New ball joints worn out after 5 months?
10-17-2016, 08:40 PM
#1
New ball joints worn out after 5 months?
I installed brand new Moog upper and lower ball joints in my 86 Pickup this past April. It is a 4wd but I do very little recreational off roading and I don't abuse the truck. I took it in to get an alignment today and was told by an old cranky mechanic that it would need brand new lower ball joints before they could do the alignment. I said that they were brand new just this past spring. He said that he could show me if I'd like and so I said yeah you'd probably better show me. So he shows me the truck up on the lift and he takes a big pry bar and he's showing me that he can wedge it into the lower ball joints and pry them up and down showing that there is apparently a lot of wear in the ball allowing a lot of freeplay. I didn't know a lot about diagnosing balljoints from this method. I immediately just said jesus man take it easy these things are brand new! I was just shocked at the possibility that they were already shot and it also rubbed me the wrong way to see this guy was so roughly demonstrating that they are no good. I had them do the alignment anyway and I'm still driving the truck. After I left the alignment shop I also noticed that they didn't reinstall the front skid plate. So I had to turn around and go get it. Got bad vibes all around from that shop. The mechanic also wasn't aware that tightening torsion bars (to raise suspension) would create positive camber. He thought that it would create negative camber.
Anyway, is it possible that these expensive Moog ball joints really have worn out in just 5 months and only a few thousand miles?
Anyway, is it possible that these expensive Moog ball joints really have worn out in just 5 months and only a few thousand miles?
10-17-2016, 08:59 PM
#2
So I've got my truck's front end jacked up and sure enough there is some serious freeplay in the front lower balljoints. How? They aren't even just a little bit worn. They are totally shot. How have these possibly completely worn out in 5 months? I greased them with this grease: https://www.amazon.com/Lucas-Oil-103.../dp/B000IG20RW And hit the grease zerks a few times over the past months. I bought them from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000C546NU/. Maybe I can get a couple new ones under warranty or something? The ball joints that I replaced were the original 30 year old ball joints with 160k miles and there wasn't any noticeable wear or play in them. I just replaced them because I had to do CV shafts and inner/outer wheel bearings and figured I'd put on new ones while I was in there. Wishing I'd kept the old ones now.
Last edited by irv; 10-17-2016 at 09:23 PM.
10-18-2016, 01:57 AM
#5
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That's my video. I've since replaced all the front end joints with OEM. Moog sucks. Spread the word not to put their parts on these trucks. The boot design is stupid. Their inner tie rod ends are junk, boots don't do anything and the joint wears out in under a year. The outer tie rod ends lasted a bit over 2 years but also developed play. I greased everything after playing in water and with ever oil change. OEM isn't even that expensive.
10-18-2016, 08:59 AM
#6
That's my video. I've since replaced all the front end joints with OEM. Moog sucks. Spread the word not to put their parts on these trucks. The boot design is stupid. Their inner tie rod ends are junk, boots don't do anything and the joint wears out in under a year. The outer tie rod ends lasted a bit over 2 years but also developed play. I greased everything after playing in water and with ever oil change. OEM isn't even that expensive.
I just bought two OEM lower ball joints from oempartsource.com for $61.13 each with $12.30 shipping. Not bad. There is actually a different part number for the left and right which is interesting. Is there a difference? Are these Toyota OEM parts supposed to be of the same quality as the original factory ball joints?
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10-18-2016, 01:14 PM
#8
What really gets me about it is that 5 months and only a few thousand miles is so extremely far from any reasonable expectation for a part to last. It's not even just an issue of poor quality here. It's totally irresponsible manufacturing. I had noticed a rumbling in the truck and I had been assuming it may have been due to misalignment and possibly a bad differential bearing, etc. The ball joints were still brand new in my mind so I didn't even think to check them. Selling parts this lousy in quality isn't just typical low end of the market stuff. Feels more like a scam. Seems to me like I bought ball joint looking objects that immediately and very quickly began falling apart the moment they hit the road. Surely not everyone with Moog balljoints have had this happen though. So maybe something was just very wrong with these two. The upper ball joints on my truck all also Moog and I installed them at the same time as the lowers and they are still tight and seem to be in ok shape for now.
10-18-2016, 04:20 PM
#9
Totally possible they've worn out after this short time. Nothing is made to the same quality anymore.
