Needs suggestions, advice on PLASMA tv

95ToyotaPU007 · 11-10-2006, 07:36 PM

Okay, I'm ready for a bigger tv.

I first considered a 32in Phillips LCD. Looks great but my other half doesnt like the picture fade from viewing it from the side.

She just doesn't like the rear projection sets either, even the ones with DLP. So those are out of the question due to picture fade.

So I told her the plasmas don't do that. They still look real decent from the side. So now we're considering a 42" HP or 42" JVC. They both look great and are in a price range I can afford.

So my questions are:

1.How much should I worry about burn in from corner station logos (ESPN, CBS, etc.)
2. Dead or stuck pixels
3. Screen lifetime

I plan on buying the extended warranties when I purchase one.

Thanks in advance.

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89macrunner · 11-10-2006, 08:40 PM

burn-in isnt much of a problem anymore with current technology plasmas. Especially if you go with one that has rotating picture technology i.e. Pioneer. the HP and JVC plasmas are nice. I'm a BIG fan of pioneers. they are more expensive but are amazing tv's. I also like panasonic TV's as well. Whichever one you get make sure it has atleast two HDMI inputs.

91TPU · 11-10-2006, 09:15 PM

my friends parents just bought two plasmas, jvc if i remember correctly, and they are extremely dissatisfyed with them, they picture quality is outstanding, but they emit heat, more then you would think lol, the tv is a real pita to get setup, and the first couple days they had issues with what the tech said "overheating". i dunno, we have three lcds at my house, two small 15 inchers, and one larger one, cant remember the size, and i love em, never had any problems, never any complaints, and thier safe with kids cuz if thier on all day it cant hurt them.

reggie 00 · 11-10-2006, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95ToyotaPU007

Okay, I'm ready for a bigger TV.

They both look great and are in a price range I can afford.

So my questions are:

1.How much should I worry about burn in from corner station logos (ESPN, CBS, etc.)
2. Dead or stuck pixels
3. Screen lifetime

I plan on buying the extended warranties when I purchase one.

Thanks in advance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 89macrunner

burn-in isn't much of a problem anymore with current technology plasmas. Especially if you go with one that has rotating picture technology
Whichever one you get make sure it has at least two HDMI inputs.

What is the price range you are looking at?

If you a concerned with burn in you need to get a display with what the refer to as pixel shift.

no way around dead pixels, just make sure you purchase a quality display form a reputable dealer in case you have to return it for any problem. This is but 1 reason we steer people away for buying displays on the Internet. When we pick up displays for jobs they get thoroughly inspected before we take possession and if we find defects upon power up We return it and get a new one for the customer.

Screen lifetime is about the same for all of them, somewhere in the 8hrs a day for 20 yrs, deal.

DO NOT BUY DISPLAY MODEL DISPLAYS FROM RETAILERS LIKE BEST BUY!!!!
They have been running all day and all night for quite a while before they give it to you for that great low price.

If you already have your surround sound system set up run with an industrial display, they look cleaner because they do not come with speakers.

only draw back to industrial is sometimes you need to get add in cards for your component hook up.

Not to big of a worry about the 2 HDMI inputs, most better Av Receivers have the capabilities to switch HDMI, which allows you to only have to run 1 HDMI cable to the display and use shorter cheaper ones from the equipment to the receiver.

Make sure you have a surround sound set up. HD TV/ Movies etc are made /broadcast in 5.1. So if you are going to pay for it make sure you are getting all that you pay for. sound and picture.

If you get me an idea of your budget and display model numbers you are looking at i can run them by the specifier at my business on Wednesday when he gets back from vacation. See what he thinks will work for ya. ( he keeps more up to date than i do)

Own a home theater/ low voltage company in the Bay Area.

Remember to keep in mind all the little things, IE mounts, cables, set up.

And one last thing remember the display needs to look good viewing Standard Def shows too. This is really important, seeing most of your TV viewing will not be in the nicer High Def resolutions. All displays generally look pretty good in High Def, put some regular ol TV on to make a decision.

sorry so long.

