Ford 302/351 swap info - Page 2

ecchamberlin · 11-20-2005, 09:16 AM

If you are thinking Fuel injection I would stick with the 302 (5.0) becaue the EFI system is easy and parts are really available. Could easily push 350hp with out a turbo or sc'er. Keeps it really reliable. Just go with a 1990 or newer so you have a Mass Air engine instead of a Speed Density puter system. I hope you do this either way. Your Runner will be a monster.

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colsoncj · 11-20-2005, 09:49 AM

How much different are the fuel injection systems between the 351 and the 302? Which 302's where roller setups? IIRC there were no roller 351's right?

DudeBud · 11-20-2005, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenassco

well if you do 700hp reliable HP is not cheap, not matter how you slice it. I would recommend a 351W with forged internals, standalone an a single turbo kit. That will get you 700hp and still fit under a 2nd gen hood!

i was just kidding anyways but, it would be very fun at the least.

DudeBud · 11-20-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colsoncj

How much different are the fuel injection systems between the 351 and the 302? Which 302's where roller setups? IIRC there were no roller 351's right?

there are roller 351 blocks lightnings used them but any 351 block can be roller if you get a spider kit as for the injection other than the intakes being wider and the plentem being taller im not sure

JamesD · 11-20-2005, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colsoncj

How much different are the fuel injection systems between the 351 and the 302? Which 302's where roller setups? IIRC there were no roller 351's right?

I can answer this for you. The FI systems are the same. Roller 302's in trucks started somewhere in 88-89. Roller in 351's I think started in 94-95 in the trucks. Your best bet is a 302 for fitment reasons. The 351 is too wide. Here are some of the specs:

302= W 18 3/4" & 20 3/4" H
351W= W 21" & 23 3/4" H

Length depends on what front timing cover you use. On the average it is 27 1/2"

Height is measured from bottom of oil pan to top of valve covers.

I would stick with the 302 since more parts are out there for them. Some 351 parts with swap with 302 like, timing cover, cylinder heads(302 is 7/16" bolt holes, 351 are 1/2" but the 302's can be drilled or the 351's can be used on a 302 with a bushing adapter), upper intake if it is FI, cam, rockers, exhaust manifolds(depends on application) and some brackets for accessories.

What you can use is the HO motors since they have forged pistons, roller cam and dual roller timing chains. These are in Mustangs, Lincoln Mark 7 LSC's from 85-92. You probably want speed density system meaning non Mass air unless you are planning on putting cam or any other mods in the motor. For what you are doing, the HO speed density motor will work perfect for you. You will have plenty of torque, great idle and cool sounding exhaust. If you are interested in any parts, let me know. I have just about everything you need.

One thing more I forgot to mention. You can build one hell of a stroker motor for the 302/351's at a very reasonable price. How does 347 cubic inches sound just by using a 302 block? They would give you TONS of torque if for some odd reason you werent happy with just the SD HO unit.

James

JamesD · 11-20-2005, 11:33 AM

I just noticed you have an LS1 sitting in your driveway. There you go, problem solved!

James

colsoncj · 11-20-2005, 12:42 PM

LOL the ls1 is staying where its at

plus ive been told they wont fit, too big

what kind of numbers did the HO 302's put out HP wise... I'd like to be around the 250 to 350 RWP range when its all said and done. If figure around there i'll have the power to do what i want, but not soo much power i'll need huge beefy axles.

Thanks so far for all the help!!!!

JamesD · 11-20-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colsoncj

LOL the ls1 is staying where its at

plus ive been told they wont fit, too big

what kind of numbers did the HO 302's put out HP wise... I'd like to be around the 250 to 350 RWP range when its all said and done. If figure around there i'll have the power to do what i want, but not soo much power i'll need huge beefy axles.

Thanks so far for all the help!!!!

