Flame Thrower

good to hear. there is not much if any difference between the old gray 4-hole injectors and the new tan injectors. the new injectors are more consistent injector-to-injector and are less prone to deposits. and they are quieter.

crash813

I've recently put in a set of Flame Thrower's newer tan ones. We had a similar discussion over on t4r.org. Again, several thoughts along the lines of, we need dyno proof. The concept that these are going to transform the 3.0 to a 5.7 is just ridiculous. It would take quite an investment to give accurate results from a dyno and even then, most of the benefits that people are claiming can't even be displayed by a dyno. I've been impressed with the injectors since I've put them in. Idle is noticeable improved and low to mid range has improved. Top end....ie, your hp numbers....no idea....I run a 3.0 auto with 33's. You couldn't feel a 30hp difference, much less the 10 or less top end these may give you. The bottom line is that they represent a value in time and money for a part most would never replace anyways until an absolute failure but are degrading the performance of their vehicle more and more. Here's a pic of a few of the old injectors I pulled out. Tell me which you'd rather run? Also consider the fact that the factory o-rings and groments are around $50 and the downtime and cost to ship your originals one off. Then if one is truely bad, the cost of buying a new one. I'm still waiting to do a full write-up so I can give the most information I can. But, even at this point, I'd recommend without hesitating this upgrade to anyone running injectors that are 20 years old or older. Will be pulling the plugs this weekend to see what 2 weeks of driving on these injectors look like.

Gamefreakgc

It's not as much hype as it is science. I confirmed this with a professional injector service shop, this is all they do.

The 3VZE has a stream-style injection pattern. Meaning it just shoots fuel like a spray bottle on "stream". The fuel only burns when a vapor so it takes a few miliseconds for it to vaporize before burning. These injectors have 4-holes which spray fuel in a mist. Just like if you changed your spray bottle to "spray" instead of "stream". The mist burns immediately since it's atomized and already mixed in the oxygen needed to burn. That translates to quicker throttle response. Some get better MPG's, but that's probably because their old injectors were dirty or clogged. Mine were in great shape so no MPG change.

Flame Thrower

[QUOTE=Gamefreakgc;52199133That translates to quicker throttle response. Some get better MPG's, but that's probably because their old injectors were dirty or clogged. Mine were in great shape so no MPG change.[/QUOTE]

many people adjust their driving style based on the quicker throttle response and improved off-idle performance (smaller throttle opening for the same acceleration in city driving) and see an increase in their mileage.

ford published a white paper a few years back (5?) regarding city driving and throttle response vs gas mileage. they came out with a new algorithm for their fuel mapping. their conclusion was that greater off-idle torque translates to a slight but consistent increase in gas mileage. if i can find that paper from ford, i will link to it.

RSR

Yes, gamefreak's right about the science.

Basically, with our stock stream injectors the fuel goes in as a liquid and sticks to the cylinders walls where it evaporates into a vapor, or doesn't. Much of the fuel that doesn't turn into vapor gets expelled into the exhaust stream, but some stays behind in the cylinder...
So vaporized fuel into the cylinder means the full energy of that fuel is more completely available for immediate and complete combustion. This results in utilizing more of the fuel you're injecting as well as well as a more immediate power response when you punch the accelerator.
Flamethrower's point makes sense too about efficiency due to not needing to punch the pedal to the floor for the power you need...

I look forward to reviews on these new injectors. Our engines run rich when in open loop -- the ECM only controls fuel input when off idle to about 75% WOT, when in closed loop. When in open loop, the 02 sensor isn't consulted for monitoring the fuel/air ratio. So, running injectors with higher flow will result in wasted fuel when in open loop -- the only fuel controls are the injector flow and the fuel pressure regulator, so increased flowing injectors will inject more fuel. I've always been cautious about the Flamethrower Gray, but think they would work great if you get a wideband 02 monitor and are doing the Supra AFM swap (more air all the time which goes well with the more fuel). But b/c our engines run rich during open loop, I don't know that the gray are essential and think any gain over a standard flow would be incremental unless you're fully re-doing your whole air intake, in particular oversized valves and porting the plenum plus a mandrel exhaust.

While Flamethrower and I disagree about the fuel waste in open loop, I don't think he's intentionally trying to mislead and is very transparent on all of his marketing, which I really appreciate. I'm also a perfectionist and a little rigid with my truck mods, so may be a little more cautious/particular than others...

Regardless, I do plan to purchase and run Flamethrowers at some point, but need to do my exhaust, add a wideband 02, and then proceed with the Supra Swap before figuring out which Flamethrower is best.

