juwan_john

Hey there!

Completely new to YotaTech and already in need of some help. I recently picked up a 1993 Runner 3.0L with about 222K miles on it. Before I bought it the truck sat undriven for over a year. It ran like a champ until I replaced the radiator. After the install I gave the engine bay a nice hose down and then the car wouldn't turn over. So I went out and bought a fresh Optima Redtop and it started right up. It ran great for a couple days with no issues, but then she died on me again. Now she won't crank or turn over on her own. I replaced the starter with a remanufactured OEM Denso and I replaced the starter relay as well. I've checked all connections and there is voltage going to the starter as well as the relay. All the lights inside work when I turn to ACC, but when I turn it to ON the clock dies while all other lights remain undimmed. I don't think it's fuel pump since it starts from a jump. Could it be that the battery isn't supplying enough juice? It starts immediately with a jump and I can see an increase on the dash voltage meter when it's hooked up to a jumper. I'm running out of ideas and summer is here so I'm dying to get it up and running. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

scope103

Always starts with a jump?

Is your battery charged? You need a multimeter; the battery should have about 12.6v (temperature dependent) right on the terminals. If lower than, oh, 12.1v it's discharged. Then turn the key; the battery should not drop below, oh, 12.0v, when cranking.

Put your multimeter on the battery cables (not the terminals) and turn the key. If you get a big drop and the starter doesn't turn, you have a bad connection to the battery (and when you're jumping, the jumper cables get the "good" connection to the cables, and your fancy battery isn't involved at all.)

Does the clock go out with key-on, or with key-start? With key start, it just sounds like a discharged battery. With key-on, it sounds like a short in the something like the EFI or alternator circuit (a circuit that doesn't come on with key-acc).

juwan_john

Yup. With a jump it starts like it's new. The battery is charged. Had it load tested and it's putting out more power than it's rated. I've been checking everything with my mulitmeter. The battery is putting out 12.6V. I also put one end on the battery and another on the starter housing and that's getting 12.6V, too. I checked the continuity of the relay and that seems fine, too. I'll have to check the battery when I crank, as well as, on the cables. That's a good call for sure.

The clock is full and bright when I stick the key in, but it goes out when I try to crank.

I'll test those cables and see if I get any drops when I try to crank and get back to let you know how that goes.

Charchee

Most of the time when they start on a jump but not with a charged battery, is a bad battery that will hold voltage but not supply amps. However, sounds like you have nearly ruled that out. When you have a confirmed battery and it still won't crank, it can be bad connections or bad battery cables. Triple check all of your main cables for wear and bad connections. Something is stealing your current when you hit the key and there are only a few places to look in this circuit. The jump battery is making up for it when you jump start it.

scope103

The starter housing is just ground, so measuring from the battery to the housing just confirms that the starter is not insulated from the transmission. (Well, I guess it confirms that there is some ground connection back to the battery.

What would be more interesting (but much harder to do) is to measure the voltage on the starter (the big lug, not just he solenoid) while attempting to crank. That would give you the voltage drop in the starter cable.

It sounds like you are on the right track.

Charchee

If there isn't a resistance issue in the cable to starter + lug, measuring at the battery + to engine block ground should give the same reading.

Even still, taking that measurement at the starter may still yield a healthy voltage even with half of the cable broken.

The way I would personally attack it would be to first, make me a nice, new, 2g positive cable and install it to the starter. That is a cheap upgrade that will eliminate the possibility of a resistance issue there. Not saying that you should go and do that necessarily. My rigs are my hobby so if I suspect a potential weak point in them, like maybe a 30 year old 6g cable to my starter, I spend the $10-$15 and upgrade that component. I don't count those dollars as repair costs, but maintenance / upgrades.

RAD4Runner

O.P.
Sooo... you have a brand new battery. BUT do you have bare, shiny metal contacting bare, shiny metal on your battery connections? On your ground connections? Try that first. It's free.

juwan_john

This is a project for me, as well. Looking to make it into a great camping and adventure vehicle. I might just have to spring for that 10-15 for new cables since that's pretty cheap and totally worth it.