Its not the horsepower you need to worry about for what you are going to do. Now I have personally seen to the rear wheels in mustangs on stock and mostly stock setups with stick put 207-235 down depending on many variables. But what is nice is the broad torque range these put out for stock. Again 260-290ft. lb of torque on a dyno. The torque is like from 2500-5000rpms which is exactly what you need. If you want 250-300 to the wheels you can change the intake or put heads on it for roughly 250-300. This is assuming it is stick. Heck a mild cam can get you that but you need to convert to mass air. The above numbers are with mass air systems. Stock speed density vs stock mass air, the speed density makes more hp an torque do to the fact that the mass air meter is very small and it causes a restriction. PM me if you need anything.

James

JamesD · 11-20-2005, 12:54 PM

One other thing. You can use a SBC but the Ford fits better since it is narrower and the distributor is in the front so you dont have to worry about firewall issues.

James

colsoncj · 11-20-2005, 01:34 PM

Thanks James... the note about a SBC... thats one of the many reasons im goin Ford

kyle_22r · 11-20-2005, 08:05 PM

i was gonna post the cardomain site about the guy who booty fabbed a 390 into his toyota. then again, at least he had the cajones to give it a shot. i never would've imagined a big block would ever fit in a toy bay...

i thought about doing the 302 swap, the only thing that held me back is that i would never run an auto tranny, so you're limited with viable options: go with a huge NP435 4 speed, use an adapter and run a G or W tranny(bad idea imho, too weak) or spend a bunch of money on adapters and put in an NV3550.

the ford is a little bit longer than the chevy, but lacks the distributor clearance problem and the width is nice. then again, i've seen a 350 swap that looked like it fit great in a toyota, so i guess everything is possible. go for it!

colsoncj · 11-20-2005, 08:11 PM

you could use a T18 or T19..... good small trannies

DudeBud · 11-20-2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colsoncj

you could use a T18 or T19..... good small trannies

same size as np435... there are many trannys out there that can be used t-5 or t-56or a toploader would be nice or an nv4500 I have been thinking about switching out my t-18 for one for the overdrive.

colsoncj · 11-20-2005, 08:30 PM

I didnt think the t18/19s were that big... hmmmm

DudeBud · 11-20-2005, 09:29 PM

yeah take a look here http://classicbroncos.com/tranny-t18.shtml
almost forgot about a ZF tranny that would be another good one

leiniesred · 11-21-2005, 11:22 AM

351M in my 1980 Bronco was the huge C6 slushy.

I wouldn't bother with the m engine: And the 351C's just don't oil well. My Dad kept blowing them up in his mustang vintage racer. He went with the Ford 351W crate motor and makes more power than the Mustang can use on the track using PUMP GAS! "Rude, go get 10 gallons of gas." me: "sure, which color? Purple or blue?" Dad: "no no no, hop in the truck and run down to the Safeway grocery store and get the highest octane they have."

Beat 3 out of 4 Dodge Vipers that day.

tip: The Ford 351 is a few inches thinner than the chevy 350. You might be able to get the spark plugs out of it after the install.

colsoncj · 11-21-2005, 12:50 PM

what would be a good slush box to put behind it? (need OD).... the bohemoth e4od?

DudeBud · 11-21-2005, 01:22 PM

AOD if you want od... another good place for info and adapters

kyle_22r · 11-21-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leiniesred

351M in my 1980 Bronco was the huge C6 slushy.

I wouldn't bother with the m engine: And the 351C's just don't oil well. My Dad kept blowing them up in his mustang vintage racer. He went with the Ford 351W crate motor and makes more power than the Mustang can use on the track using PUMP GAS! "Rude, go get 10 gallons of gas." me: "sure, which color? Purple or blue?" Dad: "no no no, hop in the truck and run down to the Safeway grocery store and get the highest octane they have."

