abecedarian

"Extended life" coolant only causes problems when you don't realize it's "extened life". If it didn't come with extended life coolant (likely formulated for your engine and its unique combination of dissimilar metals within its construction), it's probably not a good idea to use it.

Anyone that thinks that green coolant can be replaced with green coolant and red can be replaced with red... or pink... or orange for that matter... needs to hit the guy up at the counter and say "I need coolant for...."
It's not like the automakers have the funds to send out letters to everyone saying 'please don't use this coolant if you have a (Chevy, 22RE, Nissan, Yugo...)'. Okay, well maybe now they do... not that they'll spend the money for that, but that's a political topic not related to vehicle maintence.
It's a non-sequitur, or at least should be.
Do you go in asking for "spark plugs"? ... no, you ask for plugs for your engine. And do you go in and ask for an air filter?... no, you ask for a filter for your engine... and same for the oil filter.
So why is it difficult for people to grasp that coolant could be different (and most likely is, as of recent, and may be even retroactive) between engines?

/me calmly steps off of soapbox.

littlecommando

oh my, i did not know this

i just put in the stuff in the yellow bottle, thats what the original owner put in, so i guess that what was in there the whole time...

Tubbyfatty

Thanks for the lesson Abe, haha.

GSGALLANT

Personally, with Toyota red in my system, I would add either Toyota red, or the newer (since mid 2002) Toyota Pink coolant. The Toyota pink and red coolants are 100% compatible with each other (reference TSB PG010-02). That TSB also states that even when using Toyota pink coolant, the maintenance interval should be based on the Toyota red interval... which is strange, because I always thought that the Toyota pink interval was longer. I'll have to check the manual for my Camry to see what interval it specifies (Camry has Toyota pink in it).

mmcpeck

Oh, I didn't even know there was a Red and a Pink, it just looks Red in the coolant resevoir. Toyota replaced the heads and HG's in '06 so I guess what's in there is the Pink, if the Pink has been out since 2002.

Good to know.

OutlawMike

From the Prestone Website:

Prestone® Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant is compatible with ANY antifreeze/ coolant – regardless of color – for use in ALL makes and models of cars and light duty trucks. This patented formula provides a high degree of performance durability and carefully balanced protection against temperature extremes and rust corrosion of all cooling system metals, including aluminum.


They do instruct to drain the coolant from the radiator and motor before adding their stuff.

Jay351

He speaks the truth, use toyota coolant

Windsor

Perhaps the fact that it is a(nother) fluid and not something you thread into the engine is why folks don't put that much thought into antifreeze.

Ferexample, I don't go in and ask for oil for "a Toyota 4Runner."

toyotaforlife

i just bought a '97 4runner and had no clue about the difference between coolants. before a cross country drive i topped off the current red stuff with the prestone extended life green stuff. it's silicate free and that sounds like the conflict between the toyota coolant and others. i just drove a couple thousand miles with it mixed and haven't noticed anything, should i flush it all and replace with a pure toyota/distilled water mix? i only added about a quarter of the prestone jug? thanks, i know next to nothing about cars but im trying to learn pretty quick

sb5walker

That's exactly right. All commonly-available antifreezes are based on ethylene glycol; it's the corrosion inhibitor chemistry that is different and potentially incompatible.

I learned this only after I opened my radiator one day and found the coolant completely opaque and shot through with rust. I had replaced toyota red with prestone, and didn't do a very good job flushing, and I probably used tap water also. I now know that both actions caused chemical reactions that basically used up the corrosion protection chemicals (the silicates) in the new coolant. So the coolant had little corrosion protection and ph buffering capacity, and soon turned acidic, leading to the block getting completely rusted.

Toyota Red uses a phosphate anti-corrosion chemistry. The green stuff uses silicates. Both are inorganic chemistries, but they are incompatible. Phosphates do especially well with iron, and do fine with aluminum, and with copper/brass/lead radiators and heater cores. All Japanese carmakers prefer phosphates.

