palmer_df0130

The outside tread of my tires were wearing badly(cupping), so I recently had my alignment done and they said I needed shims to adjust the camber(positive), but I never really looked afterwards to see where the shims are placed. I got curious and looked around the a-arms and camber/caster adjustment bolts and didn't see anything. I searched on here and didn't see anything about shim placement. After reading the driveway alignment, I noticed the front cam bolts, in the post, with the tick marks on it are facing down. My drivers side one is facing up and the tie rod sleeve on drivers side is adjusted to the point that no threads are showing. What could cause this? You can look at the pic and see what I am talking about.

UKMyers

Do you beat on your truck? A bent crossmember or control arm could cause that. That's why a lot of guys install a Downey or similiar IFS truss. Back when my rig was still IFS my alignment was all whacked out just about everytime I wheeled it. If you don't wheel it then was it ever wrecked or anything??

palmer_df0130

I know it hasn't been wrecked in the 3 years I have had it. I don't do any hard off roading or anything either. Could bad control arm bushings cause it to do this? It seems that the last 2 times I have taken it in for an alignment, the TRE on the drivers side have been turned in quite a bit and the time before last, the alignment guy said I needed a new steering gear box. This time, they say I needed shims no steering gear!? I am planning to do the ball joints and tie rod ends real soon and take it back in for an alignment. It seems to track straight now and hardly any freeplay going down the road. Hopefully, I can figure out what's up with it and get it fixed.

MudHippy

There's no shims involved(they lie). And worn control arm bushings wouldn't likely cause much, other than a rough ride. If you don't have alot of play in the wheel, then you probably don't need a new gear box either(they lie too).

The drivers side camber/caster adjustment bolt is upside down in that pic. I'd put it back the way the factory intended.

As for the tie-rod sleeve, it's not supposed to be like that either. Should look the same on each side. Shoddy alignment shop(hope it didn't cost you much). You can correct it pretty easy. But you need to be able to set the toe(several ways to do it that aren't to difficult, provided you've got a real level/flat surface to park). You'll likely need to remove the steering wheel afterward to get it pointed in the right direction too.

Good luck!

InternetRoadkill

Check the bushings and check to see that the ride height is the same on both sides. You may have a weak torsion bar causing a lean to one side which would mess up the alignment. Cupping is usually due to worn shocks.

btw: removing the steering wheel to center the steering is a bad idea.

MudHippy

Toyota recommends that you "check that the steering wheel is straightened" after adjusting for toe(in/out). If necessary, straightening would require removing the steering wheel to do so.

http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b...axle/2-4wd.pdf

palmer_df0130

I really appreciate all your guys' responses. I did measure the ride height from the ground to the center of the front cam bolts on each side and they are same. If I were to take out the cam bolt on the drivers side and flip it so its facing down, will it mess up the alignment? I could put reference marks on the control arm and crossmember as a reference if it does move when I take it out. To take that bolt out, should I leave it as is resting on the ground or jack it up by the crossmember and let the suspension hang? How hard is it to do the toe in the driveway?

InternetRoadkill

The only reason the steering wheel would ever need to be moved is if someone had previously moved it trying to center a bad alignment job. Another reason would be that the pitman arm was replaced and not aligned to the steering box properly. You can also screw up the centering if you unbolt the steering column from the steering box and fail to bolt it back in the same position. It should never be necessary to move the steering wheel to center it.

You can check for proper centering by centering the wheel and measuring the distance from the inboard end of the tie rods to the frame. It should be the same on each side.

MudHippy

Umm...they don't mean "straighten" by turning the steering wheel so it's straight.

If you have adjusted for toe in the proper manner, and the steering wheel is not straight after doing so YOU SHOULD STRAIGHTEN IT. IF YOU TURN IT TO STRAIGHTEN IT YOU WILL KNOCK THE TOE OUT OF ALIGNMENT!!!! YOU MUST REMOVE THE STEERING WHEEL TO LEAVE THE ALIGNMENT UNDISTURBED!!!

I've been aligning my truck for the last 5 years and I've had to center the steering wheel afterward nearly EVERY time. Why do you think they put that step in the FSM?

Good grief....argue with Toyota...don't argue with me dude!