95ToyotaPU007 · 11-11-2006, 01:01 AM

Thanks for the quick replies.

My budget for the TV is $1600.

These are the models I'm considering.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1140392418573

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1134703131623

I guess the second one was a Panasonic not a JVC.

I looked on both models and it appears they do not have the pixel shift technology mentioned.

After a few months I plan on getting a HTIB either from Sony or Pioneer. I plan on mostly watching DVDs and football games on the tv. I don't really watch anything else.

reggie 00 · 11-11-2006, 11:25 AM

We have had good luck with this display.
http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/P...PS4253XXAA.asp

It is in your price range.

One thing to consider is finding a custom installer in your area. Best buy is not really know for always doing the best job and defiantly not for doing it the cheapest. Search around and find a custom installer ( like me) but in your area. The advantage to this is we try to keep up to date as much as possible with the ever changing market and technologies.

The larger ones will be listed on CEDIA website, smaller one like me run solely on word of mouth , we make most our nut doing Custom homes in the 1-4 mil range and theaters for a few interior designers, as well as referrals from customers. So it might take some digging but it will be worth the effort in the long run. We have done quite a few Large retail store redo's.

Generally we will match prices with Best buy and other local retailers.

There is also the HTIB, i would not waste the money really. For a few dollars more a Denon receiver and DVD player and a set of speakers can be had. Which will provide you with much better sound quality and the option to upgrade to bigger and better things in the future. We also try to steer people away from multi use items like DVD players in TVs, and receivers that have DVD players. If one of them break it basically makes the other useless. and you end up going out to get a stand alone device anyways

If you hook up with a custom installer they should be able to get you the Display you want , and work with you in the future for all your other needs.

We have quite a few customers who just started out with the Display and then progressed into the rest of the home theater as their budgets allowed.

Speaking about budgets is this display going on the wall or are you going to use the stand and a piece of furniture for the equipment underneath.

and don't skimp out on cables. be prepared to spend 10-15% of the display cost on cabling. If you want you can let me know what you need and we can ship them out. We generally use Pro Flex cables, really good quality without the outrageous prices you find in retail.

norcalsvx · 11-11-2006, 12:52 PM

i have the JVC and i love it no problems so far

BT17R · 11-11-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reggie 00

And one last thing remember the display needs to look good viewing Standard Def shows too. This is really important, seeing most of your TV viewing will not be in the nicer High Def resolutions. All displays generally look pretty good in High Def, put some regular ol TV on to make a decision.

That's my concern. I'm getting a 50" before Christmas but will mainly be watching standard broadcast off the dish for now.

The two front-runners are:

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...del=TH-50PH9UK

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs...odel=TH-50PX6U

Is one better than another with standard def? Is there another in that price range I shoudl consider? How important is 1080p? TIA...

reggie 00 · 11-11-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BT17R

That's my concern. I'm getting a 50" before Christmas but will mainly be watching standard broadcast off the dish for now.

The two front-runners are:

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...del=TH-50PH9UK

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs...odel=TH-50PX6U

Is one better than another with standard def? Is there another in that price range I should consider? How important is 1080p? TIA...

We have had really good luck with the Panasonic displays. Both the industrial and regular line. Keep in mind with most industrial displays you need to get an add on card for some inputs, IE HDMI, or more than 1 RGB.

Others we seem to have no problems with around the same range would be:
Samsung, Sharps AQUOS LCDs (keep in mind Sharp has like 3 different lines The AQUOS is the upper one), Pioneer industrial. The Pioneer is a little more, looked really good, but needed an add on card for HDMI.

1080p is a big deal but don't get hung up on it. The picture will still look amazing using 720p. The key factor is the "p". "p" is for progressive scan. "i" is for interlace scan. in a interlace display it will do all the odd pixels then go back and do all the even ones. What this does to the picture when you are seeing a slow frame rate scene or when paused ect is make the object have jagged edges.

Progressive scan displays do all the pixels odd and even at once, which eliminates the jagged edge syndrome.

