FirstGenRunner

To start this is in regards to an 88 3VZE runner with 95K on it.

Like most, everything has been running great and strong. Risking the roads during Hurricane Irene, it STB on me. I don't even think the engine was warm yet. Going up a hill, it literally just crapped out. No go on starting or even close again. Got towed back.

The next day, replaced the fuel pump. Everything went as planned. Cranked it up and no problems started up once fuel got to the motor. It ran for about an hour. I drove out to fill the tank, drove around running errands. No problems. Next day, I wake up to leave the country for a bit. Get to the hwy and it crapped out on me. Same symptom. Just died. I managed to get it started again and get back to the driveway to grab something else.

It sat for 3.5wks while I was away. No fail, as soon as I got back to the apt. after the trip I threw the key in the ignition and it started up no problem. The next day I go out and start it up. It's not running five mins maybe and the engine cuts out. OK. I had picked up a new battery (since I killed the original trying to get it running on the side of the road in high winds and rain.) and a fuel filter. Didn't think this'd be the source, but believe this was the original and it needed it anyways. At least I'd be able to disconnect the line and ensure the pump is pushing fuel out. I wanted to ensure it even though I could hear it running. Plenty of fuel was released to the ground.

Threw in a new filter and tried to start it up again. No dice. Cleaned up and let it sit. Tried to start and it sounded like it was going to go. It's that initial high rev and then it's done. Try it a couple more times and nothing. Let it sit for a bit and the exact same response.

I pulled a plug and inspected it. It looked white, and I didn't smell any fuel. I'm thinking it's something with the fuel delivery system.

I jumped the info box and was surprised to find an error code coming up since I'd never seen a check engine light lit before. The error code is coming up with code 14. "Ignition circuit break".

Figuring the coil I checked the resistance and everything seemed to check out.

A couple questions:
1. What's next?
2. Has anybody seen the code or have a direction for me?
3. I know there is a pressure release valve near the fuel rail. I saw it when I replaced the valve cover gaskets. It looks like I'd use the same tool as I would to pull the valve out of a tire stem. I for the life of me can't remember where I saw it. I was thinking I could try to purge this.
4. Is there any need to bleed the fuel system?

It's now raining, dark and I don't know if I'm getting spark. I know i need to check that.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

skypilot

iTrader: (1)

Bad coils can test fine. Does it run in the rain? Or doesit only run in sunshine? Might be the igniter too.

FirstGenRunner

It doesn't run at all right now. Slight sputter as if it wants to go and then dies. I can get this repetitively now at least.

Any chance for vapor lock in the rail? The car is parked on an incline.

Ok, so I know I have fuel at the rail. I pulled the hose off the overflow valve and had plenty of fuel.

I tested the spark off the ignition coil and at the spark plug. Spark at both. I'm assuming if the coil or igniter was bad there wouldn't be any spark right?

Reset the engine codes and tried to restart. Same error code coming up after the start. BUT the engine now sounds like it wants to start each time. It's like it gets going and then dies.

I pulled a plug and ran it to see if i could get some gas mix out of the cylinder. Nada. I assume I'd see something blow out right?

thook

Hmmm.....highly unlikely to have vapor lock. EFI systems with inline fuel pumps are prone to that, but not systems with a submersible. Not saying it can't ever happen, but it's very unlikely.

Is there a chance you could get someone to help you for a moment? You need to check for injector pulse....not the cold start system, but the injectors. Have someone crank over the engine for several seconds. You should hear the injectors pulsing. If not, it means you have a signal problem from the distributor to the ECU and the injectors won't fire.

This may be of help:http://autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf

FirstGenRunner

Hmmm.....highly unlikely to have vapor lock. EFI systems with inline fuel pumps are prone to that, but not systems with a submersible. Not saying it can't ever happen, but it's very unlikely.

Is there a chance you could get someone to help you for a moment? You need to check for injector pulse....not the cold start system, but the injectors. Have someone crank over the engine for several seconds. You should hear the injectors pulsing. If not, it means you have a signal problem from the distributor to the ECU and the injectors won't fire.

