Headgasket 101 and discussion 22R/22RE
10-22-2010, 04:34 AM
#42
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: WNC
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i just finished a front/top end rebuild on my 22re. i bought the Japan Made Nippon Reinz (JMNR) head gasket kit. it was twice the price, but i had it next to the Rock. the difference was more than noticable in the quality. every gasket fit like a glove. i used the rock on my brother in laws 22re. it seemed ok, but for piece of mind the extra couple bucks is worth it.
Where'd ya get this HG kit?
10-23-2010, 04:34 AM
#43
Registered User
I'm late to this thread, but it's a good one.
I wish I had known that before I bought parts for my rebuild.
Exactly. With so many parts having widely varying prices (for even the same exact thing), finding that line is difficult, particularly for the first time DIYer (me).
I'm not yet condemning Rock brand parts as a whole, but from my limited experience they are a crapshoot. I had to return an oil pump with clearances that measured out of spec. I also paid to exchange head bolts that were so crooked that they wobbled when rolling across the floor (and bound on the sides of the head when screwing in by hand). I wasn't impressed with the overall quality or fit of Rock gaskets. The few factory ones I bought from Toyota were better quality (and pricey).
As for appearance of current Toyota factory head gaskets vs. Rock, from pictures good luck telling much difference. Everything I found showed them to be essentially the same format. When I asked here about differences, IIRC, someone said they look the same from a distance, but up close the metal parts of the Toyota gasket layed in better with the underlying material. Something like that.
I debated whether to buy a head gasket from Toyota or try the Rock, which Ted assured was every bit as good. I went with the Rock. Time will tell, but most likely I'll end up pulling the engine and redoing the rebuild before the gasket has a chance to fail because it seems the Rock piston rings haven't properly seated. Ugh. I don't know who is to blame for that. Maybe the machinist. Maybe even me. I'm just an inquisitive dummy first timer. The ring issue may have ruined all my effort.
I corresponded with Ted a lot throughout my rebuild. Also did a lot of reading/researching. Ted has repeatedly said that the newer style gaskets require 64 ft/lbs head bolt torque. I posted several e-mails from him (with his permission) in my rebuild thread about head bolt torque. Of course, torque, even if the wrench is accurate is only an approximation of the clamping force applied.
I was surprised how much a few of my head bolts turned after the initial run, even though I had lightly oiled them and worked them in by repeatedly tightening and loosening in sequence to ramp up to the final torque. The threads were clean.
Re:torque wrench accuracy, many wrenches are probably significantly off. Having read good things about the cheap ones from Harbor Freight, a friend and I each bought one on sale. I tested, best as I could within my means, the clickers that I had on hand to compare. I posted the results here. I'm glad the wrench I used for my head bolts was the closest, but I see how actual torque specs with non-calibrated wrenches can vary greatly.
When I mentioned to Ted that Marlin likes to check head bolt torque at each valve adjustment, Ted replied:
"Glad you got her running. I suggest rechecking the head bolts after a full warmup and again at 500 miles, usually no need to after that."
Ted's head bolt installation recommendation written in 2007 is at http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showth...087&page=&vc=1
It all boils down to money. Nobody is willing to pay 3,200 for a rebuilt long block. Everyone has beaten down the price to about 1,100 - 1,200. It can be achieved with kits from the likes of Rock. But you get what you pay for.
Factory parts are expensive, very expensive and there can be good quality alternitives that come close to or match the quality for much less.
So it all boils down to a happy medium. Keep costs down but deliver a motor that lasts as long as possible. That fine line can be hard to achieve sometimes.
Factory parts are expensive, very expensive and there can be good quality alternitives that come close to or match the quality for much less.
So it all boils down to a happy medium. Keep costs down but deliver a motor that lasts as long as possible. That fine line can be hard to achieve sometimes.
I'm not yet condemning Rock brand parts as a whole, but from my limited experience they are a crapshoot. I had to return an oil pump with clearances that measured out of spec. I also paid to exchange head bolts that were so crooked that they wobbled when rolling across the floor (and bound on the sides of the head when screwing in by hand). I wasn't impressed with the overall quality or fit of Rock gaskets. The few factory ones I bought from Toyota were better quality (and pricey).
As for appearance of current Toyota factory head gaskets vs. Rock, from pictures good luck telling much difference. Everything I found showed them to be essentially the same format. When I asked here about differences, IIRC, someone said they look the same from a distance, but up close the metal parts of the Toyota gasket layed in better with the underlying material. Something like that.
I debated whether to buy a head gasket from Toyota or try the Rock, which Ted assured was every bit as good. I went with the Rock. Time will tell, but most likely I'll end up pulling the engine and redoing the rebuild before the gasket has a chance to fail because it seems the Rock piston rings haven't properly seated. Ugh. I don't know who is to blame for that. Maybe the machinist. Maybe even me. I'm just an inquisitive dummy first timer. The ring issue may have ruined all my effort.
I corresponded with Ted a lot throughout my rebuild. Also did a lot of reading/researching. Ted has repeatedly said that the newer style gaskets require 64 ft/lbs head bolt torque. I posted several e-mails from him (with his permission) in my rebuild thread about head bolt torque. Of course, torque, even if the wrench is accurate is only an approximation of the clamping force applied.
