Need some tech help from the YT computer people.
05-21-2011, 09:20 AM
#1
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Need some tech help from the YT computer people.
I got my laptop last year off eBay, used but refurbished. It's a Panasonic CF-29 Toughbook with a 320GB hard drive and 1.5GB of RAM, running Windows 7. The machine works great, but ever since I first got it, I've had issues with video playback. All the videos I have saved lag badly, and the longer I let them play, the worse they get. Youtube and other web-based players work fine.
I finally got tired of the problem and had a computer-geek friend look at it. He checked the drivers to make sure they are up to date, and then suggested it might be the video card, but he wasn't sure. He also said 1.5GB of RAM should be plenty to watch videos.
So before jumping off half-cocked, I thought I'd post the question to the Yotatech hackers and see what you think! Do the symptoms I described sound like a video card issue? If so, where should I start in looking for a replacement?
Sorry if these questions are newbie or too general; I truly know nothing about computers.
Thanks!
I finally got tired of the problem and had a computer-geek friend look at it. He checked the drivers to make sure they are up to date, and then suggested it might be the video card, but he wasn't sure. He also said 1.5GB of RAM should be plenty to watch videos.
So before jumping off half-cocked, I thought I'd post the question to the Yotatech hackers and see what you think! Do the symptoms I described sound like a video card issue? If so, where should I start in looking for a replacement?
Sorry if these questions are newbie or too general; I truly know nothing about computers.
Thanks!
05-21-2011, 10:01 AM
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Might just be your video playback software. Probably Windows Media player or some sort of Windows built in software? Try something different like: the very simple, fast, and FREE VLC (open source - I believe).
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
Works with nearly any format. Good luck.
Dale
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
Works with nearly any format. Good luck.
Dale
05-21-2011, 10:22 AM
#3
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Forgot to mention, my friend also tried downloading Winamp Media Player, but it didn't fix the problem. When I use Winamp I only get audio, no video.
I also downloaded DiVX player to try on a .MKV file. I got the same lag as I usually do.
I also downloaded DiVX player to try on a .MKV file. I got the same lag as I usually do.
05-21-2011, 10:49 AM
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I just 'Googled' ".mkv" First link gives Lots of info about the video codec file type ".mkv". (http://www.afterdawn.com/guides/arch...o_play_mkv.cfm) They show steps to view this file type with VLC. It also goes on to explain so much more than I was willing to read.
Cheers
Cheers
05-21-2011, 05:24 PM
#5
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DivX plays .MKV files. I ended up watching the movie on the family desktop using DivX player, so that's not the issue.
EDIT: I just tried VLC. The videos are at least watchable with VLC, so that's an improvement, but are really grainy and still lag a bit. Any way to turn up the quality, or is it a video card issue?
Thanks for the help!
EDIT: I just tried VLC. The videos are at least watchable with VLC, so that's an improvement, but are really grainy and still lag a bit. Any way to turn up the quality, or is it a video card issue?
Thanks for the help!
Last edited by Zelephant; 05-21-2011 at 05:54 PM.
05-21-2011, 07:15 PM
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It *might* be a video card issue. I briefly looked up your laptop specs from the manufacturer. . . . you certainly are above the minimum specs for Windows 7, 32 bit. . . . but only a little bit. That, and this laptop has older video components in it. I would be inclined to think that you *might* get better video playback and overall performance if you reinstalled the original Windows XP operating system.
Maybe just do a shutdown and start up and then go straight to VLC and watch the video. See if it improves the playback. Some software still use system resources even after you 'X' them.
But, maybe somebody else will chime in with better/more information.
Maybe just do a shutdown and start up and then go straight to VLC and watch the video. See if it improves the playback. Some software still use system resources even after you 'X' them.
But, maybe somebody else will chime in with better/more information.
05-22-2011, 07:43 AM
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Cant think of anything else but a simple lack of resources or a crummy video card. You bought it off ebay, which is by no means a safe place to buy a computer. Many people recommend to NEVER buy a machine off of ebay.
If it came with an install disk of windows, I HIGHLY recommend you do a fresh install of win7 before you do any more work on it. Alot of computers come with bloatware that hogs memory, making everything you do slower. Not to mention it is possible you could have some preinstalled stuff that is potentially dangerous. I would try a clean install first. Then a video card.
