av3fire

Hi searched for related topics and found i now have more questions then when i started....... i will narrow it down to 1 or 2

I have an 88' 22re 4x4 with a 5 spd manual..... new to me (only had 2 weeks)
everything seemed real strong when i first got it. i "tested" the clutch by upshifting form 2nd to 4th to see if it slipped, didnt, just pulled right through until i got up to speed.... this made me think the clutch was still strong.

now for the question,...... it has gotten cold here (has not made it above 32 for 2 days, with nightimes in the 0-5 range. yesterday and today when accelerating in 3rd gear the tach ran up and the engine sounded like the clutch was slipping (i know this sound, as in my teens i drove a VW bug for 6 months with pretty much no clutch) Can the cold weather have an effect on the clutch? i have read about the TPS and the clutch master clynder possibly haveing air in the line..... i know nothing of what the PO did or didnt do, so i dont know where to start.......

thanx for your help

Trevor

Flash319

You probably have oil on the clutch from the main seal (trans) leaking a bit. The cold may make it slip more because the oil will stick to the plate better then when it is warm. You will be needing a new fiber plate......

thook

Oh? How does oil get passed the flywheel?

83

If it's the rear main seal it will go right past the flywheel through the pilot bearing hole. But it looks like flash was meaning the transmission ("trans")? Never heard of that happening but I don't see why it couldn't.

The only thing I can think of other than an oil leak soaking your clutch is that you've maybe got some air in your hydraulic system, like you mentioned, and your clutch isn't engaging completely. Before pulling the transmission I would definitely try bleeding the clutch fluid, and testing the master & slave cylinders. I had all kinds of really wierd stuff going on with my clutch in really cold weather and it's looking like it turned out to be my master cylinder.

PDX_1ton

22r and 22re are famous for having the master clutch cylinder go out. (I'm on my 3rd ) Check the master cylinder reservoir (sp) to see if you are low on fluid. If so, it is a good bet that is your problem. Check the inside of your truck where the clutch shaft comes through the firewall. If you see oily streaks... Yeah!!!! you found the problem. Super easy to fix. Just remember to use a line wrench on the hydralic lines.

83

I didn't really notice any leak in my master cylinder, for what it's worth.

thook

Sorry.........I still don't see how any appreciable amount of oil, or any at all, can get past the flywheel......even through the hole for the pilot bearing. There's just not that much clearance between the flange/tail end of the crankshaft and flywheel. And, the flywheel is on very tight.

Aside from that, I've always had the rear main seal leak on my 4rnr since I've had it......even after I rebuilt the motor. (Don't ask me why it leaks even after that). But, never once has it affected the clutch. In fact, when I replaced the clutch the year before I rebuilt my motor, there was no oil on the clutch.

As far as it being from the transmission input shaft seal (if that's what is meant), it seems unlikely to me. I could be wrong on that, but I doubt it.

It is possible the clutch friction plate was marginal to begin with. What with it being cold, the fiber plate being colder making the surface area harder, it's now beginning to really show it's wear. Or, it could actually just be the timing of events.

thook

If you were having TPS issues, it would typically show up in other ways, as well. Like a poor idle or sluggish acceleration, poor mileage, etc. With the clutch slipping, when you accelerate, it feels suddenly as if you were in neutral, the engine revs, you lose momentum momentarily, and no throttle action will change it until the friction plate grabs again.

abecedarian

thook... Flash 319 said: meaning the input shaft seal on the transmission, not the rear main seal on the engine. Although I'm not sure that's the problem, it seems plausible.

One thing that it may be is the fluid in the clutch system itself. Since it's brake fluid, and brake fluid attracts and absorbs moisture, perhaps the fluid it partially freezing, or slushing up, from the combination of moisture and low-temps and it is just taking an abnormally long time for the slave cylinder to push the fluid back up to the master? Ya know, like how it's hard to suck a milkshake through a straw...? And speaking of straws... yeah, I'm pulling on them here with that theory.

thook

Yeah, I realized that's what Flash said (missed the "trans" part)when 83 pointed it out. But, at first....in missing that little detail, I'd made associations with posts I've read before about the rear engine seal possibly contaminating the clutch <<<completely illogical. So, that was my first response. Then, 83 said "through the pilot hole". I just had to disagree and explain why. And, then go on to comment on the input shaft seal. It just seems unlikely to me gear oil would be able to traverse the space between within the bellhousing and make it past the clutch cover. I suppose if the leak was bad enough that gear oil was slung around on the spinning input shaft and happen to fling into and between the springs, but man.....the chances of that???? Not to mention, if one had their wits about them would have to notice the puddle left behind. Keyword being "if", I suppose.

