86 vs 92 big issues
08-12-2011, 07:07 PM
#1
86 vs 92 big issues
Have 1992 22re 4x4 A/T Pickup - Bought motor from an 86 22re M/T
Got a JASPER motor from a guy that ran like a champ, but now I have a ton of issues. 1. Never changed a motor in an A/T 2. never messed with an RE, always 22r. That being said, could be me!! Need some help. The 86 fuel delivery, vacuum and electrical is CRAZY different. I used the new motor, and lower intake but put on the fuel rail and the upper intake (Plenum) because it is all different electrically from the 86. Turns over and tries to fire, but nada. Never removed the distributor from the new engine, but checked tdc anyway...Right on the money. Yes...removed the clutch pack from the 86 and installed the A/T flywheel and torque converter. This is the other "Unknown." even though ll looks and sounds good is that setup correct? Need some help guys. Got pics, but can't seem to get them to upload. Vacuum problems would be my guess, but which way do I go...86 or 92?!! Spark and fuel good!
Bob
Got a JASPER motor from a guy that ran like a champ, but now I have a ton of issues. 1. Never changed a motor in an A/T 2. never messed with an RE, always 22r. That being said, could be me!! Need some help. The 86 fuel delivery, vacuum and electrical is CRAZY different. I used the new motor, and lower intake but put on the fuel rail and the upper intake (Plenum) because it is all different electrically from the 86. Turns over and tries to fire, but nada. Never removed the distributor from the new engine, but checked tdc anyway...Right on the money. Yes...removed the clutch pack from the 86 and installed the A/T flywheel and torque converter. This is the other "Unknown." even though ll looks and sounds good is that setup correct? Need some help guys. Got pics, but can't seem to get them to upload. Vacuum problems would be my guess, but which way do I go...86 or 92?!! Spark and fuel good!
Bob
Last edited by navman93; 08-12-2011 at 07:15 PM.
08-12-2011, 07:51 PM
#2
i thought the 22re in my 86 was different at the plugs vs the one in my 89 and my buddies 92. sorry if that doesn't help
Last edited by yotarover; 08-12-2011 at 08:17 PM.
08-13-2011, 01:45 AM
#3
Registered User
This might help you. Download the 90-95 4Runner manual from the sticky in this section. Once downloaded open as follows:
1990-1995_4runner_wm
-techinfo.toyota.com
-ileaf
-95toyrm
-95toypdf
-95rmsour
-1995
-954runne
-eg1
-mfisyste
-discript.pdf
This is a diagram for a 90-95 4Runner 22re MFSI system. Hopefully this diagram can help you figure out all of your routings for the vacuum hoses.
1990-1995_4runner_wm
-techinfo.toyota.com
-ileaf
-95toyrm
-95toypdf
-95rmsour
-1995
-954runne
-eg1
-mfisyste
-discript.pdf
This is a diagram for a 90-95 4Runner 22re MFSI system. Hopefully this diagram can help you figure out all of your routings for the vacuum hoses.
Last edited by Hadmatt54; 08-13-2011 at 01:49 AM.
08-13-2011, 08:54 AM
#4
Registered User
Do you have your pics loaded to photobucket or what?
You need to use whatever you can from your '92 save the long block from the '86.
What symptoms exactly are happening when your try to start it?
You're sure fuel is getting to every cylinder....ie. all the injectors are firing?
You need to use whatever you can from your '92 save the long block from the '86.
What symptoms exactly are happening when your try to start it?
You're sure fuel is getting to every cylinder....ie. all the injectors are firing?
