Trainwreckinseattle

I've done some searching and haven't found anything here on this subject. Here is my experience. What is yours?

I have built, rebuilt, or worked on A LOT of 22R/22RE engines. In all this time this is what I have found.

1: I have seen 2 factory cams with flat or warn cam lobes. Both had only moderate wear, but were way past servicable.

I don't know the exact cause of failure. One the engine had been run with a blown HG for quite some time. The other engine had definatly been overhauled so maybe at a previous time the cam had been damaged and then eventually the 2 lobes went flat while everything else was still in operating condition. Keep in mind both of these engines ran. They had a progressive loud tick, untill the noise was sufficient to warrant needing attention ie. rebuild.

2: I have seen aprox. 8-10 aftermarket cams have catastrophic cam lobe failure. Characterized by sudden complete failure of one or more lobes.

In talking with people who had these engines, this happens aprox. 8-10K miles after the install of the cam. Most of the time these cams are installed with a new head. ITM, EPWI etc. sell fully loaded heads, and these sources seem to be where most of these cams come from.

I source my cams through a company called Delta Camshaft in Tacoma Wa. They ONLY sell reworked FACTORY 22R/22RE cams. They have told me they have seen quite a large percentage of aftermarket cams go flat as well. (to a mod I'm not sure of the rules here. IF I can't say there name please notify me, and I will edit this. Thanks)

I passed all this information onto the owner of a local machine shop I use. About 8 months ago they started selling EPWI fully loaded heads. They ended up selling a lot of these heads with the aftermarket cam untill they verified my information with Delta Camshaft.

Yesterday I went in to the machine shop and the owner told me they had 2 cam failures back from not so happy customers. The EPWI rep had come out, told the owner "he had never seen or heard of this problem". The rep then took the cams and said he would be in touch about getting them warranted. So now he REALLY believes me and is worried about the other cams that were sold.

Long story short. I wish I had one of the failed cams to have them rockwell tested. I am going to take one of the new ones he has and have it tested though.

On a side note. These heads also have their casting incorrectly done for the fuel pump. The head has to be ground away so the pump arm fits through properly. There is also a small amount of massaging needed on a ridge that is right under the cam gear bolt.

I'm sad to say when people only see "cheep", only cheep is what we get.

Anyone else have some flat cam issues?

xxxtreme22r

my first question would be have any of these cams been actually properly broken in if so how? and were new rockers installed when installing new cams?

Trainwreckinseattle

Good questions.

1: cam break in procedure
It is my understanding that there is more or less none for the 22R/22RE other than using a moly lube on the lobes. I doubt that moly is all that critical for two reasons. These engines use a very low spring pressure, and the cam actually sits in an oil bath and has oil directly squirted at it by a small hole in the rocker arm therefore they are well oiled cams. OHV engines like a chev. 350 on the other hand are totally different and have to have special procedures due to the design.

2: Rocker arms. This is much more likely of a cause. I personally don't see a bunch of bad rocker faces. Also every machine shop I have seen use used rocker arms with new cams all the time. Possibly a Factory cam can withstand this but a aftermarket cam can't? I'm not sure.

I personally tear down and check all the specs on rocker arm assemblies I use. There are many times I simply clean up an assembly possibly change a couple tips and re-assemble them. Knock on wood. I've never had an issue with Factory cam cores.


I have one experience with one cam going flat that I do know the rocker arm assembly was in mint shape. A person I knew wanted a larger cam. His engine ran perfectly. So he took it appart I checked all these parts and he reassembled it using an aftermarket RV cam along with a new HG, rod and main bearings, and new seals. We never took the pistons out of the bore. I did the valve adjustment. About 10k later 3 lobes went flat. After that happened is when I talked to Delta cam. I ordered an RV cam from them that was a Factory cam recut to the RV profile. I replaced the damaged rocker arms with great conditon factory used ones and reassembled the engine. It's still driving around great today. 50K+ miles. Go figure.

Most of my experiences are with core motors that I get back from customers. So there is no way of knowing the condition of the rocker arms before the cam went flat. Obviously the rocker arms are damaged when a cam goes flat, so without first hand knowledge there is no way to know.

I cant wait to get one of these EPWI cams Rockwell tested.

xxxtreme22r

to my knowledge the way to break in a cam on these motors is to load the cam lobes up with grease as apon starting there is a short period where the rocker shafts will not have oil on them. next is to rev the motor to about 3,000 RPM ensuring proper oil splash at the cam, pretty much hold it there but vary rpm never allowing it to drop below 2500 RPM, and do this for about 20-30 minutes.

