Robw_z

Hi Guys! First post.

So to be honest I'm advising a friend here. He wanted a mid 90's vintage 4Runner, pre-1996. So I believe that's 2nd gen. Anyway, I came across a fine example with only 137k on it on Craigslist. Told him to call about it ASAP, and he'd purchased it before I knew it.

I helped him do the brakes and a few suspension oddities. He recently had a heater hose replaced, and apparently it did not fix the coolant leak he was having. A few days ago I noticed a little puddle of coolant in my driveway after he'd departed my place, I spoke with him soon after and warned him he was leaking coolant. He acted like it was no big deal and his mechanic was about to get it fixed.

So anyway, yesterday I get a mass of text messages amounting to his HG is blown, and in the spirit of "better safe than sorry", he has been advised to get a Reman 3.0 engine installed, to the tune of just over $6,000. I wasn't able to call him until today, and he told me he told them to "go for it". He said the mechanics told him that if you replace the HG, the head may be cracked, a valve may be burned, etc. He said they also told him replacing the HG ups the compression ratio, which stresses the other components and makes them wear out prematurely. This is all technically kinda-sorta true to me, but really?

For me personally, as a long time shade-tree mechanic, this is blowing my mind. IMO 140k is nothing for a Toyota, and spending over $6k to end up with a Reman 3.0 instead of a 3.4 makes my head hurt. I don't even know if I'd trust a Reman over a 140k factory build. Perhaps this is not my business but am I on to something here? My friend's a good guy but I don't want to tell him my opinion unless I am very sure, so I'm just sounding off from you guys. Thanks for any input!

-Rob

Trents3.slow

I'm running two remanufactured 3.0's without a "tune" the computer can compensate within reason for over bore. 6grand?!?!?? Does that come with 3 engines for back up? If done with extreme detail and expensive parts. Rebuilding should cost less than 2,000$(dropping it in yourself) stop this poor guy from getting robbed!

cbr600rx7

Labor to remove, rebuild, and install can be expensive. Just the parts to do a top to bottom rebuild on the motor on a 3VZE with machine work can be $2500 give or take. Figure another 12 hours of labor for pulling it and reinstall so that's another $1000. It's hard to say where they got the $6000 figure from but any thing between $4000-$5000 for a turn key new 3vze installed is not unreasonable.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

$6000 seems high to me. How well was the motor taken care before? Most are neglected from my experience on about any used car. I have seen car lots get a car and the first thing they do is change coolant and oil just so it looks like it has been taken care of. It could of been age that played a small part in the head gasket going. I would think with a motor and installation $4000 would be more reasonable.

cbr600rx7

And a lot is subject to what the are actually doing. For example

Are they flushing the heater core and radiator?
Installing a new clutch kit?
Installing new motor mounts?
Servicing the AC system?
Valve lash adjustment and shims if needed?



and so on. this is only a few things that they may or may not have built into that $6000 estimate and they could also be estimating the cost on the high side as well. I do agree $6000 is high IMOP. However it's not so unreasonable high that I would throw the shop out the window. I can tell you from personal experince that a full top to bottom rebuild with Toyota parts and machine work alone can cost you $2500-$3000. It's just a very expensive motor to rebuild.

Consider this. After the heads are apart and reassembled it's very possible that all the valve shims may need to be replaced. That's $120 just in shims and probably 2.5 hours of labor by the time you assemble them, figure out what the gap is, do the math, double check the gap, do the math one more time, remove the cams, install the new shims, and pray you got it correct the first time. Keep in mind the shims are in 0.0019in = 0.05mm increments and have a very small margin of error.

Robw_z

My concern is not so much related to the cost of the engine replacement, but whether engine replacement is justified at all. Blowing a head gasket at 140k happens all the time to all kinds of cars, and recommending a total engine replacement due to blown head gaskets, especially on a Toyota, seems ridiculous to me. So I was just questioning if the mechanics are smelling that my friend is mechanically naive and has money... both of which are true... and steering him towards an overly safe and assured method of solving his head gasket problems. Next he'll be getting an entirely new braking system due to a bad master cylinder.

-Rob

cbr600rx7

It's also 21 years old. Things like corrosion and gasket degeneration is a very real issue. The probably want to surface the block and that means removing the rotating assembly.

atcfixer

iTrader: (1)

Personally, I'd say the shop is robbing him. Take the heads off and take them to a machine shop and have them inspect the heads for cracks, warp-age etc. If he has money to burn, if the heads check out, have the shop rebuild them and bring them up to new spec. Doing the bottom end would be your friends call, having it checked for wear and getting new rings and a hone job on the cyls wouldn't be a bad idea. I generally go the cheaper route personally and check things the best I can w\o opening up the lower end, and putting it back together with a new head gasket and drive it, but nothing I drive is high dollar value nor do I have money to burn.

Of course, the shop might be completely in the right and there is more damage they've found that we don't know about that makes sense to replace the engine instead of repair.

Robw_z

The shop hasn't cracked the motor, they just did a diagnostic and determined one or both of the head gaskets are blown. I had a friend with an Audi Allroad V6 twin turbo that threw a timing belt... which to me is worse than a head gasket. It had about 125k mikes. They pulled the heads and then determined it needed a new motor. I just feel like this shop jumped to a conclusion too quickly.

-Rob

atcfixer

iTrader: (1)

Timing belt/chain really depends on the engine design, some engines are interference where the pistons can hit the valves and cause major damage, while other engines are non-interference. I'm not sure which the 3.0L is, but general rule of thumb is timing belt is non-interference most of the time.

cbr600rx7

I don't think the shop is "robbing him" you need to look at it from a liability stand point. If they recomend to only do the heads and that motor spins a bearing 3 weeks latter 90% of the time that shop is going to have a angry customer bad mouthing them to every one they meet. It's just the nature of the beast. If OP only wants the heads done then he should voice that to the shop and I am sure they will give him a estimate and probably a liability statement.

Also honing the cylinders requires the rotating assembly to be removed. Any real shop is going to require turning the crank and new bearings at this point. And with 140K on the clock it's a good bet that it's probably going to need boring even if it's only 0.010 over and that will require new Pistons. At this point you might as well Pony up and surface the block and drop a MLS gasket with ARP studs in there and never worry about a head gasket failure ever again.

For some of us that do most of the work our selves we can get away with "dirty rebuilds" my bottom end has 238,000 miles on it. However compression is not perfect (150-160 psi cold and dry) and my cylinders are 0.003 out of spec. However I was at the point where if I was going to spend another $1500 in the bottom end I would just swap a SBC or 3.4 in and be done with it. This is clearly not a option for every one. The 3VZE is expensive to rebuild and you can clearly see why.