If it came with an install disk of windows, I HIGHLY recommend you do a fresh install of win7 before you do any more work on it. Alot of computers come with bloatware that hogs memory, making everything you do slower. Not to mention it is possible you could have some preinstalled stuff that is potentially dangerous. I would try a clean install first. Then a video card.
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05-22-2011, 05:18 PM
#8
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Though the machine came with Windows 7 installed, the original disk was was not included. I've had people tell me that the OS is probably not genuine, pirated, etc., but at this point, there's not much I can do, and the machine works great aside from the video issue. All I really use it for is internet and word processing.
BTW, can you explain "bloatware"? Is there a way to remove it without uninstalling the OS?
BTW, can you explain "bloatware"? Is there a way to remove it without uninstalling the OS?
05-23-2011, 05:23 PM
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"Bloatware" is generally all of the free trials, doodads, and other software filigree that manufacturers add to a new machine. These typically include things like free Norton trials, MS Office, AOL, "Try our free games," "OEM utility that is utterly useless," etc.
These bits of software eat up lots of resource, sometimes to the point where a machine might be marketed as being more than capable of doing something finds itself barely capable of keeping up. This is similar to having a machine heavily infected with all sorts of malware but bloatware in itself is generally not malicious (unless it says Norton).
One way of getting rid of bloatware is to go into the control panel and uninstall any software that you don't need, want, or recognize (if it says hotfix leave it there). Please understand though that sometimes OEMs give the utilities your laptop actually needs to function properly goofball names and that you should be careful to make sure you don't remove these unless you want to reinstall them later. Once you have done this you'll have a system that runs a lot better but using something like ccleaner to cleanup the registry is also a good idea.
I do not think your issue is bloatware though, unless that install of Win 7 is the original OS for the laptop or the install was made with a disk supplied by the OEM. Bloatware tends to be extra stuff that would not normally appear on a fresh retail install, pirated or otherwise. Some pirated versions of Windows 7 are customized to install extra stuff but generally speaking that's usually the result of some guy who wants to not have to install Firefox every time he reinstalls his OS. Of course if your system was "refurbished" by Razaak's Eastern Computer Emporium then it is likely that it has not only a pirated OS but lots of other random crap too.
On the machine itself somewhere there should be a Certificate of Authenticity from Microsoft. That will state the version of Windows that came on the machine and it should also give the license key. If it's not there, you have a couple options: buy a copy of Win 7 and install it fresh, this would be a fresh retail install with 0 bloatware; try to salvage your existing install by removing anything causing issues and tweaking performance. If it is there, reinstall the OS that came with it (you may have to download an OEM version of the install media, this is NOT pirating as you legitimately hold a license key which is what Microsoft actually charges money for, a RETAIL dvd might work with an OEM key but I have not tried this with newer version of Windows) and use that or obtain an upgrade copy of Win 7 and do that to avoid some extra cost (and add some hassle if you ever need to reinstall).
One thing I'd like you to try before doing anything else though is to go to the System Properties window (right-click Computer -> Properties). In there select "Advanced System Settings" from the left side menu and then click on the Advanced tab. On that tab there are some options, click the [settings] button inside Performance (it should be the top) and then select the "Adjust for Best Performance" radial. Apply these changes and when it's done locking up your system exit out of the dialogue boxes. Actually, while you are there and if you want too, click [settings] beside Startup and Recovery and under System Failure uncheck "Automatically Restart" if you want it to not auto-restart on BSoD so you can actually read what the error-message is. Of course you might just want to leave this alone if you have no interest in debugging BSoDs. Anyways, after adjusting for best performance, watch a video using either VLC or MPC/MPCHC and report back.
Btw, MKVs are container files, they are in a sense an uncompressed "archive" that holds the video, audio, and other data such as subtitles, they "contain" the data regardless of it's encoding. You can think of them as similar to an AVI, MP4, or ASF. It's an open standard and because of that you'd think it'd have the widest acceptance, however it is easily the container format that causes the most problems for some unknown reason. Codec does not matter, you could have an MKV that uses x-encoding and an MKV that uses y-encoding and if your computer can only decode y you can only watch one of the MKVs.
I'd also suggest getting the Combined Community Codec Pack, this should help solve many issues with whether or not something will play at all.
