randes

Just bought this. Its popping out of 1st sometimes. I'm taking it in to be looked at but want to get some info. Has anyone had this problem with theirs? I've heard many different things. Bearings a fork etc. I'm afraid because its the dealers chosen mechanic they'll do just enough to get it going. I was told that the 1st and 2nd gears should be replaced if this is happening. Not sure thats what this guy is going to do. Any helpful thoughts from anyone?
thanks

myyota

I would check the shifter seat and bushing first, if its bad it can make it hard to shift, and sometimes make it pop out of gear. If thats the problem you can get replacements at marlin crawler there better quality than OEM.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

X2

Also, .... it can at times be the syncro's in the trans.. Mine used to pop out of 4th... never a problem going into it... THEN, as the syncro faded/disolved, ... I couldn't get it into 4th, but it stays in there no problem once in. It's like a guide that lines up the gears.

But yes, marlin bushing kit, first off

rbmoomba

I've blown up a few transmissions, but have yet to have problems with the syncros. I always have problems with the teeth on the gears. I will agree with the above, got my seats and bushings from marlin as well. Cheap fix and easy

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Yeah? This is the first trans that I've had do this on a Toy.. I suppose it could be a gear.... But I've been told that 4th isn't a solo gear... It's a combination? Anyway, this Toy Trans guy I know took a drive and longer looksee, ....and said, "the syncro that gives you a 4th gear CAN and does go out more than people hear about. It just wears out and while you can still get into gear, it will make things VERY ugly on certain shifts"...... Which is exactly what happened and began to get worse. NOW, it's seemingly the same. Hasn't gotten any worse(while my shifting HAS had to adjust via rpm, clutch and double shifting application at times, hahaha..)

Either way, if I can't find an R151F trans... I'ma have to just rebuild my W56... And hey, it lasted me 12 years/166K miles without a 'GRENADE' issue, lol..(and it's original... guy before me had it for 100K... So it's a 266K Trans... Not bad IMHO, haha.) I will find out for sure when it get's torn into

abecedarian

The purpose of the synchros is to act like an intermediate gear as your shifting- they slow down the input shaft and accelerate the output shaft as you're shifting gears so that the "real" gears are spinning at the appropriate speeds to let them mesh cleanly. In general, you should expect around 1/4 second for the gears to change speeds to they mesh when shifting normally- really... press the clutch down and when it hits the floor then you start to shift and you start pulling the lever and it engages and the clutch comes up takes less than 1/4 second?

A simple test of synchros is to take off from a dead stop then work through the gears without the clutch.
You have to rev the engine up high enough so that you have enough time to move the lever to the next gear before the engine speed drops below what's necessary for the gears to mesh.
So, when it's time to shift, let off the gas pedal then move the shift lever and hold constant but not heavy pressure on the shift lever for the next gear. If the shift lever moves to the next gear without grinding, the synchros aren't completely gone. If it grinds going in to that gear, there's a problem.

I should add that a driver familiar with their vehicle should be able to upshift and downshift without using the clutch.... Ask the truckers about that.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Yep, I dry shifted many thousands of miles in a Mack and PB 40'er... (took a couple years off from food to help work at my Brother in laws Hazmat Co.) I can shift at times when the rpms are just right without any grinding... But I could do it much more easily with my 86 and couple others. When I shift into 4th(with new shifter bushings), it grinds unless I get it JUST RIGHT on all counts... I actually have to let the RPM drop a bit and then carefully pull it from gear, to neutral, then kidna coax it into 4th. It's funny, cuz it would NEVER, before, give me a problem going INTO 4th, as I formerly mentioned... But it would pop out of gear, out of nowhere. NOW, it doesn't WANT to go in but never pop's out. Whatever it is.... IT'S INSIDE, hahaha.. So I'ma have to get in there at some point and start replacing things/or let AA Gear have it for a couple days to knock it out. ORRRRRR, If I could just find a smooth and problem free used one... I'm down with that too, haha. Just can't trust CL ones to be honest. I guess I could do SOME testing on the ground... But a problem like mine is a lil harder to find with a trans sitting on the ground, ya know?

Hope you're well, Abe! BTW, LOVE the sig!

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

I have been told by the person that does my trans and rear work .

Most likely it is going to be a bearing starting to fail.

It can`t hurt to replace the shifter bushings first.

rbmoomba

Probably an input shaft bearing if 4th gear is good. I had some horrible noises in all gears except 4th. The shop that does my rebuilds only works on manuals and (in my opinion) is cheap. $400 for a complete rebuild and they are super reliable and fast. I use pennzoil synchromesh libricants which is supposed to work well with the (?brass?) synchros

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

ABE! hahaha..... OK, so I was heading down to pick up some cooking gear.... .when suddenly I remembered this post. Took me a while to find it, but then remembered 'randes' thread is where this came up. Anywhoooooooooo;

1. I dry shifted into 3rd and 4th..... both times it went into gear without TONS of resistance/no grinding. Seems to grind worse with the clutch at times!