08-13-2011, 10:43 AM
#5
92 to 86
Can't get the pics to load...too big, wife is gonna help with them later. No not sure if EVERY cylinder is getting fuel, but all four plugs were damp(Flooded it out of frustration..LOL) when I pulled them to check TDC. Symptoms when starting? Well....Just doesn't seems to want to come to idle, fires with choke set (Key on one pump on pedal) but doesn't even come close to actually starting. Threw some ether in the plenum and I get a quick fire then NADA. I have removed the 92 upper intake unit from it and fuel rail...Suspect possibly the injectors could have been blocked, they look OK, but am not sure how I can test them. Shame..The fuel rail that came with the 86 motor has BRAND new injectors, but different elec connectors. Was thinking I'd roll to the ole junkyard and splice in the connectors I need, but MAN, I really don't want to HACK the wiring.. Wish I could U/L the pics, then you could see the OBVIOUS differences in the upper intake and fuel rails. Also, the vacuum piping that runs on the passenger side of the valve cover is different...Less lines on the 86. There are many more issues than this, but I'll just get to them one at a time...starting with the fuel rail and upper intake...Bolt them on and give em a try?? I'll just use jumpers on the connectors for now. Waste of time?? Maybe, but I'm not getting anywhere now anyway...Ordered a Chilton nearly 3 weeks ago and still not here!!! USPS!!!! AHHHHH
08-13-2011, 12:09 PM
#6
Registered User
Can't get the pics to load...too big, wife is gonna help with them later.
Alrighty then....pics, if you could swing it, would really help. That way a good visual of your vac line routing can be had.
No not sure if EVERY cylinder is getting fuel, but all four plugs were damp(Flooded it out of frustration..LOL) when I pulled them to check TDC.
Well, that would indicate you're getting fuel. Doesn't say how balanced fuel distribution is, but if all four are getting fuel, it should atleast start provided there aren't other issues....which you appear to be having.
If your cam and crank are at TDC, you need to make sure mechanic timing is set while on the compression stroke...ie, rotor is pointing at the number terminal on the distributor cap. Is it?
Symptoms when starting? Well....Just doesn't seems to want to come to idle, fires with choke set (Key on one pump on pedal) but doesn't even come close to actually starting.
So, some combustion is happening, but not enough to get the motor running? Does it back fire, any dark smoke, any attempt at all to run on it's own?
Your vehicle doesn't have a choke, dude. So, pumping the pedal...once or otherwise....doesn't set anything. You're just opening the throttle. Everything "choke" related (called fuel enrichement program) is electronic and is ECU controlled in cooperation with the coolant temp sensor and the cold start system. Now, if your engine is flooding when you're trying to start it, holding the throttle wide open/all the way can help by allowing more air through the induction system. But, holding the throttle open doesn't cause more fuel to be injected in this case. Coolant temp and RPM load has more to do with that.
Threw some ether in the plenum and I get a quick fire then NADA. I have removed the 92 upper intake unit from it and fuel rail...Suspect possibly the injectors could have been blocked, they look OK, but am not sure how I can test them. Shame..The fuel rail that came with the 86 motor has BRAND new injectors, but different elec connectors. Was thinking I'd roll to the ole junkyard and splice in the connectors I need, but MAN, I really don't want to HACK the wiring..
No, no, no....don't do any of that. The injectors on the '86 may have a different voltage demand to operate them than your '92 will supply and vice versa. Use everything from the '92 electronics systems to mate with your '92 ECU. Some parts may work, but since I don't know for sure and you don't know at all the best play is to be safe.
I don't see how the injectors could have been blocked by simply removing and installing. You could test the injectors by pulling the intake off and removing the rail with injectors intact to make they're all working, but if the plugs are getting wet I don't know if that's necessary right now.
Wish I could U/L the pics, then you could see the OBVIOUS differences in the upper intake and fuel rails. Also, the vacuum piping that runs on the passenger side of the valve cover is different...Less lines on the 86. There are many more issues than this, but I'll just get to them one at a time...starting with the fuel rail and upper intake...Bolt them on and give em a try?? I'll just use jumpers on the connectors for now. Waste of time?? Maybe, but I'm not getting anywhere now anyway...Ordered a Chilton nearly 3 weeks ago and still not here!!! USPS!!!! AHHHHH
Alrighty then....pics, if you could swing it, would really help. That way a good visual of your vac line routing can be had.