These bits of software eat up lots of resource, sometimes to the point where a machine might be marketed as being more than capable of doing something finds itself barely capable of keeping up. This is similar to having a machine heavily infected with all sorts of malware but bloatware in itself is generally not malicious (unless it says Norton).
One way of getting rid of bloatware is to go into the control panel and uninstall any software that you don't need, want, or recognize (if it says hotfix leave it there). Please understand though that sometimes OEMs give the utilities your laptop actually needs to function properly goofball names and that you should be careful to make sure you don't remove these unless you want to reinstall them later. Once you have done this you'll have a system that runs a lot better but using something like ccleaner to cleanup the registry is also a good idea.
I do not think your issue is bloatware though, unless that install of Win 7 is the original OS for the laptop or the install was made with a disk supplied by the OEM. Bloatware tends to be extra stuff that would not normally appear on a fresh retail install, pirated or otherwise. Some pirated versions of Windows 7 are customized to install extra stuff but generally speaking that's usually the result of some guy who wants to not have to install Firefox every time he reinstalls his OS. Of course if your system was "refurbished" by Razaak's Eastern Computer Emporium then it is likely that it has not only a pirated OS but lots of other random crap too.
On the machine itself somewhere there should be a Certificate of Authenticity from Microsoft. That will state the version of Windows that came on the machine and it should also give the license key. If it's not there, you have a couple options: buy a copy of Win 7 and install it fresh, this would be a fresh retail install with 0 bloatware; try to salvage your existing install by removing anything causing issues and tweaking performance. If it is there, reinstall the OS that came with it (you may have to download an OEM version of the install media, this is NOT pirating as you legitimately hold a license key which is what Microsoft actually charges money for, a RETAIL dvd might work with an OEM key but I have not tried this with newer version of Windows) and use that or obtain an upgrade copy of Win 7 and do that to avoid some extra cost (and add some hassle if you ever need to reinstall).
One thing I'd like you to try before doing anything else though is to go to the System Properties window (right-click Computer -> Properties). In there select "Advanced System Settings" from the left side menu and then click on the Advanced tab. On that tab there are some options, click the [settings] button inside Performance (it should be the top) and then select the "Adjust for Best Performance" radial. Apply these changes and when it's done locking up your system exit out of the dialogue boxes. Actually, while you are there and if you want too, click [settings] beside Startup and Recovery and under System Failure uncheck "Automatically Restart" if you want it to not auto-restart on BSoD so you can actually read what the error-message is. Of course you might just want to leave this alone if you have no interest in debugging BSoDs. Anyways, after adjusting for best performance, watch a video using either VLC or MPC/MPCHC and report back.
Btw, MKVs are container files, they are in a sense an uncompressed "archive" that holds the video, audio, and other data such as subtitles, they "contain" the data regardless of it's encoding. You can think of them as similar to an AVI, MP4, or ASF. It's an open standard and because of that you'd think it'd have the widest acceptance, however it is easily the container format that causes the most problems for some unknown reason. Codec does not matter, you could have an MKV that uses x-encoding and an MKV that uses y-encoding and if your computer can only decode y you can only watch one of the MKVs.
I'd also suggest getting the Combined Community Codec Pack, this should help solve many issues with whether or not something will play at all.
Last edited by Magnusian; 05-23-2011 at 05:41 PM.
05-24-2011, 10:41 AM
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First, thank you very much for taking the time to type all that out. I really appreciate it!
I went into the program files and deleted some junk I don't use. I don't know how much of a difference it made, but at least I have more harddrive space. I'll probably be downloading Ccleaner soon while I'm at it.
Where exactly should I look for the COA? Just below the keyboard, there's a badge that says "Designed for Microsoft Windows XP", but there's no license key. I knew Win 7 wasn't the original OS when I bought it; I considered it an upgrade.
That said, if worse comes to worse, I could always use the XP OS we installed on the family PC many moons ago. That disk must be around somewhere.
Did this; made my laptop look like the '90s. Watched a video, no change in quality, so I switched it back.
Downloaded this, and I think it did help some 
! Still not the quality I have on the desktop, but definitely watchable.
"Bloatware" is generally all of the free trials, doodads, and other software filigree that manufacturers add to a new machine. These typically include things like free Norton trials, MS Office, AOL, "Try our free games," "OEM utility that is utterly useless," etc.