2. I KNOW this problem has something to do with 4th, in particular... As I mentioned, the thing USED to pop out of 4th after I'd let someone drive it on the trail while I drove their rig out w/no 4WD as it brokededed, haha.... At some point, he said he hit the bottom hard... I couldn't see anything. BUT, later, as I started to have a whirling noise and drama with the trans.... I realized upon further inspection that the Trans Drain Bolt/housing had been hit/loosened(?)/something.... Cuz it was leaking as I put a small amount of fluid in. Replaced the bolt with OEM and voila, no more leak... BUT, drama ever since with 4th! SO, short story version; IT RAN OUT OF GEAR OIL at one point, nearly empty, and since then has been a problem!

3. Considering #1 and #2, ....what do you think, JUST GUESS, might be my problem in there? (REMEMBER, when this started, then draining and flushing and filling it.... it was previously POPPING OUT of 4th... Even did so for a while after, all on it's own. AFTER the fill, it seemed to work ok for around 60K or so.... Suddenly, just around 10K or so ago.... 4th Gear is giving me drama GOING INTO 4th... But never pops out. Just doesn't wanna go in, especially with the clutch being used).

Interesting on the Synchromesh, thanks. I'll look into that, depending on what I do(But since I might not even have a 4th Gear Synchro any longer.... Might wait until I rebuilt, etc.) Figured I'd ask this question to you as well, considering you seem to know a bit about trans'stuff's?

PS>>>>>>>>>> SHIFTER BUSHINGS FROM MARLIN ARE NEW, nice and tight!

abecedarian

Amazing thing the human brain.
Maybe you have Tourette's in a good way?
>bob saget<

That could make sense when you realize as soon as you put the clutch in, and the shifter gets out of gear, the input shaft slows down quickly so by the time you get the lever close to 4th, the input shaft has already slowed down too much. The syncho's then have to speed up the input shaft to match 4th's rotational speed so the gears will engage. Shifting without the clutch means the input shaft is still turning faster than 4th and though the engine / flywheel will slow down the input shaft, it doesn't slow down as quickly giving you more time to synch up with 4th.

If you ran without or low on gear oil for long enough, the synchro's will have some damage as could the forks and other hard parts, like the gearsets themselves.

*Thanks Hardstripe for the image.

On the upper shaft, left to right is 4th, 4/3 synchro and fork, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd/1st synchro and fork, and 1st gear. All 4 of those gears are in contact with the intermediate shaft (bottom) so all gears are turning all the time, just not all are engaged with the input shaft- and that's the job of the synchro's.

You can probably figure how important fluid level is in there just from seeing the insides. Look at how small 4th driven gear is (on the intermediate / lower shaft) so how high the fluid level has to be to get oil on it, and how high the fluid level has to be to get to the syncro's- like where's the fill plug relative to this? Nearly half-way up from the bottom?

Odds are the problems is there.

randes

Well the deal isn't going to fix the problem. He says I'm not shifting right, that they can't get it to pop out of 1st. It doesn't happen all the time. One of the mechanics got it to happen. I show him I can get it to slip. It happens when I shift into 1st. Could I be doing something wrong? I've been using stick shifts for 30 years. It's a v6, I'm use to 4cyl, maybe its a little more touchy. There is no grinding. They said they replaced the stick shift tower and thermostat. This was the dealers mechanic. I might be getting worked over. When I'm in 1st and I'm just going along in the same speed thats when it pops out also. To me a transmission shouldn't pop out. It seems like the clutch would pop and bring it to a stop? As of now it seems to be working fine, no grinding, no problem with other gears, just first, MAYBE second but that would have happened only once or twice, not even sure, wasn't really expecting it to happen.
thanks for all the posts.

randes

Just picked up from the dealer and I didn't go 2 blocks and it popped out 4x's. I thought of something, maybe it will give someone a clue as the problem. It seems like it happens more after its been sitting a while. I might be grasping at straws, but, is there a part that swells when it warms up maybe?
thanks for any help you can give.

abecedarian

Once it's in gear, it should not pop out.
The only things that would 'cause' it to pop out are:
- bent shift fork, worn synchro, worn bearings, worn gears... and possibly a bent shift lever. Which amounts to anything that doesn't put it fully in gear to begin with.