If the display is not 1080p then we run them 720p. If you can afford it go 1080p, but like i stated in previous replies here remember to budget all the little things and surround sound too.

When you go out to look at displays and this is another reason to really search out a good custom installer, please keep in mind that some establishments will screw around with the display setting to influence your opinion on particular sets. We go in to the Big retailers as often as possible to check things out. We have stopped and checked the settings on more than 1 display to find things no where near where they should have been. Even out of the box your new display can and should be tweaked. The are display DVDs out there that you can use to adjust you displays. They are not that expensive for what they provide.

Also remember that the lighting conditions are not always optimal , and that the feed that you are watching is being shared across a multiple number of TVs.

If possible bring in a favorite DVD (480p) and ask to see it in action, then ask to see a local news channel (non hd broadcast). If they can not or wont do this, they can not receive your money. If a custom installer can not provide this make him accountable to standards. If we can not get a customer to a distributor to show them a display we don't have, we guarantee they will like the display or we will take it back and get them what they want.

BT17R · 11-11-2006, 02:42 PM

Thanks for the clear (!) response, much appreciated.

95ToyotaPU007 · 11-11-2006, 09:15 PM

I will use the included stand and place it atop a console designed for tvs. My curent set up has all monster cables so I know that cabling is real important.

I agree with not going with the HTIB but when I price all my audio equipment together it gets real scary. Harmon Kardon receiver and Klipsh speakers and subwoofer.

Thanks for all your help. I will definitely do the research on this equipment.

Whitey13 · 11-12-2006, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95ToyotaPU007

Thanks for the quick replies.

My budget for the TV is $1600.

When considering TV's within your budget, don't forget that the service plan will run you an extra couple hundred bucks.

BT17R · 11-12-2006, 08:36 PM

reggie, I came across this Panny at Costco. It's their industrial grade monitor about $1K under MSRP with the $100 rebate and includes S&H plus a free 5 year extended warranty through Panny. Looks good on paper, will fit in the hole in the wall currently, and will pump through my TiVo via S-VHS and home theatre audio and 1080p DVD player. Any experience with this particular unit? TIA...

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...opnav=&browse=

X-AWDriver · 11-13-2006, 06:01 AM

I've read a few things where plasmas lifespan due to heat emmination can be only 6-8 years but maybe new ones are improving.

PirateFins · 11-13-2006, 12:29 PM

I'm also in the market for a 50" plasma for my newly finished basement. I've done alot of looking and reading and this is the model I've decided on. http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsu...oductDetail.do

Reggie got any comments on it since you seem to know about them. I did what you suggeted while I was in the store and looked at the picture quality with different broadcast and was quite impressed. I can also pick it up at Sam's club for $2193.00 + $200 (3yr service). That has been the best price so far without getting it off of the net. Black Friday sales are comming so maybe I can pick it up cheaper then.

gilby4runner · 11-16-2006, 01:26 PM

Opened my big mouth and told my brother in law what i would take for our old big screen. He wants it this weekend. We are building a new house and my wife thinks the old one wouldnt look good in our new house..... Good for me but bad for the wallet. (There goes my new wheels) 50" is as big as we would go. Looked at DLP, LCD, and Plasma. Any suggestions? I liked the DLP but the plasma looked amazing... With so many in the show room i was dizzy when we left. Anyone have a DLP?

BT17R · 11-16-2006, 01:54 PM

I got this one:

http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/p...h42px600u.html

Reviewed here:

http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/p...0u-review.html

It came to $1,450 net new in box (tax free) from Video Only with 110% price protection through 1/25/07. They even gave me $20 for gas and a $200 credit for installing it myself. I did the ISF calibrations from plasmatvbuyingguide.com that changed it from default D10000K+ to D6650K. It looks terrific right off the dish. Good thing, antennas won't work in my area. For my typical viewing distance of 8'-12', it's just about right. Even the built in 31W audio w/sub sounds good enough to not have to fire up the home theatre all the time. Smaller than the hoped for 50", but also a much smaller wallet hit. I hoped to future proof the investment a bit with dual HDMI, CableCard and PC inputs.