Many always recommend trying to stay with OEM Toyota parts but on occasion when you have to go with aftermarket, "Sankei 555" brand is what you want. The parts are re-boxed in brands like Beck Arnley and sometimes even in Moog packaging, but always the part has "555" cast into the metal.
Just out of curiosity since it wasn't mentioned - what was the ride height for the 5 months the Moog BJs were on the truck? Was it "lifted"?
Many always recommend trying to stay with OEM Toyota parts but on occasion when you have to go with aftermarket, "Sankei 555" brand is what you want. The parts are re-boxed in brands like Beck Arnley and sometimes even in Moog packaging, but always the part has "555" cast into the metal.
Just out of curiosity since it wasn't mentioned - what was the ride height for the 5 months the Moog BJs were on the truck? Was it "lifted"?
10-18-2016, 04:30 PM
#10
Totally possible they've worn out after this short time. Nothing is made to the same quality anymore.
Many always recommend trying to stay with OEM Toyota parts but on occasion when you have to go with aftermarket, "Sankei 555" brand is what you want. The parts are re-boxed in brands like Beck Arnley and sometimes even in Moog packaging, but always the part has "555" cast into the metal.
Just out of curiosity since it wasn't mentioned - what was the ride height for the 5 months the Moog BJs were on the truck? Was it "lifted"?
Many always recommend trying to stay with OEM Toyota parts but on occasion when you have to go with aftermarket, "Sankei 555" brand is what you want. The parts are re-boxed in brands like Beck Arnley and sometimes even in Moog packaging, but always the part has "555" cast into the metal.
Just out of curiosity since it wasn't mentioned - what was the ride height for the 5 months the Moog BJs were on the truck? Was it "lifted"?
10-19-2016, 12:21 PM
#11
tire size has nothing to do with it, it's the geometry of the IFS. all the parts have operating angle limits and if you're constantly riding at near the limit, the part will wear faster.
stock ride height is somewhere around 19-20" from center of the axle to bottom of the fender. If yours is 20"+ then possibly the angle is too steep. Or maybe it was simply an example of what to expect from cheap aftermarket parts and Moog's current quality.
stock ride height is somewhere around 19-20" from center of the axle to bottom of the fender. If yours is 20"+ then possibly the angle is too steep. Or maybe it was simply an example of what to expect from cheap aftermarket parts and Moog's current quality.
10-19-2016, 01:44 PM
#12
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That's my video. I've since replaced all the front end joints with OEM. Moog sucks. Spread the word not to put their parts on these trucks. The boot design is stupid. Their inner tie rod ends are junk, boots don't do anything and the joint wears out in under a year. The outer tie rod ends lasted a bit over 2 years but also developed play. I greased everything after playing in water and with ever oil change. OEM isn't even that expensive.
10-19-2016, 09:05 PM
#13
tire size has nothing to do with it, it's the geometry of the IFS. all the parts have operating angle limits and if you're constantly riding at near the limit, the part will wear faster.
stock ride height is somewhere around 19-20" from center of the axle to bottom of the fender. If yours is 20"+ then possibly the angle is too steep. Or maybe it was simply an example of what to expect from cheap aftermarket parts and Moog's current quality.
stock ride height is somewhere around 19-20" from center of the axle to bottom of the fender. If yours is 20"+ then possibly the angle is too steep. Or maybe it was simply an example of what to expect from cheap aftermarket parts and Moog's current quality.
10-20-2016, 08:45 AM
#14
If you read that write up, the author states that 13.5" to 14" from the top of the 15" rim to the lower edge of the fender is stock height. Which sounds and looks right to me.
Measured from the top of my 15" rim to the lower edge of my fender measures just over 15" as it sits now. Or 23" from the center of the hub to the lower edge of the fender.
19" to 20" from the center of the hub to the fender is incredibly low.
Last edited by irv; 10-20-2016 at 08:46 AM.
10-20-2016, 10:34 AM
#15
Most of the references for stock height mention 13-14" measuring from bottom of fender to edge of a stock 15" wheel.
Once you add in the radius of the wheel and 20-30 years of wear, I don't see how my comment of 20" is not a close approximation of stock height. Again, we're talking about an adjustable suspension -- they can be set at slightly different heights from the factory and definitely wear different from truck to truck.