This may be of help:[/QUOTE]

Having someone else start it, i see voltage going to the injectors. That's telling me they have to be firing. Now you could make the argument that the injector itself is bad. Maybe one, but not all six, and it's pretty loud in there, but I'm pretty sure I hear it clicking. Next step is to test the fuel pressure at the rail i guess. I guess it is possible the dump valve or whatever the real term is, is that it ˟˟˟˟ the bed and is not allowing any pressure at the rail.

I let it crank for about twenty seconds. Pulled a plug on both sides, both are white and smell of zero gas.

skypilot

iTrader: (1)

Here
s from a previous post. I remember something about the wiring between alternator being a cause.

I'm also getting a code 14 which has to deal with IGF and/or IGT between the Igniter and the ECM.

thook

How are you "seeing" voltage going to the injectors? A volt meter? Noid light?

I meant to post a link in my first reply.......sorry. It's now there and in red. Check out that link. It shows the IG circuitry. Read, particularly, page 7 noting explanation of the IGf circuit/ECU relationship.

FirstGenRunner

Ok, so an update as this was a while ago. I had given up on it and brought it to the garage. They tried replacing the igniter with a used one. Then the ECM got replaced. The truck ran great for three months. I toss the original ECM and two days later it craps out on me again. So I've been looking into it. I tested through the ECM going through the FSM. Everything checks out. I actually came across a third ECM. Tested that and it's not the ECM. So I picked up a noid light and see that I actually don't have power going to the injectors.

Now I can assume the IGf signal isn't coming into the ECM. Now I haven't been able to find anything on how to test that signal at the ECM though. I have spark coming out of the igniter/coil.

Now the weird part...this only happens when it's raining or really humid out. It runs perfect either. I tried throwing a new dist. cap in it since it was all of $12. I've tried using a spray bottle and don't see any shorts anywhere. It also ran fine when spraying water in there.

This 14 code is killing me now.

skypilot

iTrader: (1)

Classic coil. Car will not run in the rain.

Very rare but your ignition coil is toast.

FirstGenRunner

Correct me if i'm wrong, but if it was the coil I wouldn't see any spark right? I checked spark coming directly out of the coil, and down at the plug. There was spark in both places. Now maybe I'm losing it, but I did notice last night out int he rain the spark was an orange color. Isn't spark usually like a clear/blue/white color?

The other thing of note is I tried another used coil/igniter combo, and yielded the same result. Now it is worth mentioning that I didn't know this other coil to work. It came from a boneyard.

By any chance is the coil/igniter the same on the 22RE motor? I have one I know works in another vehicle. Just wasn't sure if it handled the ECM messages the same.

skypilot

iTrader: (1)

No engineer with a fancy degree has ever been able to explain to me why certain coils are affected by "weather", particularly rain. I did open one up and the oil inside had a burnt smell to it, maybe the oil broke down in that one. There is no reason for moisture to affect an electromagnetic field and the operation of a transformer, In theory its impossible. But in the real world some high voltage coils are and that orange color you noticed is a sign of it. The only common symptom is they do not make enough spark when rain is in the air, and run fine when the sun is out.

Someone once said ignition coils are position sensitive and the two 12vdc posts have to be down so gravity covers them with oil and are thus insulated and cooled. But I think that is a cause for them to go open and not run at all. A separate issue from weather that is very rare and it may be the only one you ever see. I'm 53 and I can count on one hand the number I have seen have this behavior.

It just one of those pieces of knowledge handed down to me by all the really old mechanics I have apprenticed with. Some things are just not in books and are passed on in folklore.

FirstGenRunner

Just a quick update in case it helps anybody:

Dropped in anohter ECU, coil/igniter, dist cap, and distributor. Same thing. Humidity was high last night. No rain.

Car started ran for about a minute and died out. Dreaded Error code 14.

At this point l'm lost. Rotors are cheap, i could toss one in, but am willing to bet it's not that. Time to hit craigs list, b/c i am not stripping an re-wrapping the wiring harness.

abecedarian

Okay, I'm going to play the antagonist here.

What's "Code 14"?
IGF signal not received by ECU for 6 consecutive ignition events.