85badger · 11-16-2006, 02:00 PM

For those out there looking for a Plasma, I've had an LG 42" for 2 years, picure is awesome and I would suggest buying from a reputatable local mom and pop shop for these high priced items. IMHO

PirateFins · 11-16-2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilby4runner

Opened my big mouth and told my brother in law what i would take for our old big screen. He wants it this weekend. We are building a new house and my wife thinks the old one wouldnt look good in our new house..... Good for me but bad for the wallet. (There goes my new wheels) 50" is as big as we would go. Looked at DLP, LCD, and Plasma. Any suggestions? I liked the DLP but the plasma looked amazing... With so many in the show room i was dizzy when we left. Anyone have a DLP?

I've looked at the DLP's and the picture is nice if you are viewing it straight on. Once you start to try and look at them from an angle the picture is just blahh. Most of the plasmas and LCD TV's are now being made to view up to a 170* angle.

reggie 00 · 11-16-2006, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BT17R

reggie, I came across this Panny at Costco. It's their industrial grade monitor about $1K under MSRP with the $100 rebate and includes S&H plus a free 5 year extended warranty through Panny. Looks good on paper, will fit in the hole in the wall currently, and will pump through my TiVo via S-VHS and home theatre audio and 1080p DVD player. Any experience with this particular unit? TIA...

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...opnav=&browse=

Good set. We have used a few of them and their 42" brethren. Be aware that it does not have HDMI, you will have to get an adder card for it if you want HDMI cost is going to run 200-300. You will also need BNC-RCA adapters the Display is BNC, so you need the male BNC to Female RCA.

Its a really good price. My specifier is going to hit the roof when he sees it @ Costco.

CJM · 11-16-2006, 10:22 PM

I worked in a store that sold both plasma and lcd, lcd gets fade and dead pixels and plasma eventually burns out. For the price they should last for 25+ years, your lucky if you get 5-7 before something happens.

In my honest opinon I prefer my old sony wega trinitron 42" flatscreen. It maybe heavy but it wont be burnt out in 5-7 years.

I am not knocking you guys for buying them, but for the money they should last longer.

BT17R · 11-16-2006, 10:26 PM

Thanks reggie, but I got another one (third post above yours).

reggie 00 · 11-16-2006, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PirateFins

I'm also in the market for a 50" plasma for my newly finished basement. I've done alot of looking and reading and this is the model I've decided on. http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsu...oductDetail.do

Reggie got any comments on it since you seem to know about them. I did what you suggeted while I was in the store and looked at the picture quality with different broadcast and was quite impressed. I can also pick it up at Sam's club for $2193.00 + $200 (3yr service). That has been the best price so far without getting it off of the net. Black Friday sales are comming so maybe I can pick it up cheaper then.

Just put in a 42" one yesterday. We like the Samsung displays. They have a pretty good picture. We have no problem using them in our customers theaters. The bang for the buck ratio is really good.

Watch the model numbers when you go to places like Sams and Costco, sometimes they have special models just for them.

Second thing be very careful getting these of the net. plenty of horror stories around about people getting displays that were suppose to be sold over seas (wrong power set up) Having damaged screens or housings, 25 work day shipping's, ect. As good as the deal is it is going to be a gamble on the savings. We inspect ever Display before it leaves the distributors WH, and if there are issues upon installation or later we handle it for the customer for the life of the manufacturers warranty.

I still stick to my earlier comments about finding a Custom installer. We try to match prices, another benefit is we will know whats what and head off any installation problems, and issues with set up and calibrations.

Usually in the long run you spend less money and you have a go to guy for future things.

reggie 00 · 11-16-2006, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BT17R

Thanks reggie, but I got another one (third post above yours).

Sorry
Big jobs are keeping us busy.

