine, but just doesn't fire like it isn't getting fuel or spark.

one known issue is that the old knock sensor broke when it was removed so currently that is unplugged until i can source a new one.(anyone got a source for these ? local place wanted 150 bux!) will not having the knock plugged in prevent the truck from starting?

The chiltons i have showed TDC as putting the mark on the crank to the 5 on the oil pump. is this correct?

whats a good way to determine weather or not i am on the compression stroke or not?

at TDC the rotor on the distributor should be aimed at the #1 plug wire on the cap correct?


if anyone has any other advice it would be much appreciated!

thanks in advance guys!

xxxtreme22r

tdc is not 5 on the oil pump it's 0. rotor should be pointed at cyl 1 assuming your at TDC on #1 compression stroke. You have to verify this by taking the valve cover off an ensuring the #1 valve rockers are loose.

22REFORME

ok i thought that was strange that it would be 5 degrees... i will put it on zero. any other input?

xxxtreme22r

start there and see what happens, remember to use the jumper to set your ignition timing accordingly which I believe is the 5 degress BTDC you refereed to earlier.

not sure if it will start with or without the Knock sensor hooked up.

22REFORME

thanks for your help man.

xxxtreme22r

haven't helped just pointed you in the right direction.

22REFORME

still need to know if the knock will prevent me from starting...

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I can't be sure, but I don't think it will STOP the truck from starting. But, it DOES retard the timing like crazy, in order to protect from pre-detonation.(right X? lol)> ... I would replace that before going forward... Especially with a new motor! You want ANY timing adjustment you make, etc., to be accurate, and while you might be able to dial it in...if you go forward without the KSensor.... Just be SURE that you reset the timing after replacing it. The ECU will pick it up and then adjust, I believe, but you still need to be sure that the timing is right on at 5* BTDC after replacing it. IF you, in fact, lined up your CAM to 12'o'clock with the Crank at 5*... DO NOT go forward until you pull the cover and inspect the mark on the cam gear. If, however, the motor was fully assembled as long block at this place, then you should be ok and you've just got the dizzy timing off from the crank. I wouldn't think that would stop ALL firing. You should still get some popping, I would think.. Unless of course you have the Dizzy at #1 on the opposite stroke.

Usually, when putting something all back together, one can EASILY forget to hook something up that would stop all 'ignition'. First, like X said, get it JUST RIGHT on TDC. Then, try it again and we can go from there.

PS> Be sure that your AFM is hooked up. If not, it WILL NOT start.(I'm not insulting.... promise... Ask me how I know this? lol).

xxxtreme22r

I believe it only retards the timing if it detects pinging.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Right, X, ....gotcha...

Only thing... Doesn't it(ECU) go to a pre-set timing condition when it detects no signal back from it(knock sensor)?

xxxtreme22r

that I do not know.

22REFORME

thanks very much guys. yes the motor was already together so i believe the distributor is just off. anyone know where to get a knock sensor that isn't 150 bux?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

JUNK YARD! lol... Seriously?...150 is actually around 80$ less than the dealers last time I checked... But anyway, try a yard. It wont be 'CHEAP', but it RARELY goes bad, and they'll usually give you back like 90%(minus restocking fee) at the yards, if you're REALLY nice and pitiful looking! lol. (pouting face, not pitiful pitiful, lol).

22REFORME

i am eyeing the one on my 94 camry but it seems as though only the 88-91 camrys share the same sensor.. bummer

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

it's a bad day for feedback, 22, weekends are slim and especially holidays. Hang in there, you might get some really good input from a guru or 2 when they come back to the puter. You probably spent a lot of time on this, and you want it right...best to be sure, eh?

Best wishes,

Mark

Hadmatt54

Once you verify that your cam timing and your distributor timing are correct and everything else (fuel, etc.) is functioning properly your engine will start on the basic timing values that are programmed into the ECU.
Once it starts it uses these initial values, plus basic advance angle, plus corrective advance angle to determine total spark advance.
Basic advance angle is determined from the signals from crankshaft angle (G1), crankshaft speed (Ne), and engine load (Vs).
Corrective advance angle is determined from signals from the coolant temperature sensor (TWH) and from the knock sensor (Knk).
The only time the knock sensor influences timing is when you have detonation from a lean air fuel mixture. The sensor will cause the ECU to drastically retard the timing until the condition no longer exists.
You can start your engine without the knock sensor, but if your engine encounters a lean air fuel mixture event with no knock sensor, you could cause damage to your new engine.
Many people think that a lean air fuel mixtures only happens on after market engine controls that someone is trying to tune, but if you have a weak fuel pump your engine can encounter a lean condition when there is high load on the engine such as close to wide open throttle (WOT).

22REFORME

So having the knock unplugged will not stop from starting .. how bad would it be to drive the truck about an hour? I am going to get the sensor asap but I need to get the truck out of where it is. Look for an upcoming rant thread with details of why

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

RIGHT ON, Matt, great post! Two thumbs way up!

22, do you have AAA or something similar? Maybe a buddy that has something, if not? If you could at least tow it or hook a strap and pull it down the road, would it be ok to park it somewhere else for just a day or so?

When starting a brand new engine, it's not impossible to have some misfiring or otherwise, and I THINK what Matt was saying was, "why take a chance like that with a new motor?" You're talking about an hour, when all it takes is a few minutes of really bad pinging with no correction to do some damage. Heck, Matt might help me out, maybe it's even less time than that, possibly? I'm still learning, but I can tell you one thing for certain... As simple as this motor is compared to many, today, it still has enough variables that can be devastating if EVERYTHING isn't in order when you go to do your 'Break In Process'. That takes 20 Minutes, then draining fluids, then 500 miles, with in between adjustments, often, of Valve Lash, etc. They're VERY strong motors, probably one of the strongest, ever,.....WHEN things are all in order and working together properly.

I would try to pull it down the street, if that's possible, .....I could be wrong, but again, why take the chance?

Disclaimer: If anything I said was STUPID, please feel free to tell me so, that I might learn what I must become more learned in, thereafter! lol. I enjoy being told "NOPE, that's wrong!" > One, because it corrects my possibly misinformation... Two, because it means 'I'M LEARNING SOMETHING'! lol.

Sorry for your troubles, 22, stinks!

Hadmatt54

Sorry 22...I told you how it works...whether you take the chance and drive it is totally up to you. You might never reach the knock limit on this engine, but then again there's Murphy's Law )If things can #2%! up... they will!
It has to be your call, it's your engine!

22REFORME

Had the truck towed. Will be working on it tomorrow. Don't worry guys I am not interested in risk, just asking to get the opinion. One thing maybe you could help me with... there is a hard line that comes up the firewall near the charcoal canister. the hard line has a rubber fuel line hooked to it. This line is not hooked up. I believe that this may be a fuel return line? I am having trouble finding where to hook this up.

Again I really appreciate the help