Beat 3 out of 4 Dodge Vipers that day.

tip: The Ford 351 is a few inches thinner than the chevy 350. You might be able to get the spark plugs out of it after the install.

i think for 4x4 purposes, a 351c isn't the greatest engine, and the 351M/400M are heavy and wide, for the most part being a detuned cleveland engine with a 460 bellhousing pattern. aside from the somewhat thin cylinder walls(just sleeve them if you have to) they can be built into a pretty nice engine for a fullsize truck, as there are now good aftermarket intakes, edelbrock makes heads for them, and any good cleveland timing set and cam will work. they got their bad reputation mainly from the fact that they came on the scene in '71, and the year later the smog regs came into effect and they were severely crippled with bad emissions controls, low compression, and a retarded timing set.

my dad had one in his '78 f150 4x4, you couldn't kill that thing. don't think it'd be the best choice for a toyota though. i think a 289 or 302 are good candidates, being a nice compromise between power and size.

kev93p-up · 11-23-2005, 03:05 PM

I built a 351W for a 67 mustang I had. It came out of a 69 Galaxie 500. I built it with the stock crank and rods, forged pistons, stock 4bbl heads reworked, decent dual pattern cam, Edelbrock intake, Holley 750 carb, and a Mallory Unilite ingition. With a 3.90 9" rear end, it ran high 12s and it was my daily driver. I loved the 351W (Windsor). There's no way a 351C (Cleveland, BTW you don't want one of these anyhow) would fit. It's too wide.

stevenassco · 11-29-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRV1

Stock speed density vs stock mass air, the speed density makes more hp an torque do to the fact that the mass air meter is very small and it causes a restriction. PM me if you need anything.

James

not nearly enought to make any difference though, and nothing that tuning cannot fix. Mass air is MUCH better in every sense, especially if you were to mod your motor at all (and who the heck leaves a 302 stock?). Carb would be easiest to swap, but if you like the benefits of FI, you will have to use a aftermarket ECU anyways, which you have choices of SD or mass air.

I dyno'd my stock 88 SD notch i had and then also before I turbo'd it on my buddies dynometer and actually the mass air made more HP stock?

stock parts have proven their worth and more. My buddy had dyno'd near 600rwhp (hard to tell as locked auto) with stock fuel rails, stock TB, intake.

either way 351 vs 302 FI is basically the same except for some minor things. All in all, easiest, cheapest, most reliable way to make 300/300 would be take stock mustang HO 302 from 87-93 (88-92 forges btw), then either supercharge it (TC if you you can fab), add a few fuel parts Stick an matching tranny and viola.

This is not rocket science with the SBF stuff, which makes it nice

colsoncj · 11-29-2005, 04:28 PM

Why could i not use the ECU out of whatever i pull the motor out of?

DudeBud · 11-30-2005, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colsoncj

Why could i not use the ECU out of whatever i pull the motor out of?

i would i dont see why not

JamesD · 11-30-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenassco

not nearly enought to make any difference though, and nothing that tuning cannot fix. Mass air is MUCH better in every sense, especially if you were to mod your motor at all (and who the heck leaves a 302 stock?). Carb would be easiest to swap, but if you like the benefits of FI, you will have to use a aftermarket ECU anyways, which you have choices of SD or mass air.

I dyno'd my stock 88 SD notch i had and then also before I turbo'd it on my buddies dynometer and actually the mass air made more HP stock?

stock parts have proven their worth and more. My buddy had dyno'd near 600rwhp (hard to tell as locked auto) with stock fuel rails, stock TB, intake.

either way 351 vs 302 FI is basically the same except for some minor things. All in all, easiest, cheapest, most reliable way to make 300/300 would be take stock mustang HO 302 from 87-93 (88-92 forges btw), then either supercharge it (TC if you you can fab), add a few fuel parts Stick an matching tranny and viola.

This is not rocket science with the SBF stuff, which makes it nice

Yeah your right but you keep forgetting we are not putting the motor in a Mustang and we have less room to work with. So S/C or turbo is really not going to happen. S/C wouldnt be the greatest idea for people who off-road alot in wet condition since the belt could slip on the S/C and make it run like crap. Since the most of us here are looking for torque and not HP, the best bang for the buck would be stock speed density. Speed density you dont have to worry about a MASS sensor and since we dont have a lot of room for a mass, speed density works out. Who leaves them stock? Most of us here would probably since the HO motor in a Toyota would be more than sufficient to power our needs for bigger tires and pulling power. Also most of the people here probably dont know alot of about Fords especially the HO motors as we do. Mass air makes a little less HP than speed density does. So either one would work for us Toyota guys but SD is easier. You dont have issue with speed density when you have to worry about how and were you place your MASS air sensor.