No not sure if EVERY cylinder is getting fuel, but all four plugs were damp(Flooded it out of frustration..LOL) when I pulled them to check TDC.
Well, that would indicate you're getting fuel. Doesn't say how balanced fuel distribution is, but if all four are getting fuel, it should atleast start provided there aren't other issues....which you appear to be having.
If your cam and crank are at TDC, you need to make sure mechanic timing is set while on the compression stroke...ie, rotor is pointing at the number terminal on the distributor cap. Is it?
Symptoms when starting? Well....Just doesn't seems to want to come to idle, fires with choke set (Key on one pump on pedal) but doesn't even come close to actually starting.
So, some combustion is happening, but not enough to get the motor running? Does it back fire, any dark smoke, any attempt at all to run on it's own?
Your vehicle doesn't have a choke, dude. So, pumping the pedal...once or otherwise....doesn't set anything. You're just opening the throttle. Everything "choke" related (called fuel enrichement program) is electronic and is ECU controlled in cooperation with the coolant temp sensor and the cold start system. Now, if your engine is flooding when you're trying to start it, holding the throttle wide open/all the way can help by allowing more air through the induction system. But, holding the throttle open doesn't cause more fuel to be injected in this case. Coolant temp and RPM load has more to do with that.
Threw some ether in the plenum and I get a quick fire then NADA. I have removed the 92 upper intake unit from it and fuel rail...Suspect possibly the injectors could have been blocked, they look OK, but am not sure how I can test them. Shame..The fuel rail that came with the 86 motor has BRAND new injectors, but different elec connectors. Was thinking I'd roll to the ole junkyard and splice in the connectors I need, but MAN, I really don't want to HACK the wiring..
No, no, no....don't do any of that. The injectors on the '86 may have a different voltage demand to operate them than your '92 will supply and vice versa. Use everything from the '92 electronics systems to mate with your '92 ECU. Some parts may work, but since I don't know for sure and you don't know at all the best play is to be safe.
I don't see how the injectors could have been blocked by simply removing and installing. You could test the injectors by pulling the intake off and removing the rail with injectors intact to make they're all working, but if the plugs are getting wet I don't know if that's necessary right now.
Wish I could U/L the pics, then you could see the OBVIOUS differences in the upper intake and fuel rails. Also, the vacuum piping that runs on the passenger side of the valve cover is different...Less lines on the 86. There are many more issues than this, but I'll just get to them one at a time...starting with the fuel rail and upper intake...Bolt them on and give em a try?? I'll just use jumpers on the connectors for now. Waste of time?? Maybe, but I'm not getting anywhere now anyway...Ordered a Chilton nearly 3 weeks ago and still not here!!! USPS!!!! AHHHHH
You see, what you're dealing with is the fact that the '92 has more emissions equipment and some related switches the '86 doesn't have. I have an '86 and have seen the later models. They are a bit more complex, but really not much different because they both operate the same as an engine.
I'm going to need to refresh myself on the '92 manual online here. I'll be back.......
08-13-2011, 05:46 PM
#7
THX in Advance
Matt...Thanks for helpin me through this whole fuel injection thing, used to swap 22r's all day when I was a kid (Probably about ten in and out, but all M/T's and never an RE. I'm an aircraft mechanic(19 years), so maybe one day you'll need your jet fixed and......LOL. Problem is, since 1990 all I have done is buy the newer stuff and never played with it again until now...Daughter's ride. I think I might have the pics figured out. Just know that I started taking the pics with some vac lines and stuff off to remove the upper intake. Should still indicate all the differences. When I take things apart, I normally remember, but in this case I didn't take the damned thing apart!! Wanna beat that boy, but he had good intentions and probably directed by my daughter.
So...With what you said...According to the owner's manual, turning the key then pushing the gas to the floor and releasing before trying to start helps with cold starting. Just what the manual says is all. Not saying you are wrong. Also...if you want to go all 1992 as best, I will also pull the 86 vac rail from next to the valve cover and put the 92 in, has more ports for vac lines curing most of my "Where the hell does this one go" problem.