Translation: the igniter signals IGF to the ECU each time a spark plug fires IF the igniter detects combustion took place. If the ECU does not receive IGF at least once over each 6 times the igniter tries to fire a plug, code 14 is thrown. This means the ECU has no reliable way of detecting that combustion is taking place so it stops the engine.
IGF is a fairly complicated thing the igniter does: it measures conductivity / continuity within the cylinder through the spark plug. Since fuel is burning, and is a plasma, there should be some continuity / conductivity through the coil through ground, that the igniter can measure.
A little train of thought is required: the igniter sees the engine turning over, the ECU sees this also since some igniter signals are seen by the ECU. The igniter handles ignition timing while the engine is being cranked over to start, and for a short time after the engine starts, until the ECU is ready to take over ignition timing.

{Incidentally, this is (mostly) what is going on when you jump the connectors in the diagnostic plug to set your timing: keeping the ECU from automatically adjusting timing- setting the igniter's "basic timing" but I digress}

Given the code is still there after coil, ECU, etc....
Have you actually checked the wiring from the igniter to the ECU for continuity AND any possible breaks in the insulation that may be shorting it out?
None of the "pins" in the connectors are loose and aren't possibly vibrating, thus breaking connection?
All the wiring is actually the way it should be: nothing tapped in for some purpose like ignition kill for an alarm or such?

If I'm wrong about this, I hope someone jumps in to correct me.

FirstGenRunner

I like where the antagonist was going. I think the frustration sidetracked me. Yeah, this makes complete sense. From your questions I can say for sure that:
1. None of the pins/connectors at the igniter or computer are loose. I've made it a point to jiggle/shake/move the actual wires (from the igniter, wiring harness, and any I've found int eh engine compartment) or ECM when I've had the car running and it still runs like a champ.
2. All wiring is the way it should be. The car is mind blowingly stock in the design. There has never been any hack-mc-whack wiring jobs added to the car.

That said....you suggest checking the continuity between the igniter and the ECM. I checked each of the grounds that come into the ECM, and main connections for shorts but never checked the actual IGF wire itself. So, I will do this. And going by what your description, there is one thing you didn't suggest, that could be the cause as well right? So b/c it's six successive failures (one for each plug), and b/c the igniter measures the circuit to the plug, the only other single wire would be the wire going between the ignition coil and the distributor. I did take a rotor that was known to be working and saw the same result. If it were one of the spark plug wires, I'd assume the truck would run rough, but wouldn't throw this error. This wire checked out when I checked it, but it's another possibility. The spark plug and distributor wires are aftermarket. I replaced them a year ago, but Duralast could have failed in some other way for sure.

Again, it has to do with humidity. It drizzled the other day but humidity was low (if that makes sense) going by weather.com, and it ran. As soon as humidity goes up, around 75% it rears it's ugly head. I pulled the wire from my 22rte to prove that it's not that. I can check the continuity of the IGF wire. I also plan to try to jump that out and run another wire directly from the igniter to the ECM. The weather site says it should be prime time for failure tonight at about 9pm here in Boston. And then again Friday. So I'll have a couple shots to nail this down again before leaving on Sat for Utah. Thanks for giving me a few other things to think about.

Is there any way to check the actual signal at the ecm for the IGF signal? I assume since the signal is going to be super fast a multimeter won't work. I'd need something like an oscilliscope. As a second thought, since I don't have one or plan on purchasing one, would I be able to use a noid light some how? In testing the injectors, (as i understand) you have to use a noid light for the same reason. Is there anyway to test if the the IGF signal is being fired from the igniter or if it's being received from by the ECM? If it's not fired, it'd tell me the igniter is either measuring something incorrectly, or there is a problem after it sends the the current to the coil. If it is sending the IGF signal, and it isn't received by the ECM then it's definitely the wire. If it is received by the ECM....then the three ECM's I've bought all have the same issue. I can't believe this is the case.

So yeah, is there anyway to test for that IGF signal? I've searched online and through the FSM and don't see anything.

Thanks.

asas9800

what i would do is try to replicate the issue if you can get it running again. the only way to cause the motor to completely die in an instant in this truck is to pull the EFI relay. so my money would be on a corroded coil in the efi relay itself. go down to an electronics store and pick up a SPDT relay to swap it with and test with that. jmo

skypilot

iTrader: (1)

Again, it has to do with humidity. It drizzled the other day but humidity was low (if that makes sense) going by weather.com, and it ran. As soon as humidity goes up, around 75% it rears it's ugly head. I pulled the wire from my 22rte to prove that it's not that. I can check the continuity of the IGF wire. I also plan to try to jump that out and run another wire directly from the igniter to the ECM. The weather site says it should be prime time for failure tonight at about 9pm here in Boston. And then again Friday. So I'll have a couple shots to nail this down again before leaving on Sat for Utah. Thanks for giving me a few other things to think about.