These bits of software eat up lots of resource, sometimes to the point where a machine might be marketed as being more than capable of doing something finds itself barely capable of keeping up. This is similar to having a machine heavily infected with all sorts of malware but bloatware in itself is generally not malicious (unless it says Norton).
One way of getting rid of bloatware is to go into the control panel and uninstall any software that you don't need, want, or recognize (if it says hotfix leave it there). Please understand though that sometimes OEMs give the utilities your laptop actually needs to function properly goofball names and that you should be careful to make sure you don't remove these unless you want to reinstall them later. Once you have done this you'll have a system that runs a lot better but using something like ccleaner to cleanup the registry is also a good idea.
These bits of software eat up lots of resource, sometimes to the point where a machine might be marketed as being more than capable of doing something finds itself barely capable of keeping up. This is similar to having a machine heavily infected with all sorts of malware but bloatware in itself is generally not malicious (unless it says Norton).
One way of getting rid of bloatware is to go into the control panel and uninstall any software that you don't need, want, or recognize (if it says hotfix leave it there). Please understand though that sometimes OEMs give the utilities your laptop actually needs to function properly goofball names and that you should be careful to make sure you don't remove these unless you want to reinstall them later. Once you have done this you'll have a system that runs a lot better but using something like ccleaner to cleanup the registry is also a good idea.
On the machine itself somewhere there should be a Certificate of Authenticity from Microsoft. That will state the version of Windows that came on the machine and it should also give the license key. If it's not there, you have a couple options: buy a copy of Win 7 and install it fresh, this would be a fresh retail install with 0 bloatware; try to salvage your existing install by removing anything causing issues and tweaking performance. If it is there, reinstall the OS that came with it (you may have to download an OEM version of the install media, this is NOT pirating as you legitimately hold a license key which is what Microsoft actually charges money for, a RETAIL dvd might work with an OEM key but I have not tried this with newer version of Windows) and use that or obtain an upgrade copy of Win 7 and do that to avoid some extra cost (and add some hassle if you ever need to reinstall).
That said, if worse comes to worse, I could always use the XP OS we installed on the family PC many moons ago. That disk must be around somewhere.
One thing I'd like you to try before doing anything else though is to go to the System Properties window (right-click Computer -> Properties). In there select "Advanced System Settings" from the left side menu and then click on the Advanced tab. On that tab there are some options, click the [settings] button inside Performance (it should be the top) and then select the "Adjust for Best Performance" radial. Apply these changes and when it's done locking up your system exit out of the dialogue boxes. Actually, while you are there and if you want too, click [settings] beside Startup and Recovery and under System Failure uncheck "Automatically Restart" if you want it to not auto-restart on BSoD so you can actually read what the error-message is. Of course you might just want to leave this alone if you have no interest in debugging BSoDs. Anyways, after adjusting for best performance, watch a video using either VLC or MPC/MPCHC and report back.
! Still not the quality I have on the desktop, but definitely watchable.
05-24-2011, 11:37 AM
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If you cant get a fresh legal copy of win 7, then try the xp, it will likely solve your problem, but only for a short while... I usually end up wiping win xp evry 9-12 mos, and starting fresh...
Or... You could always try Ubuntu.... Its a FREE version of linux, widely supported, more user friendly than most linux distros.
Also... U could always Download and unlocked copy of win 7... but be careful if you go that route!
Or... You could always try Ubuntu.... Its a FREE version of linux, widely supported, more user friendly than most linux distros.
Also... U could always Download and unlocked copy of win 7... but be careful if you go that route!
05-25-2011, 06:29 AM
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make sure your not running and over amount of processes, go into task manger then to processes and make sure ur under around 60 more than that i say uve got alot of stuff running u dont need and that could be a problem, otherwise, make sure windows media player has all its updates and what not, see if win 7 has any updates all that stuff
05-25-2011, 09:16 AM
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Honestly, all of the things myself and others have mentioned will improve your machine's performance, but not being able to properly run any videos is a problem with either your codec, format of videos, or video card. If you can run everything else with no problems, then your system's performance should be fine, and the problem is directly related to your card or codec.
Can you find the video card and give us some details?
Can you find the video card and give us some details?