James

colsoncj · 11-30-2005, 04:56 PM

For my application, I see keeping a stock bottom end, a good head job or aftermarket heads, aftermarket cam, some intake porting, and other little stuff... It sounds like SD would be easier for lack of MAF placement, but which application (SD/MAF) with the ECU that came with the motor out of whatever I pulled it from (probably HO stang or F-series), would allow the best results from the motor upgrades?

11-20-2005, 09:49 AM	#27 (permalink)
colsoncj Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monett, MO (Springfield) Posts: 2,533	How much different are the fuel injection systems between the 351 and the 302? Which 302's where roller setups? IIRC there were no roller 351's right? __________________ Cory Eastern OK, Western/Northern AR, Southeastern KS, or Southern MO area: OZARKS 4ROC Click Here 04 Dodge 2500 Cummins - DD/Tow Rig 02 Z06 Corvette - Weekender 94 FZJ80 - Wheelin Rig. Build in progress: http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129727 72 Buick GS - i.e. the project that will never get done.

11-20-2005, 11:33 AM	#31 (permalink)
JamesD Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Binghamton, NY Posts: 1,829	I just noticed you have an LS1 sitting in your driveway. There you go, problem solved! James __________________ New Tacome V6 transfer case http://www.yotatech.com/f107/sale-br.../#post50755569 Various Toyota truck/4Runner switches for sale http://www.yotatech.com/f109/various...trucks-148139/

11-20-2005, 12:42 PM	#32 (permalink)
colsoncj Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monett, MO (Springfield) Posts: 2,533	LOL the ls1 is staying where its at plus ive been told they wont fit, too big what kind of numbers did the HO 302's put out HP wise... I'd like to be around the 250 to 350 RWP range when its all said and done. If figure around there i'll have the power to do what i want, but not soo much power i'll need huge beefy axles. Thanks so far for all the help!!!! __________________ Cory Eastern OK, Western/Northern AR, Southeastern KS, or Southern MO area: OZARKS 4ROC Click Here 04 Dodge 2500 Cummins - DD/Tow Rig 02 Z06 Corvette - Weekender 94 FZJ80 - Wheelin Rig. Build in progress: http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129727 72 Buick GS - i.e. the project that will never get done.

11-20-2005, 12:54 PM	#34 (permalink)
JamesD Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Binghamton, NY Posts: 1,829	One other thing. You can use a SBC but the Ford fits better since it is narrower and the distributor is in the front so you dont have to worry about firewall issues. James __________________ New Tacome V6 transfer case http://www.yotatech.com/f107/sale-br.../#post50755569 Various Toyota truck/4Runner switches for sale http://www.yotatech.com/f109/various...trucks-148139/

11-20-2005, 01:34 PM	#35 (permalink)
colsoncj Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monett, MO (Springfield) Posts: 2,533	Thanks James... the note about a SBC... thats one of the many reasons im goin Ford __________________ Cory Eastern OK, Western/Northern AR, Southeastern KS, or Southern MO area: OZARKS 4ROC Click Here 04 Dodge 2500 Cummins - DD/Tow Rig 02 Z06 Corvette - Weekender 94 FZJ80 - Wheelin Rig. Build in progress: http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129727 72 Buick GS - i.e. the project that will never get done.