Silicates (prestone green) are particularly good with aluminum, not as good with iron, and do fine with copper/brass/lead. They are slightly abrasive, and are slightly more likely than phosphates to cause leaks in water pump seals. European carmakers prefer silicates.

The problem with phosphates in particular is that they are the least compatible chemistry - mixing with the minerals in tap water or with a different coolant type will cause the phosphates to precipitate out and clog radiator passages, while at the same time your corrosion protection goes bye-bye.

But both inorganic chemistries must be replaced every two years because the corrosion protection wears out.

Then there came a new type, based on organic acids (so-called OAT types), such as most of the new long life coolants like Dexcool. These are a bad choice for older vehicles because they will corrode copper/brass/lead radiators, and because the OATs react very strongly and harmfully with the inorganics.

In an attempt to address that issue, there came a new type called "Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT). Those include your Prestone yellow, Zerex G-05, and the new Toyota pink (though that is somewhat in a class of its own). The HOATS combine an organic acid (different than the one in DexCool) with inorganic inhibitors. All the HOATs use silicates except Toyota Pink, which uses phosphates. That's why Toyota says it's okay to mix pink & red.

Theoretically, the HOATs are okay to mix with any coolant, but I think only time will prove whether that's true, and I think it is foolish to test their theory in your engine. I remember DexCool was hyped as a cure-all when it came out, too. HOAT chemistry is still acid-based, and for that reason I think you probably don't want to use them in an older vehicle that has copper/brass/lead radiators and heater cores (such as ours). That goes even for the toyota pink. Both the OATs and the HOATs were designed for aluminum rads & heater cores.

If someone doesn't know what type of coolant was in their motor, they should FULLY flush every spec of coolant out, which can take six or more flushes. Be sure to open all the drains (including the one on the block if you can get at it) and make sure your heater temp is all the way to hot to enable the coolant to be washed out of the heater core, too. Helps also to remove the thermostat on a 3vze - don't know about the 22re.

As far as the proper coolant to use, I recommend what Toyota designed for the motor: Toyota Red coolant. Mix it 50/50 with distilled water. Don't under any circumstances use an OAT coolant. Some will say HOATs are okay. I think that assertion is iffy, and anyway it is unproven. Many will say green silicate-based coolants are okay. But Japanese car makers intentionally never used silicates in their engines - they used phosphates instead. Why not use the coolant that was designed for your engine? It's not THAT expensive, and you only have to change it every two years.

rhill

sigh...

well, i'm up way too late reading about coolant on yotatech again. i'm getting ready to do a flush and can't find the red coolant anywhere. my dealer doesn't even sell it anymore, it seems like they totally phased it out for the pink stuff. this might have been covered already, but i haven't found it...i did find this:

http://www.toyotapart.com/ENGINE_COO...T-PG010-02.pdf

but i still would like to use the red stuff that my engine came with should i just get the pink stuff and call it good??

habanero

My dealership is selling the red in a premix- for $16 a gallon. They don't even sell the undilute any more. They didn't offer a pink version.
Not sure what to do on this one, needing to do my flush and fill maintenance soon.

sb5walker

The premix is the Pink stuff. And despite the marketing blah blah coming from Toyota, it is not the same stuff and it isn't completely safe for vehicles with lead/brass/copper radiators and heater cores. This August 2004 article in Motor Magazine refers to an industry test of the Toyota pink HOAT coolant that showed "substantial weight loss (corrosion)" of copper-brass radiators with lead solder.
What a drag that they have discontinued the red coolant.

I see a few alternatives:

First, if Subaru still sells its "Long Life Coolant", P/N SOA868V9210, you're in luck - its ingredients appear to be identical to Toyota Red: Ethylene Glycol, Diethylene glycol, Water, Organic Acid Salt (532-32-1) (which is sodium benzoate), Potassium Hydroxide (1310-58-3) I would still flush well before switching and not mix the two coolants, just to be on the safe side. This would be my first choice if Toyota Red were unavailable.