05-25-2011, 09:43 AM
#14
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Honestly, all of the things myself and others have mentioned will improve your machine's performance, but not being able to properly run any videos is a problem with either your codec, format of videos, or video card. If you can run everything else with no problems, then your system's performance should be fine, and the problem is directly related to your card or codec.
Can you find the video card and give us some details?
Can you find the video card and give us some details?
And what is codec
?
05-25-2011, 11:56 AM
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The Device Manager should tell you what video card you have. Goto System Properties and click on Device Manager, then look for Display Adapters (should be third from top). Under there it should give at least enough of a name for us to know what video chipset you use if not the specific card model. You can also right-click the device and bring up the Properties box for the card, go to the Details tab and select "Hardware Ids" from the drop-down. Copy and paste them here (right click->copy) and we can use them to find out what card you have.
e: The Windows COA is usually located on the underside of the machine for the majority of laptops. Most of them have the word MICROSOFT and/or the Windows Logo as holograms all over them.
e: The Windows COA is usually located on the underside of the machine for the majority of laptops. Most of them have the word MICROSOFT and/or the Windows Logo as holograms all over them.
Last edited by Magnusian; 05-25-2011 at 11:59 AM.
06-01-2011, 06:28 AM
#16
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Sorry for the late reply, had a busy holiday weekend.
Under "Display Adapters," it says "Standard VGA Graphics Adapter"
In the "Hardware IDs" of the "Details" tab in the "properties" box appear the following:
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_3582&SUBSYS_833810F7&REV_02
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_3582&SUBSYS_833810F7
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_3582&CC_030000
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_3582&CC_0300
It's all Greek to me, but may shed some light on the situation.
Also, I found the COA if I ever need it. Thanks!
Under "Display Adapters," it says "Standard VGA Graphics Adapter"
In the "Hardware IDs" of the "Details" tab in the "properties" box appear the following:
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_3582&SUBSYS_833810F7&REV_02
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_3582&SUBSYS_833810F7
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_3582&CC_030000
PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_3582&CC_0300
It's all Greek to me, but may shed some light on the situation.
Also, I found the COA if I ever need it. Thanks!
Last edited by Zelephant; 06-01-2011 at 06:32 AM.
06-01-2011, 06:46 AM
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Yep, I know what's wrong. You are using the generic VGA driver because there is no driver available from Intel that is compatible with your OS and graphics chipset. You have Intel 82852/82855 GM/GME graphics on that machine. This graphics chipset is totally unsupported in Vista and 7.
Whoever sold you the machine probably tossed pirated Win 7 on it so they could get more money for it than they would have by putting/leaving XP on it. Sorry man. 
I've been screwed buying laptops via Ebay before too and it can be frustrating because there is usually nothing you can do about it. I would suggest in the future to just get a cheap new machine and to avoid refurbs and auction sites entirely unless you are able to snipe a great deal on a brand-new machine. If you have budget constraints just browse around staples/office depot/office max/future shop/best buy/etc until you see one go on clearance. You can get a decent new system that can do what you want for well under $500 doing this. If you cannot afford a new system then nuke and pave with XP, you'll get video playback that doesn't stink because there's an actual driver for your graphics. It's unlikely you have install media, you will need to download (or order from Panasonic), an unmodified oem copy of the install dvd. It's not piracy if you are using legitimate licenses to activate the product.
Originally Posted by Intel
Intel® Extreme Graphics Drivers for the Intel® 82852G/82855 GM/GME graphics controller support the following operating systems:
Microsoft Windows XP* Professional/Home Edition
Windows XP* Tablet PC edition
Microsoft Windows 2000* Professional
Windows Me* (Millennium Edition)
Windows 98* SE (Second Edition)
Microsoft Windows NT* 4.0 Workstation (Service Pack 6 and later)
Linux*
OS/2 Warp* 3.0, Warp 4.0
Note Windows 7* is not supported.
Microsoft Windows XP* Professional/Home Edition
Windows XP* Tablet PC edition
Microsoft Windows 2000* Professional
Windows Me* (Millennium Edition)
Windows 98* SE (Second Edition)
Microsoft Windows NT* 4.0 Workstation (Service Pack 6 and later)
Linux*
OS/2 Warp* 3.0, Warp 4.0
Note Windows 7* is not supported.