I was surprised how much a few of my head bolts turned after the initial run, even though I had lightly oiled them and worked them in by repeatedly tightening and loosening in sequence to ramp up to the final torque. The threads were clean.
Re:torque wrench accuracy, many wrenches are probably significantly off. Having read good things about the cheap ones from Harbor Freight, a friend and I each bought one on sale. I tested, best as I could within my means, the clickers that I had on hand to compare. I posted the results here. I'm glad the wrench I used for my head bolts was the closest, but I see how actual torque specs with non-calibrated wrenches can vary greatly.
Originally Posted by Hilux808 quoting Ted
We do reset them as a final to 63-64# ourselves but you obviously did a good uniform job and that is far more important than the final torque number.
At 4000 miles she is fully set, so I would just retorque as part of the annual tuneup, we always suggest doing that anyway.
I wouldn't be too worried about it, just use the 58# setting, that works for the factory..
At 4000 miles she is fully set, so I would just retorque as part of the annual tuneup, we always suggest doing that anyway.
I wouldn't be too worried about it, just use the 58# setting, that works for the factory..
"Glad you got her running. I suggest rechecking the head bolts after a full warmup and again at 500 miles, usually no need to after that."
Ted's head bolt installation recommendation written in 2007 is at http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showth...087&page=&vc=1
10-23-2010, 04:38 AM
#44
Registered User
flyingbrass it took mine a while (about 3000-6000 to actually seat in the rock rings. but they did. I have 170 across the board with them and the 20 over bore and 10 thous off the block.
fyi alot of times when rings don't seat it's not because of the rings, it's because of the way the cyls were finish honed or the actual break in procedure.
fyi alot of times when rings don't seat it's not because of the rings, it's because of the way the cyls were finish honed or the actual break in procedure.
10-23-2010, 04:06 PM
#45
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bremerton, WA
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just saw this thread while looking for some info on cleaning the block for replacing a head gasket. I rebuilt my engine 25000 miles ago and have a blown HG. I rebuilt it using a rebuild kit from Ted, all Rock Auto parts. I don't think the rings on my pistons have ever seated properly, trucks runs fine but have alot of blowby and compression is all around 125. The HG blew last week on the #4 piston.
Probably going to spring for OEM HG kit, don't want to have to mess with this again in another 25k. As for the blowby, that may just force me into a 3RZ swap!
Probably going to spring for OEM HG kit, don't want to have to mess with this again in another 25k. As for the blowby, that may just force me into a 3RZ swap!
10-24-2010, 09:45 PM
#46
Registered User
fyi alot of times when rings don't seat it's not because of the rings, it's because of the way the cyls were finish honed or the actual break in procedure.
Getting back to head gaskets, Ted says uneven clamping force is the most common cause of failures in these engines. I can buy that. However, it also makes sense that the best quality gaskets may be less prone to failing even with clamping force variations (which should always exist to some degree).
84YotaBuck, did you recheck/retorque your head bolts after the first run, and then again later? What initial torque setting did you use, 58 or 64ish? Were your deck and head surfaces straight and clean?
Last edited by flyingbrass; 10-24-2010 at 09:53 PM.
10-25-2010, 01:10 PM
#48
Does anyone know if there's a stud set for the 22R-E head?
We're talking about how important clamping force is and how much clamping force can vary with bolts, it just made me wonder. I don't know of a better way to ensure even, accurate clamping.
We're talking about how important clamping force is and how much clamping force can vary with bolts, it just made me wonder. I don't know of a better way to ensure even, accurate clamping.
10-25-2010, 01:13 PM
#49
Registered User
search been talked about many times.
10-29-2010, 01:15 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now I must chime in, I built my engine myself, did all the machine work, I know that when I surfaced my head we used an RA meter and it was smooth as glass on block and head, I used Rock Auto parts from Engnbldr, I used his pistons with moly rings. It has been a while since I did this rebuild and it has also been a while since I owned the truck, BUT I put 20k miles on the truck alot of them with the skinny pedal to the floor, i did not have a tach in the truck but I was constantly in first low bouncing off th rev limiter. (89 22re if it matters)
I can tell you this, I prelubed everything and properly torqued everything, I torque plate honed the head, after honing with standard fine grit stones, I used whats called a brush hone, With the torque plate installed, I was within .0005 of a perfect cylinder IN ALL DIRECTIONS. what that SHOULD mean is that when I bolted the head on, it should have been fairly close to perfect, My engine before EVER firing up and breaking in cylinders had 185psi in all cylinders(remember I did prelube everything so there could have been some oil in cylinders and on valve seats to really help these #s) upon firing up, there was a cloud of pre-lube smoke, I let it idle for a few minutes with some blueish smoke coming out the tail pipe. after about five minutes the smoke stopped completely.