4x4wire's procedure was a little different: "To break-in a new camshaft, run the engine at 1800-2400 RPM for three sets of 15 minutes, making sure to adjust the timing during the first run. Try to vary the idle a little throughout the break-in process. After each run, let the engine cool down before starting the next set. After the first run, remove the valve cover and check the valves, as they will likely need to be readjusted when the engine is warm. If a loud tapping is present during the break-in, one of the valves may be too loose and will need to be tightened. Also re-torque the head bolts since most of them will change when heated up. Once the camshaft is properly broken in, you are ready to start enjoying your new engines new found power! "

I also forgot to mention valve springs. Valve springs get weak over time and have a tendency to "float" which I am sure is also undo stress on the cam lobes. As well as worn adjusters.

Also as far as oiling goes, there is upgraded rocker shafts for the 22r(e)'s that have additional holes to provide more oiling to the cam. So I am sure, that oiling has been a problem in the past.

toyotaperformance.com, Toyheadauto and LCE and I believe TRD as well recommends using new rockers with their cams. Not sure on ENGNBLDR though.

Straight from the LCE website: "When installing a LC Engineering camshaft, we suggest replacing the rocker arms to prevent premature cam failure. Rocker arms are available separately or in complete assemblies including rockers, adjusters, nuts, shafts and stands."

Straight from the toyhead auto site: "Note: I highly recommend new rocker arms (cam followers) be install with all new cams to prevent premature wear and get the best life out of your cam."

Straight from the toyotaperformance.com site: "NOTE: When purchasing a new camshaft, you should always consider replacing the valve springs and more importantly, the rocker arms. 99% of all camshaft problems are caused from mismatched valve springs and related components."

another good tidbit from toyotaperformance.com. http://toyotaperformance.com/cam_fail.htm

The key parts of any camshaft are the lobes. As the camshaft spins, the lobes open and close the intake and exhaust valves in time with the motion of the piston. It turns out there is a direct relationship between the shape of the cam lobes and the way the engine performs in different speed ranges.

It is highly recommended that you change the rocker arms with every cam change and keep them together as a package or kit. The reason is, rocker arms burnish themselves to each cam lobe. As we know, each cam is ground on a different angle and each rocker arm wears at a different angle. If you use rocker arms from one camshaft to another, they will most likely trough into the new cam lobes.

Here are the four most common causes of premature camshaft failure:


1. Improper break in procedure. Excessive or long cranking on initial start up. Engine must start immediately and run at 1600-1800 rpm?s for 20-30 minutes
2. Improper rocker geometry, changed by: increased camshaft lobe lift, valve tip height and rocker stand height.
3. Improper valve springs. Inadequate clearance between coils (coil bind), spring pressure too high or spring pressure too light.
4. Reground camshafts with reduced base circle diameters will cause premature
lobe and rocker wear.

Trainwreckinseattle

Most of what you wrote seems to be cut and paste right out of a 1972 OHV book. And I do get you. All things equal and all pocket books empty I'd replace everything everywhere whenever I touch it.

Only problem with all that is out of tons of motors I've never had a problem with Factory cams and re-used good condition rocker arms. I know of no large engine rebuilder that replaces good condition rocker arm assemblies either, nor do most specify any special break in procedures for their rebuilt 22R/22RE's. It would be interesting to know if Engnbldr puts new rocker arms on all 22r engines sold?


Valve springs: I've tested a billion factory 22r springs. Every one of them were within tolerance. I've never seen a broken one either. I believe this is due to the super low spring pressure of this engine combined with high quality factory parts.

Upgraded rocker shafts: These as far as I can tell are only in aftermarket shafts. This is also only for oiling the shaft to the rocker arm. The cam spray hole is still the same size and position. So I don't see any way that helps with oiling the cam. keep in mind the cam also splashes directly through oil while it turns.

List of vendors: Everyone selling parts of course would love for you to replace any related part with another new part purchase so there is a tad bit of conflict of interest there. The question at that point is: is it absolutely necessary? Is a new Chinese part better than a good condition proven high quality Japanese part?

If you notice they all say "Suggest" I would assume tons of people don't replace the rocker arms, and all of them don't fail. Again assuming that their rocker arms are in good shape to begin with just used.