If it's been a "long" standing problem, maybe the shift lever is bent, and in particular the part below the ball seat: the more it happens, the harder you pull, the more it bends. Just saying.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Wow, sorry to hear, Randes! Just having a heck of a time here!

ABE, YOU ARE DA MAN! lol....

After driving a couple different 18 Wheelers and a Mack 32' Box.... for a couple years.... You'd have thunk I'd have THUNKED of it! ... But yes, I now have been cruising town using the clutch for every gear but 4th..... NOT A SINGLE GRIND into 4th when I shift without the clutch... I can't even MAKE it grind! hahaha... I can also shift into 2nd, 3rd and 5th without the clutch... did it for a while, so I "Have the touch/timing down"(I know what you meant).... But I'll just stick with using it except for 4th. BTW, ...... the one thing I'd FORGOTTEN to factor in... MIGHT be relevant.....

*** When I refilled the trans, it was NOT COMPLETELY empty, Abe.... but very low. I think I got under a quart out of it. YES, that's essentially dry... hahaa... but not QUITE dry. So I guess that saved it to the point that it still works quite well aside from being a lil sticky in 2nd and grinding using the clutch for 4th. What I FORGOT to mention, actually, was that I REPLACED THE BUSHINGS with a Marlin Set.... It had already ceased 'popping out', but I think that's just cuz I got the right fluid in there, JUST in time. Yes, some damage was surely done.. But hey, I still have every gear with a lil finagling, and it's NOT gotten worse... It's just the same, pretty much. I CAN use the clutch and not grind in 4th... but it's a lot more difficult than when not using the clutch.

************************************************** ***************

Randes... did you put in the new Marlin Shifter kit? I thought I remember you said you did. I'll read back.

randes

thanks, good info. Not sure what I can do in this situation tho. Any ideas how people handle this sort of thing? What is a shift tower. No one mentioned that and why would they put a thermostat in. They said it cost over 600 ( half labor half parts) and now they expect me to pay a deductible? It sounds fishy to me. Sounds like they don't want to live up to their warrantee.
In this condition will the problem get worse? IYO; best guess without seeing it how long may it last? And what should this cost to fix? I've gotten prices, but want other opinions. Other mechanics I talked to said they wouldn't know until they take it out. Could cost 2-3k.
thanks

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Is this a warranty from a place that fixed it before you became owner? You might have to get firm here, Randes.... NOT NASTY, that gets you nowhere. Just firm........ READ the Warranty, and then do a lil more searching if it's not a "Get it in here now or we will not warranty this work".... Too difficult over the net to say, "YEP, they're being corrupt/malicious/sneaky", ya know? That can greatly hurt a company. BUT, if it SAYS, CLEARLY, in the warranty, "()*&, 2011 to #*()*& 2013 limited warranty" and therein says "We will replace all parts, labor not included"(which is usually the case), then you have to tell them, "NO, I WILL NOT pay for parts, .... it says right here...............", ya know?

I have a place near me, in L.A., that supplies many of the Gears and Syncrho's and bearings and so on to many shops like you're dealing with... They also rebuild... THE MAX price for a repair, there EVERYTHING within reason needs to be replaced, is 500$.... and they pick it up and drop it off from my house! Now yes, that's not average... But 600$ to open it up and replace a synchro or something?

Personally, "GUESSING", as you put it,... it sounds to me as though they didn't line something up properly. IT HAPPENS.... And OF COURSE THEY SAID, "We can't get it to screw up on us.... You're doing something wrong, maybe?".... Funny, they then say, "It's 600$ parts and labor"......... WTH? THAT, Randes, seems a lil fishy to me.. But again, I don't know all the story just yet. Could you repeat it, even if you've shared? just a Summary?

Thanks,

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

2-3k$??????????????? DUDE, ... that would DEFINITELY be ripping you off! Even removing and reinstalling,...that's steep! PULL IT YOURSELF, unless you can get the shop that it's warrantied under is willing to repair it for a more reasonable price! (AGAIN, I'M NOT FULLY ABREAST OF THE TOTALITY OF YOUR WARRANTY.. FILL ME IN) Is the first shop you mentioned including removal and installation?

RJR

Hey Randes, just a thought - could it be your technique? On my '94, if I absentmindedly leave my hand resting on the shifter, putting just the slightest pressure on the lever, it will pop out of 1st every time. If I put my hand back on the steering wheel where it belongs, it never comes out of gear.

Ron

randes

I'm thinking the same thing. But I think for me, that I haven't been getting the RPMs up enough, it will pop out if I don't, which doesn't seem right. But that seems to help. Also I've been holding the stick so it doesn't pop out, not sure thats making a difference yet or not.
But I still think theres a problem, it shouldn't be popping out. But I can make it last a while I think.