I put 500 miles on the thing with the oil level exactly where it was when I filled it, I changed the oil it was still clean as new, didn't look like break in oil at all. I beat the hell out of it for the rest of the time I owned it. ate three clutches, a few trannys and thirds in the 20k I owned it. I really think the rings should be blamed a lot on the setup of the cylinder walls. I know you used to be able to buy a product that would actually LAP the cylinder walls if your rings never set right(freaky stuff, I would change my oil after using it for sure)
Ok, thats all I think I had say, OH at the time I built my engine, one of the local shops gave me three felpro headgaskets for free, they bought felpro kits but sourced the HG's from another company
I can tell you this, I prelubed everything and properly torqued everything, I torque plate honed the head, after honing with standard fine grit stones, I used whats called a brush hone, With the torque plate installed, I was within .0005 of a perfect cylinder IN ALL DIRECTIONS. what that SHOULD mean is that when I bolted the head on, it should have been fairly close to perfect, My engine before EVER firing up and breaking in cylinders had 185psi in all cylinders(remember I did prelube everything so there could have been some oil in cylinders and on valve seats to really help these #s) upon firing up, there was a cloud of pre-lube smoke, I let it idle for a few minutes with some blueish smoke coming out the tail pipe. after about five minutes the smoke stopped completely.
I put 500 miles on the thing with the oil level exactly where it was when I filled it, I changed the oil it was still clean as new, didn't look like break in oil at all. I beat the hell out of it for the rest of the time I owned it. ate three clutches, a few trannys and thirds in the 20k I owned it. I really think the rings should be blamed a lot on the setup of the cylinder walls. I know you used to be able to buy a product that would actually LAP the cylinder walls if your rings never set right(freaky stuff, I would change my oil after using it for sure)
Ok, thats all I think I had say, OH at the time I built my engine, one of the local shops gave me three felpro headgaskets for free, they bought felpro kits but sourced the HG's from another company
10-29-2010, 02:04 PM
#51
Registered User
i apologize for not reading more than about 3 posts in this thread. but heres a comparison between a toyota and fel-pro HG (only one side, got a picture of the other side on my phone still)
i used to disregard the difference, but from now on i'm using OEM exclusively. the price difference is not great enough to sacrifice peace of mind
i used to disregard the difference, but from now on i'm using OEM exclusively. the price difference is not great enough to sacrifice peace of mind
11-16-2010, 12:18 PM
#52
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd like to update this thread with a little something I have run into.
First, I still recommend using a Toyota HG if possible, my second choice is still the Victor gasket I mentioned. But there is a hitch. I recently ordered 10 gaskets 3 of them were NOT victor. True Victor HG's are stamped "Victor" into the gasket. Victor must have run low or had some kind of production problem so they tossed some other brands gasket into their packaging. They were shrink wrapped from the factory.
As a side note I thoroughly hate how all these companies package and repackage parts. I buy from a company because I want their part not whatever they want to toss into a package. GRRR
EDIT EDIT EDIT I have now learned Victor is not manufacturing gaskets in America anymore. The new gasket they sell is from China (I was told this by a west coast sales rep) So that means the gasket they sell is totally unproved in reliablility.
I now ONLY use Toyota OEM headgaskets in my rebuilt engines. More and More I have learned it's much better to use top quality Toyota parts than saving 10 bucks here and there and paying for it in the end.
!!!
First, I still recommend using a Toyota HG if possible, my second choice is still the Victor gasket I mentioned. But there is a hitch. I recently ordered 10 gaskets 3 of them were NOT victor. True Victor HG's are stamped "Victor" into the gasket. Victor must have run low or had some kind of production problem so they tossed some other brands gasket into their packaging. They were shrink wrapped from the factory.
As a side note I thoroughly hate how all these companies package and repackage parts. I buy from a company because I want their part not whatever they want to toss into a package. GRRR
EDIT EDIT EDIT I have now learned Victor is not manufacturing gaskets in America anymore. The new gasket they sell is from China (I was told this by a west coast sales rep) So that means the gasket they sell is totally unproved in reliablility.
I now ONLY use Toyota OEM headgaskets in my rebuilt engines. More and More I have learned it's much better to use top quality Toyota parts than saving 10 bucks here and there and paying for it in the end.
!!!
Last edited by Trainwreckinseattle; 03-03-2011 at 12:18 AM.
11-16-2010, 03:23 PM
#55
Registered User
11-16-2010, 09:12 PM
#58
forgive me if it has been mentioned before on this thread but have any of you used topline head gasket kits? I used them and the quality was close to oem and the price was fair as well. I asked my 22re guy about the rock gaskets and he assured me the topline was a better quality kit. Not saying the rock is a bad kit or faulty in Any way but if a guy that has built 22r's/re's for 20+ years tells me the topline kit is a better kit i'm buying it. Just my thoughts. If i need another< god forbid, head gasket kit it'll be topline for sure. I actually wonder why ted doesn't use their kit if he does in fact use the topline casting for his heads. If it's good enough for the head then why is it not good enough for the gasket? Maybe then again i'm missing something.
12-29-2010, 02:53 PM
#59
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Question: Does anyone here lightly coat their head gaskets with a copper based spray paint before installing?? I've heard of people doing it, but haven't heard much with the 22re. Any thoughts?
