Inkstaind

I picked up a 1988 Toyota pickup, standard cab, long bed, 5 speed manuel.

I've been driving it about a month and I'm now experiencing shifting problems. I can get into all the gears while driving except reverse, it grinds. Now it's also getting harder to get into 1-5, very slight clunk, peddle to the floor basically. I changed tranny fluid, bled the clutch but no change.

A friend told me I need a new transmission. Does this sound so, or could it be something else? If it is the trans, how hard is a DIY rebuild?

Any ideas?

Thanks guys for the help

RJR

Sounds more like your clutch isn't fully disengaging. Check for a cracked/broken clutch pedal bracket under the dash. Search on this forum for "clutch bracket fatigue". It's a common problem.

Odin

Yup, most likely not the transmission. Try the above, it seems like it's only a matter of time before it happens. Bleed the system. If that still does nothing check the clutch pedal movement specifications and adjust it. These are just the easy ones to check.

Inkstaind

Thanks.

I did bleed the clutch and checked the adjustment on the clutch pedal/bracket and it seems to be adjusted all the way out already.

Inkstaind

Thanks for the help, I will get under there and take a look when I get a minute and let you know what I see.

I'm hoping it's something a little easier then swapping out the tranny, lol.

Thanks again,

Inkstaind

Well, I took a look at the clutch bracket, which looks good but the cylinder there was definitely leaking. So thanks for the direction, that for sure led me to an obvious problem. I also noticed the slave cylinder was leaking as well.

I replaced both master and slave cylinder but now I'm having a problem bleeding the line. There appears to be some air trapped.

I've been trying to figure out how to reverse bleed this out the master (or at least that is what's described to do online), but I'm not seeing anything that shows how to do it with the type of reservoir I have.

Can someone take a look at this image I've attached and let me if there's a way I can reverse bleed this?

Thanks again guys for the help, much appreciated,

RJR

Not sure what you've seen on line, but the reverse bleeding we used to do for single engine airplane brakes, which should work for the clutch, is as follows:
- Get a large, pump operated oil can. Make sure it's squeaky clean and fill it with brake fluid.
- Find a length of clean hose that will fit tightly over the output nozze of the oil can, and also fit tightly over the bleeder valve. Clear hose makes it easier to see what you're doing.
- Attach the hose to the oil can and pump until a clean stream of fluid comes out free of air bubbles.
- Now attach the open end of the hose to the slave bleeder valve.
- Take the top off the master reservoir and use a syringe or turkey baster to empty most of the fluid out of it. You're going to be filling it from the bottom.
- Crack open the bleed valve, and pump until you see no bubbles coming up into the reservoir (takes two people). You might overflow the reservoir, so make some provision for catching the mess.
- Close the bleed valve, top off the reservoir, and you should be done.
- Make sure you don't run the oil can dry, or you'll have to start over.

When done right, it's an almost sure-fire way to bleed the system with no remaining air bubbles. It relies on the fact that the trapped air would rather go up than down through the system. Any air bubbles get pushed through the slave cylinder, up the tubing, through the master cylinder, and out into the reservoir where they no longer matter.

Inkstaind

Thanks Ron, I'll give er' a go.

What I saw online was a guy disconnecting one of two lines coming off the master reservoir (they were side by side, but now I'm questioning my memory on what I actually saw, lol). He screwed, I believe, a 10mm bolt into it with plumbers tape on the end. This appeared to seal it so that when he pumped the clutch it forced the air bubbles out the reservoir. Made sense I guess, but my reservoir only has one line coming out of it.

Inkstaind

I finally got around to working on this issue again. I had a guy offer to throw in a new master and slave cylinder since both appeared to be leaking. He's the one that left informing me that there was air trapped in the line and that we needed to reverse bleed it. I haven't spoken to him since. So I went today to see if I could finish this up, but what I didn't expect was there to be really no resistance at all hardly in the clutch. It just goes right to the floor, feels like little to no pressure at all. My first thought was there had to be a line disconnected or the bleeder left open by him, but all looks ok and I traced everything inbetween.

Does this sound like air in the line? Should I go ahead with the reverse bleeding technique?

I'm just confused, I didn't expect there to be so little pressure in the clutch. Something just doesn't seem right, but then I'm not a mechanic either.

Thanks guys for any advice,

Inkstaind

I've been reading a lot about having someone watch and re-fill the reservoir while another person pumps the clutch as I loosen the bleed on the slave.

We did this quite a bit and a lot of bubbles came out with some black puffs of fluid once and a while. The pressure seemed to be building up some and has maintained a little more than previously, but still not enough to allow the gears to shift.

Any ideas, am I on the right track here, do we just keep doing it?

It just seems as much as we've done that technique all the fluid would have circulated by now pushing out any and all bubbles. That doesn't seem to be the case though.

Also, the slave cylinder rod is not traveling but maybe 1/2 inch. Would this eliminate the possibility of it being internal issues like the clutch fork?

I also just adjusted the rod on the master and clutch pedal which gave us more travel/pressure than previously but then we bled it again and lost it. Back to no travel or only a half inch. When I adjusted the rod it gave us about 3/4 inch travel on the slave but still not enough to be able to shift gears still.

I'm getting lost here, lol. HELP!!

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

Just what brand parts did you get some can be complete Junk from new.

If they were used they might be worn so hard they will never work.


Bleeder valve sucking in air

If the person went cheap that could be the problem.

Then part of the problem could be your rubber hose blowing up like a balloon under pressure lots of people never think to change them.

If they don`t leak why bother is the theory of some.