May I ask do you work in the cam industry?

xxxtreme22r

no, just did alot of research before I rebuilt my motor. I also reused my OEM rocker arms (which are the best available for the 22r) All I did was use a little emery cloth to polish them up a bit. I am using the ENGNBLDR 268 cam with their fully assembled street head.

I can see how that one with the RV cam had problems though as it might have been a little too much for the OEM springs to handle? not sure. Not too many reports on here of flat cam lobes either.

I too don't know too many rebuilders that actually do a breakin on their motors either. But everything on here pretty much pointed to doing one.

Your right on the "upgraded" rocker shafts. Which I did not opt to do either.

How many of these rebuilders prime their pumps with grease/vasoline on rebuild? That I am sure also has something to do with intial start and how much a cam can be wore very early as well.

I am sure one of these not being done will not harm the cams, but a non-primed pump, non break in process, old springs/rockers is probably not a good combo.

Trainwreckinseattle

The two cam profiles were identical. The only difference was one was an aftermarket cam and one was a reground factory cam. So who knows. I can't make too many assumption knowing the details of one failure.

I would hope every 22r assembled has the oil pump primed somehow. I fill it with Hyperlube. I also pour a quart of oil over the valves, and fill the oil filter before initial start up. Oil pressure is achieved almost instantly this way.

TinMan

This is very interesting for sure. I just picked up a older pickup with recent rebuild, LCE pro torquer cam, adjustable timing gear, over sized stainless valves, and dual heavy springs. Thing runs down the road like a raped ape. But the valves are noisy. I adjusted them yesterday, they all were a little tight. All the cam lobes visually looked good. Smooth wear on all, and no defined flat spots. I am thinking the heavy dual valve springs are just closing the valves hard enough to tick nice and loud. But I will definitely be watching this thread.

Trainwreck, thanks for detailed technical threads.

Trainwreckinseattle

Thank you tin man. I try to cut through a lot of hearsay and supposition I see all over the place.

And to claify things a little more. I talked with the owner of the shop and I was mistaken. I thought they had sold the heads out the door that ended up having cam lobe problems.

Turns out he had rebuilt them and sold them as long blocks. This changes things a lot because he goes through the rocker arm assemblies and makes sure they are in good condition or replaces them with new arms. He also uses moly lube durring assembly. So thats three cams that I know the history and condition of the rocker arms but still failed for some reason.

????

By the way ALTROM Group is one of the main suppliers of all 22r/22re rocker arms sold. Altrom was a Canadian company who imported mostly Japanese OEM products. They were bought into by Napa a coupe years ago and now are wholy owned by napa.

I can purchase new complete rocker arms with tips for 3.49 each. Shafts are something like 22 each. Any Napa can order them for people but usually charge a little more.

Trainwreckinseattle

Oh and as to your question Tin man. Just as a hunch I would check the rocker arm adjusting screws. Many times they are warn. They get pits or wear uneven. They uscrew easy enough as well so it's an easy thing to see about.

I have heard a few times from the crew at my local Toyota dealership how quiet and nice my engines run. I use Toyota to diagnose hard to figure out runability problems.

TinMan

I should have taken them out and checked when I adjusted them. I did not even think about it. With such little miles and it looked so good under the valve cover. I will next time I am in there. I took the header off last night, cleaned it all and put new gaskets in. Torqued evenly and to spec. It is much more quiet now. There is still a leak at the cat, that could be reverberating back up. The exhaust needs to be replaced so I will fix that when I do the exhaust. I have had good luck with the universal high flow cats from Summit, that along with a china knock off flow master sold around here, makes for a cheap decent exhaust.

Anyway back on the subject. Before buying it I did a bit of research, and it seems a lot of people that have this cam have posts around the net about how noisy it is. A few have speculated that because of the profile it actually ramps the rocker off the cam which leaves the rocker suspended for a split second. Then "taps" back down onto the cam. I will say that I have not driven one of these little 22re's that has this much power. And it runs really smooth, just a bit noisy. LCE engineering web site states that heavy or dual springs are not needed with this cam. It has Dual springs in it. So that could also be part of the cause for the tap, as this was built with heavy dual springs. Verified by receipts, and visual.

I have a block mocked up on the stand, hope to be putting it in the next few weeks. I will come to you for some of those rockers. That is the best price I have herd of. I was going to reuse the old ones, but at that price there is no reason to. The old ones were checked by the machinist, he said they were good to go, but why not have the added insurance. I want to do this right once, and get another 200K out of it. I am using one of Teds new castings with stock valves and 268 cam. I will let you know how it works out.

