99 sas runner

im doing a head gasket on a friends 22ret with a cometic head gasket and arp studs, just got the head back from the machine shop put it together, started it and seen it was leaking oil every were. thats when i figured out the head studs are hitting the valve cover. i dont know what to do?! can i take them out one at a time and replace them with regular head bolts? or will a older rounder 22r valve cover have more clearance? im sure its because the head must have been surfaced a few times before this. i need it done tomorrow so he can take it to moab! thanks in advanced!!

99 sas runner

anyone?

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

Can you trim the top of the studs? Take a cutoff wheel and cut them off. Are these studs ACTUALLY designed for a 22R engine? I doubt ARP is putting out a product that won't work correctly.

snobdds

I've never had an issue with fitment of ARP head studs. If the head has been shaved to make it true, then a HG shim should have been used to bring everything back to the correct height. Also, if the holes have not been cleaned and chased properely, then the studs will not seat correctly.

I would take the head off, measure to see what kind of shim to use, get new gasket and shim, clean all holes really well, then put everything together.

I would not reuse the headgasket since it's already been tacked down.

Sportsmanphil

A head shim is for a decked block, if he uses a shim with a factory deck length he will loose a good bit of compression ratio.

IMO, im curious if the stud holes were cleaned out and the studs did not bottom out.

The idea that a decked cyl head has caused the studs to hit is saying that ARP studs only have a few thousands of clearance from the valve cover on a factory spec engine...that said I doubt it seriously.

By chance did you get the rocker assembly seated? There are centering sleeves that sometimes are a bit difficult to get lined up.

On top of that, did you back the valve adjusting studs out before seating the head/rocker assembly during final head torque?

Remove the valve cover and look at where the rocker assembly meets the cyl head and make sure they all are flush and touching the head. The valve cover bolts by way of this rocker assembly and if that rocker assembly is not down all the way, neither will your valve cover be down all the way.

Take some pics also, valve cover on, off, rocker assembly etc.

snobdds

A shim can be used for both the head being shaved and the block being decked. Same principle applies in both circumstances. Maybe your confusing this with if a block is decked, and you don't use a shim, then an adjustable cam gear in needed?

Also, there is not much clearence bewteen ARP studs and the rocker cover when seated correctly. Only speaking from experience here

Sportsmanphil

Head has a spec to shave to, if you pass that you are asking for issues, which is why you have a spec for such.

If you deck the block, now your pistions can/may extend beyond deck surface and could come in contact with the head preventing the engine from rotating, hence the shim.

If you deck your head to the point of needing a shim, you need a head.

Not sure where some of these APR head studs are coming from but I had plenty of clearance with mine.

snobdds

And if you shave a head to spec and don't use a shim, what happens to the valves? Are you saying they won't slam aginst the pistons?

Timing will not be right if the distance from the cam sprocket to the crank sprocket is not exact. Any time you shave either the block or the head, a shim must be use to bring that distance back to stock. That is the only way you can keep the motor in proper time. Your timing chain will also have too much slack in it.

Sportsmanphil

SUre, if you dont set your timing chain correctly.

When the piston is at TDC,, your valves are supposed to be closed. Knocking a few thousands off a head wont back the timing so far that the valves remain below deck level. However if you do remove more than .02 you will find cam timing is 'affected' but you wont crash valves.

A quote from LC Engineering:

From stock deck height measurements, LC Engineering recommends for "street use", no more than 0.020" of re-surfacing or use a head shim (Part# P8807) to achieve proper deck height. Anytime you deck a head, block or both, by more than 0.010" you are affecting the camshaft timing with the engine resulting in a "Lazy" motor. If increased compression is the goal, or the surface requires "decking" because of minor warping, then an adjustable camshaft gear (Part# 19-1052 single row or Part# 19-1055 double row) will be ideal.

xxxtreme22r

Here we go again and I know this is gonna cause some arguements but....

"Knocking a few thousands off a head wont back the timing so far that the valves remain below deck level."

The 22r series motors are interference motors. What does that mean? Even without decking the engine, the valves open below the deck surface. This is why there are valve reliefs cut in the piston tops.

Shims are only meant to go below the head gasket not above it. Might be confusing but this is what I mean.....only for use with decking a block not the head. Case and point, quench. If a shim is used when the head has been shaved it affects the ability to 0 quench the engine. Meaning your piston tops will no longer be considered to be even with the deck surface as the shim becomes your new deck surface. I can go into more but it's not relevant to the thread and has been covered a few times.