At 15 years of service, my truck's IFS measured ~19.5" from the center of the axle to the fender (it's a 3rd gen/1993). I added 1.5" BJ spacers and a slight t-bar adjustment to "lift" my truck -- now am at 22.5" and I run a 33x12.5 tire. My truck definitely stands about 3"+ higher than most of the Toyotas I park next to running a stock suspension and stockish sized tires.
Anyways, I would still question the operating angles of the OP's suspension setup. Simply posting a pic of the front from straight on will help a lot since we don't know what it looks like other than what was said.
Once you add in the radius of the wheel and 20-30 years of wear, I don't see how my comment of 20" is not a close approximation of stock height. Again, we're talking about an adjustable suspension -- they can be set at slightly different heights from the factory and definitely wear different from truck to truck.
At 15 years of service, my truck's IFS measured ~19.5" from the center of the axle to the fender (it's a 3rd gen/1993). I added 1.5" BJ spacers and a slight t-bar adjustment to "lift" my truck -- now am at 22.5" and I run a 33x12.5 tire. My truck definitely stands about 3"+ higher than most of the Toyotas I park next to running a stock suspension and stockish sized tires.
Anyways, I would still question the operating angles of the OP's suspension setup. Simply posting a pic of the front from straight on will help a lot since we don't know what it looks like other than what was said.
Last edited by highonpottery; 10-20-2016 at 10:37 AM.
10-20-2016, 11:19 AM
#16
Most of the references for stock height mention 13-14" measuring from bottom of fender to edge of a stock 15" wheel.
Once you add in the radius of the wheel and 20-30 years of wear, I don't see how my comment of 20" is not a close approximation of stock height. Again, we're talking about an adjustable suspension -- they can be set at slightly different heights from the factory and definitely wear different from truck to truck.
At 15 years of service, my truck's IFS measured ~19.5" from the center of the axle to the fender (it's a 3rd gen/1993). I added 1.5" BJ spacers and a slight t-bar adjustment to "lift" my truck -- now am at 22.5" and I run a 33x12.5 tire. My truck definitely stands about 3"+ higher than most of the Toyotas I park next to running a stock suspension and stockish sized tires.
Anyways, I would still question the operating angles of the OP's suspension setup. Simply posting a pic of the front from straight on will help a lot since we don't know what it looks like other than what was said.
Once you add in the radius of the wheel and 20-30 years of wear, I don't see how my comment of 20" is not a close approximation of stock height. Again, we're talking about an adjustable suspension -- they can be set at slightly different heights from the factory and definitely wear different from truck to truck.
At 15 years of service, my truck's IFS measured ~19.5" from the center of the axle to the fender (it's a 3rd gen/1993). I added 1.5" BJ spacers and a slight t-bar adjustment to "lift" my truck -- now am at 22.5" and I run a 33x12.5 tire. My truck definitely stands about 3"+ higher than most of the Toyotas I park next to running a stock suspension and stockish sized tires.
Anyways, I would still question the operating angles of the OP's suspension setup. Simply posting a pic of the front from straight on will help a lot since we don't know what it looks like other than what was said.
10-20-2016, 12:48 PM
#17
I rebuilt my front end at one point and did a huge post about ride height with IFS, where to measure (including FSM pictures) and the numbers that are stock. Unfortunately it never became a sticky. IRV you are definately cranked too much per your picture, you must be near the upper control arm droop stops. Please read:
Here is the post: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...via-sm-290498/
On new 225/75 tires @ 26psi the measurment from the front of the lower control arm mounting adjustment bolt (in the dead center of the bolt) you should measure 11.2", with new 31" tires, roughly 12.5". To remove tire sizes from the equation simply measure from a 15" rim top (factory size), to the lip of the fender directly above it. This should measure 13.5". Do not follow that old ball joint spacer web page that talks about the stock heights of a 2nd gen, the body is completely different, plus it says "stock is about 13" to 14", that is a HUGE variance!
13.5" from top of a 15 inch rim to the fender lip - thats the true, per FSM measurement.
Cranking your T-bars up an inch is extreme, this is a limited travel IFS system, but what you REALLY have to look out for is the front shocks being too short - they will 100% cause your lower ball joints to fail as they put reverse pressure on the ball joint socket (which was not intended and is a weak point) and wears them out extremely fast.