I always change the hose and don`t have any problems bleeding clutch hydraulics

MAINETOY

iTrader: (2)

PLEASE STAY AWAY FROM PARTS STORE CLUTCH HYDRAULICS!!!! I have had nothing but bad luck with either clutch master cylinders or clutch slave cylinders.Put those parts on(Advance Auto Parts) and could not bleed the air out.Got a clutch master from Carquest and bled the system in 5 minutes!If i could of waited i would of used Aisin parts for the clutch master and slave.Also a good idea to replace the rubber hose as it is approaching 30 years old.Good luck with it and i'm sure many others have experienced this.

Inkstaind

[QUOTE=wyoming9;52243879]Just what brand parts did you get some can be complete Junk from new.

If they were used they might be worn so hard they will never work.




Thanks Wyoming and Mainetoy for the help. I had my fingers crossed someone would jump in here.

If any I think the master the guy put in might be junk. It just seems sloppy, a lot of play and movement.

I will replace the hose next and get another master. So you think from Carquest is ok?

Also, because of the lack of travel in the slave would that eliminate the clutch fork as being the issue?

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

Lets hope so on the clutch fork.

I would use Aisin hydraulic parts if possible .

I might almost think about the Toyota Dealer I know they are expensive but peace of mind most times is not cheap.

Inkstaind

Any idea on how far the slave cylinder rod should travel?

I got mine, by doing what I described, to 3/4 inch (basically) but still not enough to enable shifting. Then we bled it traditionally(pump, hold, bleed) one more time and lost that distance, back to 1/2 inch. Which I don't understand either. You tighten the bleeder before the clutch is released right?

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

It is possible the bleeder is bad allowing air to be drawn in .

Your connection at either the Master or slave is not sealing like it should allowing air to be drawn in.

All it takes is a spec of dirt /grit whatever to keep it from sealing

It will not leak fluid but can draw in air.

I will have to pull a slave cylinder apart to see just how much travel is possible.

It is possible you may have the wrong one.

Odin

Using an oil can like that is a fantastic idea! I do the same method of reverse bleeding the brakes on my motorcycle using a 60cc catheter tip syringe and it works awesome.



There is a kit for doing this on ebay but it's nothing special they just add a piece of tubbing. I like the idea of a clear pump oiler so you can see how low the fluid is but at the same time I'd consider the oiler below to be a one time use item because it's all plastic where as with a GOOD OLD METAL pump oiler you can reuse it many times.

The same clear pump oiler below may be available for cheap at Harbor Freight, but remember with these cheap plastic things, ya get what ya pay for...

5oz One Man Brake & Clutch Bleeder ebay... Some of the sellers for these kits are= wayneswings, 1manbrakebleeders, 2014_amb_sales
http://www.ebay.com/itm/One-Man-Brake-Clutch-Bleeder-for-Aircraft-Cars-Trucks-Motorcycles-ATVs-/281543073168?hash=item418d465d90&item=281543073168&pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&vxp=mtr
5oz Hong Kong specials for cheaper.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/250ML-Transparent-High-Pressure-Pump-Oiler-Lubrication-Oil-Can-Plastic-/221605082150?pt=US_Hand_Tools&hash=item3398b13426
Now for a good metal pump oiler it's hard to beat old school but it's still 5oz, you'll need to find an end for it though. To get the clear tubing to slide over the end you can place the plastic tubing in boiling water for several minutes, slip on some gloves then push it on. Make it quick because the plastic will harden up quickly.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-NOS-Eagle-Metal-Pump-Oiler-Oil-Tin-Squirt-Can-Tool-/251403804960?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a88d5a120

If you want higher capacity because you're worried about running out of fluid or might do the brakes this might work but it's not going to be the same quality like that old one above

Odin

Inkstained, if I was in your shoes I'd return those parts and get my money back.
Frankly I'd be so frustrated by now that I'd 100% for sure purchase Aisin parts, the only question would be do I need it right now or could I afford to let the truck sit for another week or two to save some money.

If you can wait a week or two order the Aisin parts from a place like Yotamasters, LC Engineering, or Marlincrawler.

If you can't wait and have extra money hit up the dealership where they'll give you Aisin parts.

If you don't have the extra time or money hit up CarQuest or NAPA.
For the most part it's true that CarQuest and NAPA carry the same parts in a different box as "SOME" of the other auto parts places but they've generally got the higher quality replacement parts that are available. Like most parts places they should have a low cost alternative and a "Premium" replacement part. Purchase their premium line to get their top quality stuff. Yes it will be more expensive than Autozone, O'Reilly, PepBoys, Baxters ect, but it still shouldn't cost as much as the dealer.

For me the bottom line is this:
While it seems like these trucks have a reputation for running forever and being highly dependable it requires OEM parts in specific areas to achieve it. The whole clutch system seems to be one of those areas.
Another one of those areas appears to be the engine sensors. Knock sensor, temperature sensor, TPS, etc...Denso/OEM only for me

Inkstaind

So I pulled the master that was purchased from O'reilly's out and slapped one in from Carquest. I would have liked to get the better one from online but for $25 I figured I'd try this one first and just get er' going. IT WORKED!! LOL

It's hard to believe a brand new part from O'reilly's can really be that crappy but apparently so.

Once I put the new one in I bled it from the slave and everything was fine. Just opened the bleeder, pressed the clutch a few times with a hose running off of it to a bottle of brake fluid. When the bubbles stopped I closed the bleeder and that was it, done deal.

For the record, I was getting about 3/4 inch of throw from the slave with the O'reilly slave, 1 1/2 - 2" with the new one from Carquest.

Odin

Bout damn time lol