That right there is a classic coil failure. do not ask why, no one knows; It just IS. Very rare, I have only seen it a handful of times in 40yrs of car crafting.

Unless I missed it you never swapped the coil itself. I even bet the terminals are on top & not lower so the oil inside covers them. Maybe, however slight is the bottom of the coil case rusted and leaking oil?

FirstGenRunner

I did swap the igniter and ignition coil at the same time. Multiple combinations producing the same result. I did listen to your advice and tried to replace that as well.

When I'm saying igniter...I'm talking the actual igniter pack and coil combo since the igniter is bolted onto the coil and together are bolted onto the wheel well.

FirstGenRunner

Everything I have read prior and after your post led me to believe the same thing. So it was warm and dry here yesterday, so I tested this out just to confirm this since the car was running. I was trying to perform a positive test. I figured that if I pulled the wire that sends the IGF signal I should immediately receive an error code 14 and the car should crap out.

I had taken one of the igniters and pulled apart the plug. Really I just pulled the white wire (IGF on the igniter side) out of the plug. This matches up to the Black wire with White stripe (B W) as identified in the FSM. Down at the ECM the IGF wire is Black with White stripe as well. To confirm this is in fact the same wire I tested the (continuity) Ohms on it and watched the meter drop. This let me know the wire is the same. Ok.

I crank the motor over expecting it to die, but it does NOT. Ran for a good ten mins. There is no IGF signal being sent from the igniter at this point.

Could it be that we are thinking about it backwards. The IGF signal will only be sent if there is a Fault code?

It's going to be Foggy/Rainy/Super humid outside today, and I know it won't run when I get back from work. I currently have the igniter with all wires in the plug hooked up. I'll ensure it won't start that way, then install my other igniter/coil with the IGF wire pulled. If it stats and runs this way, it'll confirm this way of thought. I'll then (for piece of mind), jump out the connection with a second wire just to confirm this. When jumped, the motor should die, and the ECM should throw the error. (Should being the key word here.)

That said. IF with the IGF wire pulled I still get error code 14 and the truck dies, it's back to the drawing board, but going through the wiring diagram there's nothing else in this circuit. There error code 14 has to be a wild herring.

The only other test would be to pull the pin at the plug going into the ECM. I guess it's totally feasable that there are two wires IGF and X that are both worn. When wire X sends a voltage, it gets picked up by the IGF wire and the ECM is actually reading a signal intended for something else.

Make sense or am I losing it at this point? Maybe I'm just completely understanding your post?

skypilot

iTrader: (1)

try disconnecting the alternator fully and insulate the leads. The car will run on battery power alone for a little while. My reason is the alternator has coils too and one of them may be shorting out in high humidity.

I remember someone else had a bad alternator lead that caused a 14 code.

FirstGenRunner

Ok, so miserable and wet up here in Boston.....

Car starts and dies as expected. I swap in the second igniter with the IGF wire pulled from the plug. The car starts up and runs super smoothly. I let it run for about ten minutes without any issues.

So basically I confirmed that error code 14 is part of the ignition circuit and that it isn't something else that's randomly throwing the code.

So, I guess I could leave this disconnected and drive, but this doesn't tell me where the error in this circuit is. Going back to the circuit in the wiring diagram, it looks as if to me it looks as if the following list are the major players in the circuit. The items in red have been replaced.

ECM
Igniter
Ignition Coil
high tension wire from coil to dist. cap (aftermarket replace about a year ago)
Distributor Cap
Rotor
Distributor
Spark plug wires (aftermarket replace about a year ago)
Spark Plugs (aftermarket replaced about a year ago)
IGT wire (tests ok)
IGF wire (test ok)
----
A/C Amplifier
Combination Meter
Check Connecter
Wire connecting these three to the igniter

The last four items (in blue) not sure if the igniter measures anything with these that could be causing the error to be raised.

Does anybody know what the combination meter or the check connector are? The check connector seems to do something with the fuel pump. I can assume the fuel pump is ok since I replaced that and the fuel filter at the end of august when this originally popped up.