Flame Thrower

everything that has been said in this thread directly coincides with the videos i have had embedded in my listings since day 1. it's not voodoo, it's the physics of combustion. nothing more, nothing less. i found a better injector to use. and they work.

i have had complaints from people with no data and an axe to grind, who don't have access to anything other than anecdotal evidence. and i am happy to refund their money if they don't work. if you want something that works perfectly all the time, buy a new truck. the dealer will hook you up, no problem.

as an ebay seller, you really have nowhere to hide from bad feedback. if i were misleading anybody about anything, i would be... toast.

RSR

Right, I was clarifying that I'm not accusing you of any sort of malfeasance.

I think that grays just lead to burning some extra fuel unnecessarily in open loop. Why I originally was leaning towards the orange, so I'm excited to see your new ones that are closer to OEM flow rates and look to have a better mist/spray pattern than the orange too.

New yellow: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-Picku...-/271507061431

Old gray: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-4Runn...o/261228448791

Flame Thrower

i hear you on that, and that is a prefectly reasonable conclusion. but if that were true, why and how do they pass california emissions without fail?

Gevo

I just wanted to drop by and give my experience with FLamethrower product and service.

Preamble: I value service over part defects.

If you have been following the "Smog fail" thread you will know that a great deal of my problems were caused by the injectors, orange flamethrowers. It took me a while to figure it out. As soon as I did, I contacted flamethrower and I may have come on a bit thick. Regardless, as annoyed as he was I'm sure, his service and sense of pride for his product were top notch. At-least one of my injectors was defective, he replaced it and then some.

I respect his business and recommend it to all.

As far as the quality of his that product I can speak of (orange flamethrowers) they seem to be doing well now. All the cylinders are even after about 1500 miles since I put new plugs in.

Again, I would trust his word on the information of his products. I generally start every interaction with advertised performance with skepticism

Flame Thrower

and that's why i quit selling the orange injectors. the failure rate was too high. they would start to hang open and close slowly ad they would give too much fuel on a cylinder-by-cylinder basis. it would give the ecu fits and cause all kinds of problems. they would test OK at the shop and fail out in the field. it cost me a fortune and it drove me nuts. i had to walk away.

RSR

I know nothing about CA smog laws. The Toyota OEM cats are fantastic and like I mentioned the default state under idle is a rich condition...

The rich on the top end seems to be in part the fuel tables, but also b/c the AFM is restrictive and enough air can't get in to match the fuel...

Whether my concerns are marginal or not, I don't know, but I do think I have my fact baseline right...

No compromise on spray patterns with your new ones nor a concern about flow rate either. Don't want to beat a dead horse since the options have changed considerably. Bravo on the new ones. Waiting on reviews, but I planned to buy your orange and now have slotted your new ones into the orange's slot on my to dos...

Gevo

I know this isn't Exactly the right thread for this post, but people knowledgeable with the flamethrowers (and flamethrower himself) is here and I have had it.

Quickly, I put the orange flamethrowers on 3k miles ago. One was bad.. bad enough that when the cylinders spark plug was disconnected the engine operation didnt change. Ok, fixed, Flamethrower as I have mentioned was more than helpful.

Ran more or less fine since, except about 200 miles ago. I started getting stumbling and no power. I have been trying to diagnose it, I have checked ALL of my electrical components. I had a bad distributor, changed it but the difference was not noticeable. I thought I had found the problem a few days ago with the TPS, but it wasn't it either. I checked and checked the electrical system, spent most of today doing it. Got new plugs, wires, no change.

Just tested fuel pressure, it's unusually high. With vac line connected to regulator it is 44, with vac disconnected it goes to 50psi.

HERE IS WHERE YOU GUYS COME IN!

Does this look like a sticking or otherwise improperly operating injector? Remember, I don't really have power, but when I rev it slowly from idle it revs and seems to be ok, but it has no power on the street. On top of that, intermittently there is popping in the intake side. From what I have read a lean condition can cause this popping. So, so far the symptoms line up that one or more of the orange flamethrowers are not working properly and causing a lean condition. At throttling quickly from idle, it hesitates a bit and thats when the popping occurs.

It will take about 2 weeks before I get the injectors back, I really need to drive it meanwhile, but it doesn't seem like a good idea.