My connections look really good and I've cleaned them before, but I might just do it one more time to see what happens. Just to make sure.

juwan_john

I think I may have found the source of the problem. Went to clean the body ground from the battery today and noticed some green on the cable. Some guy warned me of finding green on the cables so I stripped some more of my negative cable and found that there was more. So definitely going to install some new cables. Does anybody have any good sources for getting some good quality cables? I'm in Colorado. I need 2/0 gauge right?

scope103

Replacing the cables is fine, but wouldn't you want to know if that IS the problem first? Just put your voltmeter across that cable (one lead on one end, the other lead on the other). Then try to crank Since it's supposed to be a solid conductor, you should never get a voltage drop of more than a few millvolts. If you measure a volt or two, replace the cable.

RAD4Runner

There you go! Toyota components are almost always bullet-proof. The problem usually lies in the way they are wired (i.e., absence of OR faulty wiring of starter relay in 22R-E's, poor wiring of headlight circuit) or assembled. Therefore, before we suspect and replace expensive components, let's suspect inexpensive wiring and assembly work first.

Yep, 2/0 is plenty thick.
Also inspect the fusible link wire between battery and fuse block.
When it's time for me to replace battery cables (and any cable near battery acid), I would:
1) Apply solder flux on wire,
2) Crimp proper lug terminal,
3) Wick solder into any voids using my 80-watt Weller soldering iron,
4) Coat exposed metal not necessary for connection with liquid rubber tape, and heat-shrink... OR use heat-shrink with built-in adhesive.

And use Marine Battery Terminals.

Charchee

Just measure your cable. I normally use a length of little wire or even some string so I can account for the curves in it. Note the size of the lug that you are bolting it down to and which battery post it's going on, (some batteries have different diameter posts). Take your measurements to any parts house or even Walmart and pick out a cable that is made just like yours in 2ga. If they don't have what you want, many parts houses will build the cable for you. I know Bumper to Bumper or Napa can. Super easy and costs very little. This is something I do to a "new to me" rig every time I troubleshoot a starting or charging circuit for the first time.

juwan_john

Yeah definitely should have started with this instead of replacing the starter, but you live and you learn. Plus side is that I can get that starter in or out in 5 mins on my curb. I'll get those cables in and hopefully that's the golden ticket.

Smaay

did you clean the terminal clamps for the battery? corrosion might be preventing good connection and not enough juice to turn starter

Charchee

Good for you if you can swap starters in five minutes. I've never removed the one in my 89 4Runner 3.0 but the last 3.4 starter i removed only fell out as I removed the engine. Same location and mounting setup. I hope neither of mine ever have to come out. If one of them does, I'll be in touch.

RAD4Runner

Little late to the party, eh? Pls see above posts.

juwan_john

Alright guys, so I got new cables in and it's still doing the same thing. So now I'm thinking back and have another question. Would any of this be caused by an aftermarket alarm system? The guy who owned it before me had one installed and I avoided using it and it really didn't work anyways. One time I just figured that I would try the alarm fob out after going to the store up the street. Before this the car started right up, but when I used the fob, went into the store, and came back out it wouldn't start. So would this cause the car to not start on its own? I cut the connections going to the battery, but maybe the alarm is still affecting the car? If so, any tips on removing the alarm system?

juwan_john

And by still affecting the car I mean that it appears to be connected along the ignition switch underneath the dash.

juwan_john

SOLVED!!!!

It was the aftermarket alarm. When I cut the wires from the battery it wasn't supplying power to the alarm brain anymore, which was spliced into the starter wires on the ignition switch. I cut that out and reconnected the original starter connection and started right up!

Mucho appreciation from you guys for giving input and advice. Glad to know I was welcomed to the forum so warmly.

Charchee, definitely let me know if you need advice on the starter. It looks like a pain, but with a couple of the right tools it's a pretty simple job.