Many aftermarket OEM equivelent manufacturers are making the shocks for our IFS too short. Gabriel is one of them among many others. Do yourself a favor - put the truck on jack stands and let the a arms hang and contact the droop stop. Unhook a shock and try to get it to expand past the lower mount hole. If it cannot, it is too short. Why? Because under flex and jounce the bump stops can compress further than they do hanging gently from the truck being up on jack stands.
So: 13.5" from 15" wheel top to fender lip and ensure shocks are not too short. They will wear your BJs from reverse pressure. If too short, add a half inch nut or washers, there is plenty of thread at the top of the shock to space them down to correct this.
It is my personal opinion that if your shocks are in fact long enough, you wont really do any harm at all running at 14" rim top to fender, which is half an inch over stock. (I understand some want to do this when adding leaves to the rear leaf pack for sagging purposes).
Here is the post: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...via-sm-290498/
On new 225/75 tires @ 26psi the measurment from the front of the lower control arm mounting adjustment bolt (in the dead center of the bolt) you should measure 11.2", with new 31" tires, roughly 12.5". To remove tire sizes from the equation simply measure from a 15" rim top (factory size), to the lip of the fender directly above it. This should measure 13.5". Do not follow that old ball joint spacer web page that talks about the stock heights of a 2nd gen, the body is completely different, plus it says "stock is about 13" to 14", that is a HUGE variance!
13.5" from top of a 15 inch rim to the fender lip - thats the true, per FSM measurement.
Cranking your T-bars up an inch is extreme, this is a limited travel IFS system, but what you REALLY have to look out for is the front shocks being too short - they will 100% cause your lower ball joints to fail as they put reverse pressure on the ball joint socket (which was not intended and is a weak point) and wears them out extremely fast.
Many aftermarket OEM equivelent manufacturers are making the shocks for our IFS too short. Gabriel is one of them among many others. Do yourself a favor - put the truck on jack stands and let the a arms hang and contact the droop stop. Unhook a shock and try to get it to expand past the lower mount hole. If it cannot, it is too short. Why? Because under flex and jounce the bump stops can compress further than they do hanging gently from the truck being up on jack stands.
So: 13.5" from 15" wheel top to fender lip and ensure shocks are not too short. They will wear your BJs from reverse pressure. If too short, add a half inch nut or washers, there is plenty of thread at the top of the shock to space them down to correct this.
It is my personal opinion that if your shocks are in fact long enough, you wont really do any harm at all running at 14" rim top to fender, which is half an inch over stock. (I understand some want to do this when adding leaves to the rear leaf pack for sagging purposes).
Last edited by 89fourrunner; 10-20-2016 at 01:20 PM.
10-20-2016, 01:28 PM
#18
Another huge point I forgot to mention: There are two lower ball joint part numbers. Somewhere in 1988 (I think) they changed the design of the lower control arm. So when you order your balljoints ensure you get the correct ones. One is shorter than the other. It can limit travel and they can wear out fast.
There is a detailed post from another user with pictures of the control arm differences and ball joint differences, maybe you can find it.
There is a detailed post from another user with pictures of the control arm differences and ball joint differences, maybe you can find it.
Last edited by 89fourrunner; 10-20-2016 at 01:29 PM.
10-20-2016, 01:52 PM
#19
Another huge point I forgot to mention: There are two lower ball joint part numbers. Somewhere in 1988 (I think) they changed the design of the lower control arm. So when you order your balljoints ensure you get the correct ones. One is shorter than the other. It can limit travel and they can wear out fast.
There is a detailed post from another user with pictures of the control arm differences and ball joint differences, maybe you can find it.
There is a detailed post from another user with pictures of the control arm differences and ball joint differences, maybe you can find it.
I just ordered OEM Toyota ball joints. Part numbers for left and right as follows:
43340-39175
43330-39195
10-20-2016, 01:59 PM
#20
Registered User
Perhaps the moog lower ball joints I had were the wrong ones? They are these: https://www.amazon.com/Moog-K9587-Ba.../dp/B000C546NU
I just ordered OEM Toyota ball joints. Part numbers for left and right as follows:
43340-39175
43330-39195
I just ordered OEM Toyota ball joints. Part numbers for left and right as follows:
43340-39175
43330-39195
The vin number is the last word on what parts the factory built your truck with.