Originally Posted by Intel
This applies to:
Intel® 82852/82855 Graphics Controller Family
End of Interactive Support Disclaimer
These products are no longer being manufactured by Intel. Additionally, Intel no longer provides interactive support for these products via telephone, e-mail, or chat, nor will Intel provide any future software updates to support new operating systems or improve compatibility with third party devices and software products.
Intel® 82852/82855 Graphics Controller Family
End of Interactive Support Disclaimer
These products are no longer being manufactured by Intel. Additionally, Intel no longer provides interactive support for these products via telephone, e-mail, or chat, nor will Intel provide any future software updates to support new operating systems or improve compatibility with third party devices and software products.
I've been screwed buying laptops via Ebay before too and it can be frustrating because there is usually nothing you can do about it. I would suggest in the future to just get a cheap new machine and to avoid refurbs and auction sites entirely unless you are able to snipe a great deal on a brand-new machine. If you have budget constraints just browse around staples/office depot/office max/future shop/best buy/etc until you see one go on clearance. You can get a decent new system that can do what you want for well under $500 doing this. If you cannot afford a new system then nuke and pave with XP, you'll get video playback that doesn't stink because there's an actual driver for your graphics. It's unlikely you have install media, you will need to download (or order from Panasonic), an unmodified oem copy of the install dvd. It's not piracy if you are using legitimate licenses to activate the product.
Last edited by Magnusian; 06-01-2011 at 12:02 PM.
06-01-2011, 04:47 PM
#18
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Well, thanks a million for the help anyway, Mag. I appreciate it.
So far as replacing the machine, that's out of the question. After using the Toughbook, I frankly am NOT gonna settle for anything else, and I ain't spending $2k on a new one. And honestly, the video issue isn't enough to motivate me to start from scratch with a fresh OS. Maybe someday if it really bugs me. Like I said, it's watchable now, just not great quality, and most videos I watch are online.
Thanks for everyone's help!
So far as replacing the machine, that's out of the question. After using the Toughbook, I frankly am NOT gonna settle for anything else, and I ain't spending $2k on a new one. And honestly, the video issue isn't enough to motivate me to start from scratch with a fresh OS. Maybe someday if it really bugs me. Like I said, it's watchable now, just not great quality, and most videos I watch are online.
Thanks for everyone's help!
06-14-2011, 08:15 AM
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if you have some cash and can find some deals, add some more memory to it and change the graphics card(if you can). I imagine that the most memory it will take is 4 gb's so you could find you 2x2gb sticks or probably ddr2 dimm memory and then look for a video card.
it doesn't cost some money but a lot of times, it will save the computer and give it more life if you are not ready to get rid of it. sometimes though, computers just are not worth messing with or was bad from the factory. my gf's mom bought a dell right after vista came out and that computer was bad. it just met vista specs so it processed so slow. i added more memory to it and put xp back on it and it is a lot better computer now but still not the greatests!
it doesn't cost some money but a lot of times, it will save the computer and give it more life if you are not ready to get rid of it. sometimes though, computers just are not worth messing with or was bad from the factory. my gf's mom bought a dell right after vista came out and that computer was bad. it just met vista specs so it processed so slow. i added more memory to it and put xp back on it and it is a lot better computer now but still not the greatests!
06-14-2011, 09:02 AM
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snow, the issue is that most of the time manufacturers set things so that the bios only supports the hardware that they want for the machine. If he can change video cards it would have to be to one that would have found itself in the same model else he will have system instability problems. Assuming there was a variant of his laptop that supports Vista/7 he -might- be able to harvest the video card out of one for his machine and get it to work if the mobo and bios are otherwise the same.
I had a thinkpad I bought off ebay once, t22 that had a cpu from a t23 in it and was nothing but trouble because the bios would only accept one of the three cpus used with the t22. I could use the machine for anywhere between 5 minutes and 2 hours before a blue-screen or kernel panic depending on OS. Ended up offloading it.
I had a thinkpad I bought off ebay once, t22 that had a cpu from a t23 in it and was nothing but trouble because the bios would only accept one of the three cpus used with the t22. I could use the machine for anywhere between 5 minutes and 2 hours before a blue-screen or kernel panic depending on OS. Ended up offloading it.