InternetRoadkill

The FSM doesn't tell you to remove the steering wheel to fix an alignment problem. If you're having to move the wheel, you've got problems in your steering setup.

xxxtreme22r

I agree with internet. if the pitman arm was never removed and the steering wheel was straight to begin with, then the steering wheel should be straight after the alignment, if its not then the center link is not centered to the frame where it should be, which could mean the tie rod ends are screwed further in or out than on the other side, which also means the steering geometry is wrong and can also mean there may be a bent frame somewhere leading to the toe being off more on one side than the other.

I haven't looked at the FSM regarding this, but I would be willing to bet it only says ensure steering wheel is straight after alignment and does not say to straighten it afterwards. This step would be necessary to ensure the proper centering of the steering system.

xxxtreme22r

yup I was right says nothing about moving it to straighten it. only says:

Insure that the lengths of the left and right tie rods
are equal.
NOTICE: Check that the steering wheel is straightened.

why? if you moved the tie rods to fix toe an unequal amount then that is when it will move the steering wheel.

palmer_df0130

My truck's alignment didn't start this way with the tie rods. It seems the last 2 times I had it aligned(same shop), they have continued to crank in on the left side. Can I extend the drivers side and take in the passenger side until they are equal and use the driveway alignment write up to make sure the toe is good? I measured the drivers side tie rod assembly and it is a good inch shorter than the passenger.

xxxtreme22r

I would do that, and never go to that alignment shop again. dillholes should know you have to move the tie rod ends in equal lengths.

P.S> don't be surprised if your steering wheel ends up crooked. it shouldn't, but it's possible. fix those camber bolts too.

xxxtreme22r

here is what I would do, since your toe is probably "close" measur eboth tie rod lengths from joint to joint, add those two together and divide by two. then make the tie rod ends equal that. it should give you a good starting point.

you can also just turn each one by the same amount of threads until they measure the same.

I am not too sure if toe affect camber on our trucks or not, on my BMW it does. but that might be why they had a hard time getting camber right.

clydehatchet

on our trucks, there are no shims. no if ands or buts. NO SHIMS! On some vehicles, adjusting toe will affect camber, not ours. only will camber adjustment affect toe. cupping is caused by, most commonly, lack of rotation... 75% of the time. the rest could be several things, balance, worn shocks, misalignment, incorrect wheel offset and backspacing, etc. there is no removing of the steering wheel for an alignment, should be no need. if there is a problem, the pitman arm should be removed and reinstalled properly to ensure equal rotation in the steering wheel. when you put new tie rods on, do inner, outer, AND adjustment sleeves. count the threads as you put them together and run them up half way into the sleeve. make the other side identical. Alignment. I've been a Hunter Certified Alignment Mechanic for a LONG time.

xxxtreme22r

thank you for the clarification on toe/camber clyde.

Is it possible that this guys alignment shop kept trying to get the camber correct (evident from improper position of camber bolts) and noticed that it kept changing toe to the point "they" couldn't or didn't know how to fix the toe (evident from the different lengths in the tie rods) and blamed it on needing shims?

clydehatchet

could be, i would like to see an alignment printout. the non symmetrical camber adjusting dials are not necessarily an indication of improper alignment, more less a lazy job. your adjustable alignment components are not necessarily supposed to be exactly mirrored, IE IFS. but too far off would lead to question what else needs to be straightened. Like i mentioned, if the pitman arm was replaced sometime in the past, that would lead to a HUGE difference in tie rod lengths. Meaning that if you want to define a straight steering wheel in relation to toe adjustment, it is assumed that your steering box will be at - 0 +, it wouldnt be at -1 or +2, it should be at 0, or straight. the only way to test for this is to take the tie rods loose and adjust them both to a specific length and check with the alignment machine.

palmer_df0130

Thanks for the replies Clyde and XXXtreme. The last 2 times I have been to that shop for an alignment, I asked for the printout and they said they don't hand them out anymore. I am done with that shop(Blacks Tire Goodyear Jacksonville, NC). I looked at the pitman arm and the reference marks are in line with each other. As far as turning that cam bolt around, will the control arm move when I take the bolt out? Also, should I leave the wheels on the ground when I do it?

palmer_df0130

All right!! Update to the situation. I measured both tie rods from end to end, added the lengths together, then divided them. It came out to 14 5/16" for each. I set the drivers side to that and the toe is way out there. The passenger side I have to soak in PB Blaster because it won't let me get the 1/4" or so to get to 14 5/16". I'm making sure the steering wheel is staying straight as I do this, but it doesn't look like those measurements are going to work. The FSM says each one should measure 12.933 inches center to center. Should I turn them in to that and see what it looks like from there? Am I going to have to adjust the camber also to get it right?