On the moly lube. I put it on the cam lobes when I received it. It is humid here and I did not want any rust. I noticed yesterday that it seems kind of gummy, and stiff. Not smooth and fluid like when I put the lower end together and put it on the cam lobes. Does that go bad after a while? Do I need to wipe it off before start up and put new on, or will poring some oil over it before start up be good. I am a little worried that it has started to gum up in the rod and main bearings also.

Well enough rambling. it is time to make the doughnuts.

Trainwreckinseattle

You make doughnuts? Thats strange I happen to love doughnuts. LOL


Anyways some types of lube will get gummy when left out for a while. It's normal. Id maybe smear a little bit of new stuff when you assemble it.

All in all I really prefer OEM.

If I were assembling my own engine I would stick with a nice condition factory rocker arm assembly. More and more I don't trust aftermarket anything as far as I can throw it. But like I said in my post last night. Anyone can order those ALTROM rockers with adjuster screws from any NAPA autoparts.

On a side note. I just came back from toyota. My cost on oem parts.

rocker...PN 13801-35010.... 29.06 each
adjuster screw...PN 90913-05019.... 3.58 each
shaft...PN 13911-35010....67.34
shaft...PN 13912-35010....67.34

Thats just shy of 400.00 for OEM from Toyota parts to replace all wear items on a rocker arm assembly. Yikes

Trainwreckinseattle

Nobody else has any experience with flat cams?

xxxtreme22r

400 is not bad but what about the caps (probably not needed) and the springs.

I've seen aftermarket full assemblies go for about $200 but we are talking Chinese parts as well.

Ask Tod at ENGNBLDR about aftermarket adjuster screws. He told me a pretty good horror story about a bench test he had done with the sets he used to carry. Now he only sells oem toyota ones.

TinMan

Na man I dont make doughnuts. I was just quoting an old commercial.

Thanks for the advice on the lube.

I hear you on the after market parts. Just sometimes cost drives you to them. I try to go with time tested companies. Even then I try to do some research into were they are getting them.

Were do you get your reground toyo cams at. That is an option that I have not seem yet.

I think there are more members out there with flat lobes for one reason or another.

Later

Trainwreckinseattle

Yeah only the parts I listed are at all wear parts or critical. 400 is my cost. I get 30 percent off and no tax.

I can put together an aftermarket rocker arm set for about 150.00 dollars. by ordering the stuff from Altrom through Napa.


I bet a quarter he was getting his rocker arms and adjuster screws through Altrom, almost everyone does, or if it was through ITM, or EPWI that's where they get them from. It's interesting how much box, and rebox is going on, it's hard to tell sometimes what way is up anymore. I'd like to know about that test, because I know a lot of people who use those aftermarket tips. I'm glad I get enough factory used ones in good condition that I can keep mine all factory. But I've sure thought about using those aftermarket ones.

I ordered up an EGR valve a little while ago from Schucks, now Oreillys... anyways it was in a BWI box. (borg-warner) and sure as heck it was a factory Toyota EGR valve, with Toyota stickers and everything. It was 30 cheeper than my account at Toyota and was in stock. I was amazed. So you just never know anymore who gets what and where it comes from.

yotafreakshow

I'm just about to install a new loaded ITM head with cam on my in progress rebuild...now I'm nervous about that cam. They do have a tag on the cam that specifically requires use of a moly oil additive during the break in processes, if not warranty is void. I'm sticking with my stock rocker assy. as it is in great shape. I guess I will find some moly grease and load the lobes up too, then cross my fingers. I fear the above cam break in processes of upon initial startup to run the engine @xxxx rpm for xx minutes or whatever because of the rings possibly not seating without a proper accelerate, decelerate, repeat process during this critical time period. Then again, maybe the rings will seat fine anyways. I've been following your ring thread too, trainwreck.

mt_goat

That's the first thing I thought of, the cheap cams are maybe too soft.

BTW running a good heavy duty engine oil (HDEO) should help. or use a ZDDP additive but I prefer to leave the oil blending to the pros.

More info on that: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ech/index.html

I'll quote here in case the link goes bad:

xxxtreme22r

yeah when i talked to ENGNBLDR he recommended that I either use a zinc additive to the oil or use valvoline dino. which has a higher zinc content in their oil than any other oil on the market. and never ever use synthetic for at least the first 5000 or 8000 (I forget) miles on the motor.

yotafreakshow

zinc was what i meant too