99 sas runner

i can cut them and they are seated all the way. i got a 22r (round valve cover) and it looks like it might clear. with that said i will let you all know how it goes soon. and yes they are ment for a 22r

Sportsmanphil

Ive done some digging on several forums and have found no one having the same issue you are having.

You might want to give ARP a call and find out what their stud OAL spec is, its possible they were packaged wrong. This ofcourse will require you to pull one and measure it.

Also, are all the studs roughly the same height?

Sportsmanphil

Exactly.

99 sas runner

they all stick out the same! if this is arps fault are they gonna pay for my time and the 100 cometic gasket?

snobdds

Ahh...more internet forums misinformation that keeps getting repeated to the point where people think it's true. Now I know this topic had been beat to death, but the OP needs to understand his timing will not be correct unless a shim or adjustable cam gear is used. So context is everything

If you take off .002 of the head and use a .002 shim then the quench is 0. The idea is to put back what you took out.

I don't see how removing .002 off the head and not putting a shim back in we get a quench of 0? It would be < 0 quench by .002.

Now I agree that a shim goes below the headgasket, but a shim's only purpose is to put back material that was removed to keep the cam and crank distance stock.
Even the quote above from LC Engineering shows a shim is needed on a head shave due to the timing being off. I have seen first hand the effect on timing when shaving a head especially on a 22RE engine. It will not be right, no matter how much adjusting is done.

Sportsmanphil

Negative Ghost Rider,

It states "From stock deck height measurements, LC Engineering recommends for "street use", no more than 0.020" of re-surfacing or use a head shim (Part# P8807) to achieve proper deck height."

Deck height has NOTHING to do with the head. Take the head off, throw it in the trash and you still have a measurable deck height. Deck height is the distance between the center of the crank to the top of the block.

Read LC's quote carefully.

snobdds

I think, once again you keep confusing the two, situations. You keep bringing deck height into this when I am only referring to circumstances where one needs to shave the head to make it true again? A head is not bad just because it needs to be shaved to be true again. Like I've said...this has been discussed many times before and has been beat to death. Search around and the truth will find you...

xxxtreme22r

Quench does not take into account head chamber size. it is strictly piston top to bottom of head including the headgasket.

I repeat shims are only to use if you are shaving the block NOT the head. Yes it will correct the cam timing, but no it does not help your quench values. In fact it puts you at negative quench.

The quench distance is the compressed thickness of the head gasket plus the deck clearance. The quench area is the flat part of the piston that would contact a similar part of the head if you had .000 assembled quench height. In a running engine, the quench height decreases to a close collision between the piston and the cylinder head. Adding the shim increases this distance if used on a block that has not been shaved.

I have also seen alot of people confuse themselves between quench and Compression ratio. These are two separate things. One reason being because quench values affect CR but CR does not affect quench values.

And so I understand show me 1 solid piece of evidence that these 22r engines are NOT interference engines. I know the 3vze isn't but the 22r as far as I have seen are.

James Woods

iTrader: (1)

So I know its a basic question but did you blow the holes clear before you installed the bolts? Taking the head off gets messy sometimes and the holes can fill up with coolant or oil and then when you put the bolts in it "hydro locks" and the bolts wont go down any further, just something to think of.

Sportsmanphil

Here is something to search,,,,,,the thousands of shaved heads on this forum and many others that DID NOT use a shim and have no issues.

So why use a shim on a shaved deck (block) and not a cyl head... lets make the numbers extreme for visual reasons.

A bare block with pistons. We are only going to use #1 cyl.

With #1 at top dead center, the top of the piston is maxed out its stroke and meets the deck surface of the block. Now shave a full inch off the block and re-assemble the engine.

Now at top dead center the pistion will stick out of the block a full inch. IF you bolt the head down the piston will hit the head and will not allow the crank to turn fully over.

In this case you will need a 1inch shim.

Now shave that same inch off the head and leave the block stock. The pistons still will roll over TDC and not contact the head. (however in this EXTREME case its impossible but again its used for a good visual)

What you cannot explain is the thousands of people that have shaved the heads on their 22RE, 3RZ, SBC, SBF, Hemi (every engine out there) (OHC or pushrod design) and have not used a shim.

A cyl head has a spec to cut, just like every other machined surface in an automobile (flywheels, rotors, drums) If you exceed that spec, you must replace the head. If you instead use a shim, you are band-aiding the problem. Thats like saying when your kid out grows his shoes, you cut the toes off the shoes and let him wear them longer instead of buying new shoes.