Interesting theory, though, Abe. I myself just think the clutch is worn. Anytime I've ever had one go out, it started gradually and intermittently. Testing it once or twice when the vehicle was obtained, and then seeing some problems two weeks later isn't unusual. And, like with ceramic clutches that don't work as well until they've seen some heat, the fiber plate is not immune to changes in it's nature due to temperatures. I mean, I've never had a GOOD clutch seem affected by cold, but a marginal one??? I can see that. Then again, like I side, it could just be timing.

Someone needs to contact Marlin, by Jove.

Flash319

Sorry for the confusion, I meant the input shaft seal (main shaft seal). Have had it happen. The oil will get on the fiber disk and then you will not have any friction. It gets worse as the oil bakes its way into the fiber.

This very same thing happened to me 3 years ago. Once it was warmed up it went away until I stared loading it up in 4th gear then it would slip.

thook

Well, the confusion was on my part, Flash. Just missed a detail.

Anyway, weird. Was it a significant leak? And, how in the heck does that happen? I mean, that oil can get past the diaphragm springs? I realize there's the space between the tangs, but had it slung all around the bellhousing, too?

abecedarian

Got another bout of cerebral flatulence....
What does an engine with a slipping clutch sound like... any different than an engine revving up?
I wonder if it was just the fan clutch locking up?
Maybe the left foot was still riding the clutch pedal a little?
Does it do it in 4th and 5th too when cold?

Flash319

It was not a big leak but over time it baked its way onto the disk. When I pilled the disk it was shiny like black paint, tons of fiber left though. I don't think it takes very much oil to destroy the clutch. I could clearly see the leak once the trans was out, and the bottom of the bell housing was wet when it was in the truck. (always wet from the engine oil though....) But you can tell from the smell that some of the oil was 80/90.

Like I said it was worst when it was cold outside, until I go sick of trying to get up gasoline ally hill and it slipping all the time. So I yanked it and changed the clutch. OEM Toyota all the way......

thook

Well, enough said then. Thanks.

Happy Hollerdays!

av3fire

thanx for all the great advice.......
left foot was on the floor, so it was definatley something slipping......
happens in 3rd and 4th (havent even had it into 5th yet)
i think i need to check / change the fluid first.... that seems like the cheepest place to start, before ripping out the tranny... like i said, i know and trust NOTHING of the PO.

any advise on changing the clutch fluid?
it seem likely that this could have water in it, or even be the wrong type of fluid....... we are talking about a truck that was 1 small step from the scrapheap, being worked on by a guy that was not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

thanx again.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS ALL

trevor

apalmer1

it is very true that oil leaking from the transmission or the engine rear main can get onto the clutch disk and cause slippage BUT its very unlikely that the cold is causing the trans or motor front or rear mains to leak oil because when its colder oil becomes thicker and less viscus thus making it leak past seals LESS. more likely you are either getting water or snow in the bellhousing through one of the inspection ports, and its freezing on your clutch, or the clutch was already almost done to begin with and now that its cold the friction lining just cant flex the way it needs to in order to adhere to the flywheel after a shift.

Also whoever said the comment about the master cylinders failing commonly, this is also true, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the clutch slipping. its the spring pressure from the pressure plate that holds the clutch to the flywheel. the only thing the master and slave cylinder do is exert pressure on the fork to disengage the clutch when you hit the pedal.

Unfortunately when it starts slipping there is no quick and easy remedy. weather it is infact a leaking seal, or if the clutch is just dead you will have to drop the tranny to fix this. the only thing you could try is to begin parking the truck inside somewhere out of the snow and look at all the inspection ports on the bellhousing and make sure they are sealed well enough to keep out loads of snow if you have it in that area.

merry christmas everybody

thook

Hehe......<<<biting tongue>>>

Doooohhhh!..........sorry can't hold it.


How's oil from the rear main seal going to get past the flywheel? Have you ever seen this with your two eyes or just read about it?

thook

Oh, and where are these inspection ports you speak of? The only thing I've ever seen on my '86 is the entry for the release fork.<<serious question

Water on the clutch? Doubt it. I've been through so many stinking wet mud holes and ruts this winter during freezing temps......just like every winter. Never had that happen. I think someone would have to submerge their vehicle up that far for anything like that to happen. And, I think it'd be such a problem particularly for everyone like me on YT that sees a lot of said conditions that posting about it would be much more prevalant. And, lord knows someone would come up with a way to prevent it. Some mod, or something. I guess the slight chance is there so it could happen, but I doubt it.

Not sure why I'm being nitpicky about this info, but sometimes what I read around here seems too illogical and so very unlikely that I can't help but say something. Throw whatever you want at me.......I'm wearing my verbage armor.

thook

And, yes.....Merry Christmas.....<<lights a christmas cigar>>