Thanks Matthew......Bob
So...With what you said...According to the owner's manual, turning the key then pushing the gas to the floor and releasing before trying to start helps with cold starting. Just what the manual says is all. Not saying you are wrong. Also...if you want to go all 1992 as best, I will also pull the 86 vac rail from next to the valve cover and put the 92 in, has more ports for vac lines curing most of my "Where the hell does this one go" problem.
Thanks Matthew......Bob
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08-13-2011, 06:12 PM
#9
More Upper intake
More pics...What gets me also is the valve(where the hose is attached) on pic DSCF0730 that is not on the 1992...From what I've seen it should be there on the 92 as well
08-13-2011, 06:25 PM
#10
VAC lines
Like I said the camera didn't come out until after the upper intake was removed or at least in prep for removal. BTW..Rerouted the injector wiring CORRECTLY after I removed the intake. Pic 712.....Not exactly sure where this one went...Considering it is the IAC, could've been the whole problem...couldn't find good instruction on this one. OH and BTW...I removed the VSV's before the pics...If you were wondering.
08-13-2011, 06:36 PM
#11
MorePics
Just some snaps I took of lines. Pic 725, this line just does not look right, but saw where this was supposed to go on another thread....I have it from the T-stat housing...92 does not have it the same setup. I'll get some pics of the "Lime Green" 92 motor soon...You'll see what I mean about Lime Green...LOL
Last edited by navman93; 08-13-2011 at 06:39 PM.
08-13-2011, 06:49 PM
#12
Jasper Engine
According to the guy I bought it from this motor only has 27k on it. Possible I suppose, but the sticker from Jasper had a serial number on it, so I emailed Jasper and they said it was built as a "Stock Standard Replacement" engine in 2003. So I seriously doubt 27K, but is quiet as a church mouse and smoke free when running. Let her run for a good 15 minutes and she never left mid range on the temp gauge...Little to no leaking. So I bought it and pulled it.
Pic with intake removed.
Pic with intake removed.
08-13-2011, 07:07 PM
#13
Daughter's 92
Figured I'd put the "Vehicle in question" on here and explain the lime green motor comment, plus the 86 after install into the truck.
Lime green motor---Well, let's just say that my daughter is...."COLORFUL." Tole the boyfriend that the motor that HE took out needed painted. As any good boyfriend he obliged even though he knew it was stupid. She wanted lime green....There you go, the block is the same color. At least it is high temp paint..LOL. daughters man..WOW.
Lime green motor---Well, let's just say that my daughter is...."COLORFUL." Tole the boyfriend that the motor that HE took out needed painted. As any good boyfriend he obliged even though he knew it was stupid. She wanted lime green....There you go, the block is the same color. At least it is high temp paint..LOL. daughters man..WOW.
08-13-2011, 07:13 PM
#14
Lines
i was unsure here too, but attached it to the back of the upper intake. Assume emissions for fuel gasses, since it is not rigid. AND the only end that size within reach..LOL
Last edited by navman93; 08-13-2011 at 07:35 PM.
08-14-2011, 04:52 AM
#15
Registered User
I've got a Haynes 79-95 pickup manual and a Chiltons 89-96 pickup manual. I was able to scan the vacuum diagram.This one is for Federal and Canadian, if your daughters truck is from California, I'll have to scan and post that up for you.
Good Luck!
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Good Luck!
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Last edited by Hadmatt54; 08-14-2011 at 04:53 AM.
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08-14-2011, 10:02 AM
#17
Cool...that's the way I was with the pics
Nope...Has the TVV on the federal schematic...Not california
Appreciate the pics....I am currently RE-installing the upper intake and replacing the 86 vacuum rail with the one from the 92. All 92 Injectors, plenum etc....distributor and coil are the same best I can tell...othersise, connectors won't match.
Will let you know.
Still don't know where the line from the fuel system goes from the last set of pics and the IAC line still concerns me.