We use that set regularly too. Good prices and Quality.

reggie 00 · 11-16-2006, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilby4runner

Opened my big mouth and told my brother in law what i would take for our old big screen. He wants it this weekend. We are building a new house and my wife thinks the old one wouldnt look good in our new house..... Good for me but bad for the wallet. (There goes my new wheels) 50" is as big as we would go. Looked at DLP, LCD, and Plasma. Any suggestions? I liked the DLP but the plasma looked amazing... With so many in the show room i was dizzy when we left. Anyone have a DLP?

DLP does have its draw backs. But the big benefit will be screen size. You will be able to afford a much larger screen for less money than a flat panel. Samsung and Toshiba Cinema series are what we roll with when we start looking for DLP. It all boils down to what you like. and where is it going. I personally like the DLP sets we have used, and have designed my upgrade for the current set up to a 61" DLP.

Every display out there has advantages and drawbacks. CRTs are heavy and dated. Plasmas burn out, LCDs get dead pixels, DLP don't look good from the side. But, No display can reproduce blacks as well as the old CRT tube. Plasmas produce sharp pictures, LCDs can be used with game consoles/computers. DLPs use a replaceable lamp.

Choices are staggering. If you seem overwhelmed, find a Custom Installer, let them worry about pleasing you.

11-10-2006, 08:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
89macrunner Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 2,062	burn-in isnt much of a problem anymore with current technology plasmas. Especially if you go with one that has rotating picture technology i.e. Pioneer. the HP and JVC plasmas are nice. I'm a BIG fan of pioneers. they are more expensive but are amazing tv's. I also like panasonic TV's as well. Whichever one you get make sure it has atleast two HDMI inputs. __________________ Daily Driver: 2007 Windsor "The Hour" Fixed Gear 250 miles Crouch Rocket 2005 Felt F80 1100mi (purchased new in Jan 2008) 2006 Mazda3 GT 2000 TRD Tacoma..Bought back and crushed 1988 4Runner SR5 V6 5 speed..sold

11-11-2006, 01:01 AM	#5 (permalink)
95ToyotaPU007 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 905	Thanks for the quick replies. My budget for the TV is $1600. These are the models I'm considering. http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1140392418573 http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1134703131623 I guess the second one was a Panasonic not a JVC. I looked on both models and it appears they do not have the pixel shift technology mentioned. After a few months I plan on getting a HTIB either from Sony or Pioneer. I plan on mostly watching DVDs and football games on the tv. I don't really watch anything else. __________________ '95 PU Ext. cab, 4wd OEM 3.0L with spark delivered by OEM Ignition 348,xxx miles, on sixth set of tires sittin' on OEM wheels '04 Silver Corolla S, DVD head unit going in soon '85 F-250 351W H.O. 401,000 miles, first 351W dead at 367,xxx miles, Hedman headers, flowmaster exhaust, $1200 audio system, Alpine Alarm

11-11-2006, 12:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
norcalsvx Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Alpine--GRASS valley, CA Posts: 2,132	i have the JVC and i love it no problems so far __________________ 1994 toy 22re- http://www.yotatech.com/f86/nocalsvx-s-94-toy-104593/ 2006 Subaru Forester XT -some mods/awd 5spd 1994 Subaru SVX- hwy runner 84 RX7- drag car build

11-11-2006, 02:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
BT17R Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Da Gorge, Oregon Posts: 5,673	Thanks for the clear (!) response, much appreciated. __________________ '07 FJ Cruiser TRD SE 6M/T

11-11-2006, 09:15 PM	#11 (permalink)
95ToyotaPU007 Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 905	I will use the included stand and place it atop a console designed for tvs. My curent set up has all monster cables so I know that cabling is real important. I agree with not going with the HTIB but when I price all my audio equipment together it gets real scary. Harmon Kardon receiver and Klipsh speakers and subwoofer. Thanks for all your help. I will definitely do the research on this equipment. __________________ '95 PU Ext. cab, 4wd OEM 3.0L with spark delivered by OEM Ignition 348,xxx miles, on sixth set of tires sittin' on OEM wheels '04 Silver Corolla S, DVD head unit going in soon '85 F-250 351W H.O. 401,000 miles, first 351W dead at 367,xxx miles, Hedman headers, flowmaster exhaust, $1200 audio system, Alpine Alarm