Also, I should add that I have a code 52. I checked the circuit for the knock sensor and it tests fine. Assuming the knock sensor itself is the problem, if I disconnect it, will the computer go to a default setting or will a code 52 cause ANY of these symptoms? If so, I will go to another thread to discuss that. But, I have a feeling it's the injectors.

PLEASE for the love of God help me figure this out.. I've spent so much time fixing issues like this in only 3000 miles of using it

Flame Thrower

PM sent

supasamurai

Hi guys. I just rebuilt my motor and foolishly put grey flamethrowers in instead of stock injectors. Tonight, after learning all about the differences between VAFM and MAF and lean and rich and stuff like that I've managed to get my truck in a drivable state after about 3 weeks of closing the hood. Four clicks lean in my stock VAFM and finally my truck has some semblance of guts.

I had some stumbles that complicated matters greatly, though. Some big dummy head decided to steal my cat so I had this generic universal cat on there and it just wasn't working. So I got rid of that. Then I had my timing backwards so the first time I tried to start it it completely flooded out the cylinders. Next I had the incorrect amount of oil in there, (too much). Finally, this is my first rebuild, so you live and you learn. Previous to this rebuild, all the cars I've worked on have been strictly mechanical or smashed on the rocks before I got to the rebuild, so this has been a fantastic learning experience.

Flame thrower, you should go fix that ebay description to point to directions on messing with your VAFM and you should get rid of that line that says "your engine computer will adjust the fuel trim and your gas mileage will not be affected" cause that's just wrong. Nobody should be buying these things as direct replacements. I'll be happy to reflect that wish in the ebay feedback if you want, I gave you good feedback because I got nice looking parts quickly and not because I'd gotten a chance to try them.

Inu

The grey tops are oversized for a stock engine in my opinion, however he does sell stock rates. Used to be the orange tops, now I think they are a yellow injector. Glad you have gotten it sorted out.

Flame Thrower

no. and here's why. you have already admitted that you made many mistakes in rebuilding your engine. in doing so you changed and/or altered pretty much everything under the hood. and according to somebody who did not really know what they were doing in the first lace, the only thing it can possibly be at the end of it all is the injectors. sorry, kid. no dice.

i have sold about 1800 sets of these gray injectors on ebay alone. and nobody complains or even mentions that they have to adjust anything at all (and the would certainly complain and the complaints would be publicly visible). they just put them in and run them. no adjustments, nothing.

so we have your anecdotal evidence against over a thousand positive reviews of the same parts. when you make decisions, you disregard anecdotal evidence. no matter who it comes from.

supasamurai

Jeeze Flamey, confrontational much?

Actually, what I do when I make decisions is listen to the anecdotes and then test them with experimentation. Which is what I did in this case. I took an engine where all of the parts were stock and I put your injectors in. Let my highlight that for you. The only non-stock parts in my engine are grey top flamethrower injectors. Everything else is new oem or came right off the old engine. Now then, the experiment went like this: take newly rebuilt engine that doesn't run well and do what everybody on every toyota forum says to do (anecdotally) and adjusted my VAFM a few clicks lean and see how she does. Bam, runs just fine. Experimental evidence tells me that my fuel mixture was running too rich and based off my experiment, I'll point to the only non stock part on the car, the injectors, as the culprit.

If you've got some reason to believe that I may be wrong, I'm all ears, man. I'd love to have some help with tweeking this thing if you've got something to share.

And don't get me wrong, I like these things. I like the fact that I have high performance parts in my car. I feel like I made the right decision in getting them. I just wish I had know that the parts I was getting were parts that needed extra tuning. I could have been on the road a long time ago if you had a link on the ebay page saying something like:

"some folks like to adjust their VAFM when they put these guys in, here's a link to exactly how to do that,"

or even a link to the other injector set, something like, "you might want to check these injectors out too, they might be a better fit for a bone stock engine and are a plug and play alternative to the stock injectors"

It's not like this stuff is rocket science, Flamey, just a little targeted marketing adjustment is all.

tailsgunner

I also originally ordered the gray ones, but after reading that some of the guys had an issue with the car running rich and having to adjust their MAF sensor, etc, I asked to have the gray ones traded in for the yellow injector. It took about two tanks of gas before the ecu finally adjusted the air/fuel mixture.

oldblue

i don't think he's being confrontational, just right. you're first post was to come on here and talk bad about his product. but it seems as though your problems are self induced and not faulty parts. i don't see how flamethrower doesn't get more negative feedback though with amateur mechanics working on these old trucks and goofing stuff up.

supasamurai

Did you come on here to bitch old blue, or did you have something you wanted to add to the conversation?