Appreciate the pics....I am currently RE-installing the upper intake and replacing the 86 vacuum rail with the one from the 92. All 92 Injectors, plenum etc....distributor and coil are the same best I can tell...othersise, connectors won't match.
Will let you know.
Still don't know where the line from the fuel system goes from the last set of pics and the IAC line still concerns me.
Last edited by navman93; 08-14-2011 at 10:07 AM.
08-14-2011, 10:43 AM
#18
Registered User
On early EFI's (speaking of Toyota's only), your choke equivalent is the cold start injector. It receives a signal and operates (should) while cranking the motor, but will only operate when coolant temp is low. The time switch circuit is closed at this point allowing the voltage in the circuit to ground and pulse the injector. Even then, the switch will only be closed when coolant temps are below 68*.....above which the ECU can operate the injector for a few seconds up until the coolant reaches somewhere around 113*.
However, in this case, by turning the key (and not starting...which would activate the cold start system) it signals the pump for a few seconds to maximize pressure in the system. By opening the throttle fully...even if only for a few moments, you're allowing more oxygen into the intake to maximize combustion........which, as I'm sure you know, can be less the optimal when ambient temp and coolant temp is cold.
Okay....more in a minute.
08-14-2011, 11:16 AM
#19
Registered User
In other words, anything that draws power from the motor while the motor is operating at idle or low RPM's.....like the a/c or power steering.... requires that there be some form of compensation for it. In the case of the A/C, the VSS allows a small, controlled vacuum leak into the plenum to bring the engine RPM's up so the drain on the motor does not occur. The idle up valve allows for some adjustment should the amount leakage the VSS provides be not enough or too much. But, you should never really have to mess with the adjustment if the VSS and related systems are operating correctly.....though, it does happen that way sometimes.
So, yes.....you should have one on your '92 set up. I'm not really sure where it'd be located on yours. A possibility, maybe...if you don't see anywhere it would mount on the '92 plenum body, is the pass side wheel well inside the engine compartment. It is on a '92 V6, anyway.
Last edited by thook; 08-14-2011 at 11:19 AM.
08-14-2011, 11:49 AM
#20
Registered User
Like I said the camera didn't come out until after the upper intake was removed or at least in prep for removal. BTW..Rerouted the injector wiring CORRECTLY after I removed the intake.
Are you using the '92 ECU and wiring harness?
Are you using the '92 injectors?
Pic 712.....Not exactly sure where this one went...Considering it is the IAC, could've been the whole problem...couldn't find good instruction on this one.
Are you trying to use that IAC on your '92 set up? If so, it won't work. The '92 set up uses an IAC that's integrated into the throttle body. In fact, in the bottom of it and is solely coolant temp operated. The '86 IAC is heater operated by voltage supplied from the fuel pump relay circuit and ambient air temp's.....which means your '92 electrical system won't operate it.
You need to use the '92 intake......upper and lower...with the '92 throttle body to have everything work right. And, you're right........the IAC could very well be your big problem. Atleast, it's part of it....if I understand correctly and you are indeed trying to use it.
but OH and BTW...I removed the VSV's before the pics...If you were wondering.
Are you using the '92 ECU and wiring harness?
Are you using the '92 injectors?
Pic 712.....Not exactly sure where this one went...Considering it is the IAC, could've been the whole problem...couldn't find good instruction on this one.
Are you trying to use that IAC on your '92 set up? If so, it won't work. The '92 set up uses an IAC that's integrated into the throttle body. In fact, in the bottom of it and is solely coolant temp operated. The '86 IAC is heater operated by voltage supplied from the fuel pump relay circuit and ambient air temp's.....which means your '92 electrical system won't operate it.
You need to use the '92 intake......upper and lower...with the '92 throttle body to have everything work right. And, you're right........the IAC could very well be your big problem. Atleast, it's part of it....if I understand correctly and you are indeed trying to use it.
but OH and BTW...I removed the VSV's before the pics...If you were wondering.
Last edited by thook; 08-14-2011 at 12:03 PM.