11-12-2006, 08:36 PM	#13 (permalink)
BT17R Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Da Gorge, Oregon Posts: 5,673	reggie, I came across this Panny at Costco. It's their industrial grade monitor about $1K under MSRP with the $100 rebate and includes S&H plus a free 5 year extended warranty through Panny. Looks good on paper, will fit in the hole in the wall currently, and will pump through my TiVo via S-VHS and home theatre audio and 1080p DVD player. Any experience with this particular unit? TIA... http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...opnav=&browse= __________________ '07 FJ Cruiser TRD SE 6M/T

11-13-2006, 06:01 AM	#14 (permalink)
X-AWDriver Contributing Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Littleton,CO Posts: 10,173	I've read a few things where plasmas lifespan due to heat emmination can be only 6-8 years but maybe new ones are improving. __________________ '99 4Runner Highlander 4wd E-locker,rear diff and deckplate mod * 265/75/16 Nitto TerraGrapplers * Yakima Load Warrior rack * clear corners/signals * Tacoma skidplate * Silverstar lamps/fogs Alpine CDA-9831,Bazooka EL Series 250w amp,MTX 10" sub

11-16-2006, 01:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
gilby4runner Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Dickson,Tennessee Posts: 1,549	Opened my big mouth and told my brother in law what i would take for our old big screen. He wants it this weekend. We are building a new house and my wife thinks the old one wouldnt look good in our new house..... Good for me but bad for the wallet. (There goes my new wheels) 50" is as big as we would go. Looked at DLP, LCD, and Plasma. Any suggestions? I liked the DLP but the plasma looked amazing... With so many in the show room i was dizzy when we left. Anyone have a DLP?

11-16-2006, 01:54 PM	#17 (permalink)
BT17R Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Da Gorge, Oregon Posts: 5,673	I got this one: http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/p...h42px600u.html Reviewed here: http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/p...0u-review.html It came to $1,450 net new in box (tax free) from Video Only with 110% price protection through 1/25/07. They even gave me $20 for gas and a $200 credit for installing it myself. I did the ISF calibrations from plasmatvbuyingguide.com that changed it from default D10000K+ to D6650K. It looks terrific right off the dish. Good thing, antennas won't work in my area. For my typical viewing distance of 8'-12', it's just about right. Even the built in 31W audio w/sub sounds good enough to not have to fire up the home theatre all the time. Smaller than the hoped for 50", but also a much smaller wallet hit. I hoped to future proof the investment a bit with dual HDMI, CableCard and PC inputs. __________________ '07 FJ Cruiser TRD SE 6M/T

11-16-2006, 02:00 PM	#18 (permalink)
85badger Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: wichita, ks Posts: 168	For those out there looking for a Plasma, I've had an LG 42" for 2 years, picure is awesome and I would suggest buying from a reputatable local mom and pop shop for these high priced items. IMHO

11-16-2006, 10:22 PM	#21 (permalink)
CJM Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Central NJ Posts: 4,561	I worked in a store that sold both plasma and lcd, lcd gets fade and dead pixels and plasma eventually burns out. For the price they should last for 25+ years, your lucky if you get 5-7 before something happens. In my honest opinon I prefer my old sony wega trinitron 42" flatscreen. It maybe heavy but it wont be burnt out in 5-7 years. I am not knocking you guys for buying them, but for the money they should last longer. __________________ 96' T100 SR5 4x4, ISR mod, Custom ABS snorkel, KC 57's Hella optilux el cheapo backup lights. Cobra 19III CB, Firestick 4ft antenna, Bilstein shocks. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

11-16-2006, 10:26 PM	#22 (permalink)
BT17R Contributing Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Da Gorge, Oregon Posts: 5,673	Thanks reggie, but I got another one (third post above yours). __________________ '07 FJ Cruiser TRD SE 6M/T

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