Second, you could use Prestone Green. On the plus side, it is 100% safe for lead/brass/copper radiators and heater cores. On the neg side, it does not protect from iron corrosion nearly as well as Toyota Red and it MUST be changed every 2 years or 30k miles, whichever comes first. Its buffering capacity is limited and it will cause huge corrosion if you leave it in too long. Also it contains silicates, which all Japanese carmakers avoid and don't recommend.

Another possible choice is using Toyota Pink as suggested by Toyota, but realize that it will eventually eat through your radiator and heater core, forcing you to replace them. You can always replace the radiator with an aluminum one, but I don't know of any aluminum replacement heater cores.

A fourth possibility is to use Zerex G-05, because its main inhibitor is the same as Toyota Red's - sodium benzoate. The ingredients of Zerex G-05 are Ethylene Glycol, Diethylene glycol, Sodium Benzoate (532-32-1), Sodium Tetraborate (1330-43-4). So apparently the only difference between that and Toyota Red is the inorganic inhibitor: hydrated potassium hydroxide in Red vs. sodium tetraborate in the G-05. Some forms of borates have been known to cause aluminum pitting, but apparently G-05 is fine for aluminum.

Be sure to flush thoroughly when switching coolant types. Use a hose on medium flow to backflush the heater core, and remember to flush the plastic overflow reservoir. Make your last flush with distilled water, since a good bit of fluid remains in the heater core and in pockets in the block, and you don't want to mix any antifreeze with tap water. When I do a flush on my veezy, I remove the thermostat so I don't have to wait for the water to get hot and open the t-stat. Since the water lacks the anti-boilover protection of the antifreeze, I don't like to get it too hot.

rhill

where did you find the ingredients for the red coolant? know anyone who's swapped for the subarau long life with good results? if you're right, which you usually are, this is a great option for our engines. here's the stuff:

http://www.fredbeansparts.com/index.php/subaru-long-life-coolant.html?___store=default

it's cheaper, and does NOT come pre-diluted like the new pink stuff, so you get more bang for your buck.

rhill

here's some stuff from bobistheoilguy...

Toyota red long life coolant ingredients:

Ethylene Glycol(107-21-1),Diethylene Glycol(111-46-6) Water(7732-18-5) Orangic Acid Salt(532-32-1) Hydrated Inorganic Salt(1310-58-3).

Toyota pre-diluted pink super long life ingredients:

Water (7732-18-5), Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1), Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6), Sebacic Acid (111-20-6), Potassium Hydroxide (1310-58-3)


"OAT (organic acid technology = the new pink stuff) corrosion inhibitors provide excellent long-term protection for aluminum and cast iron, but may not be the best choice for older cooling systems that have copper/brass radiators and heater cores."

it also sounds like the sebacic acid MAY erode non-AL parts over time...

as i'm typing this i'm realizing this may have all been covered already...

rhill

ok here we go:



looks like they are the same! the benzoate (organic acid salt in the red) is a great anti-corrosive agent for mild steel and lead-solder. it also increases AL heat transfer corrosion, which may be why toyota is doing away with it. i haven't found many places that sell the subaru stuff, but i'm gunna call my local dealer on monday and see if they carry it. hopefully they aren't discontinuing it as well...

sb5walker

I got the ingredients of the Red off the back of an old gallon I have lying around, but I see you found it on bitog. No, I don't know anyone who has substituted Subaru Long Life, but it looks chemically like the same stuff, except I think it's green in color. I discovered it had the same ingredients when I ran across an article on it on endwrench.com last year, but I see the article is no longer accessible. Here's the url in case it becomes accessible again in the future: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/WhatEWNov05.pdf

I'll be curious to hear if the Subaru Long Life stuff is still being sold.

sb5walker

BTW, for other geeks who may be interested in such stuff, here is an interesting in-depth article published in 2002 on the development of the Japanese non-amine type coolants like Toyota's and Subaru's Long Life coolants:

http://www.komatsu.com/CompanyInfo/p...f/149-02_E.pdf