11-20-2005, 08:05 PM	#36 (permalink)
kyle_22r Registered User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Lacey, WA Posts: 3,992	i was gonna post the cardomain site about the guy who booty fabbed a 390 into his toyota. then again, at least he had the cajones to give it a shot. i never would've imagined a big block would ever fit in a toy bay... i thought about doing the 302 swap, the only thing that held me back is that i would never run an auto tranny, so you're limited with viable options: go with a huge NP435 4 speed, use an adapter and run a G or W tranny(bad idea imho, too weak) or spend a bunch of money on adapters and put in an NV3550. the ford is a little bit longer than the chevy, but lacks the distributor clearance problem and the width is nice. then again, i've seen a 350 swap that looked like it fit great in a toyota, so i guess everything is possible. go for it! __________________ 1998 tacoma, 3RZ-FE, 5 speed, 30x9.5R15 M/Ts past toys: 1984 4x2 1979 4x4 1991 4x4

11-20-2005, 08:11 PM	#37 (permalink)
colsoncj Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monett, MO (Springfield) Posts: 2,533	you could use a T18 or T19..... good small trannies __________________ Cory Eastern OK, Western/Northern AR, Southeastern KS, or Southern MO area: OZARKS 4ROC Click Here 04 Dodge 2500 Cummins - DD/Tow Rig 02 Z06 Corvette - Weekender 94 FZJ80 - Wheelin Rig. Build in progress: http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129727 72 Buick GS - i.e. the project that will never get done.

11-20-2005, 08:30 PM	#39 (permalink)
colsoncj Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monett, MO (Springfield) Posts: 2,533	I didnt think the t18/19s were that big... hmmmm __________________ Cory Eastern OK, Western/Northern AR, Southeastern KS, or Southern MO area: OZARKS 4ROC Click Here 04 Dodge 2500 Cummins - DD/Tow Rig 02 Z06 Corvette - Weekender 94 FZJ80 - Wheelin Rig. Build in progress: http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129727 72 Buick GS - i.e. the project that will never get done.

11-20-2005, 09:29 PM	#40 (permalink)
DudeBud Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: WA ,monroe Posts: 1,886	yeah take a look here http://classicbroncos.com/tranny-t18.shtml almost forgot about a ZF tranny that would be another good one __________________ Dan 95 4runner 3vze A/T 84 4runner sr5 Ford 302 T-18 4spd yota t-case yota front and rear both open 37X13.00 boggers 88 4runner 22re 5spd

11-21-2005, 11:22 AM	#41 (permalink)
leiniesred Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 271	Which tranny? 351M in my 1980 Bronco was the huge C6 slushy. I wouldn't bother with the m engine: And the 351C's just don't oil well. My Dad kept blowing them up in his mustang vintage racer. He went with the Ford 351W crate motor and makes more power than the Mustang can use on the track using PUMP GAS! "Rude, go get 10 gallons of gas." me: "sure, which color? Purple or blue?" Dad: "no no no, hop in the truck and run down to the Safeway grocery store and get the highest octane they have." Beat 3 out of 4 Dodge Vipers that day. tip: The Ford 351 is a few inches thinner than the chevy 350. You might be able to get the spark plugs out of it after the install. __________________ yeah.

11-21-2005, 12:50 PM	#42 (permalink)
colsoncj Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monett, MO (Springfield) Posts: 2,533	what would be a good slush box to put behind it? (need OD).... the bohemoth e4od? __________________ Cory Eastern OK, Western/Northern AR, Southeastern KS, or Southern MO area: OZARKS 4ROC Click Here 04 Dodge 2500 Cummins - DD/Tow Rig 02 Z06 Corvette - Weekender 94 FZJ80 - Wheelin Rig. Build in progress: http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129727 72 Buick GS - i.e. the project that will never get done.

11-21-2005, 01:22 PM	#43 (permalink)
DudeBud Contributing Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: WA ,monroe Posts: 1,886	AOD if you want od... another good place for info and adapters __________________ Dan 95 4runner 3vze A/T 84 4runner sr5 Ford 302 T-18 4spd yota t-case yota front and rear both open 37X13.00 boggers 88 4runner 22re 5spd Last edited by DudeBud; 11-21-2005 at 01:33 PM.

11-23-2005, 03:05 PM	#45 (permalink)
kev93p-up Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Amarillo, Texas Posts: 180	I built a 351W for a 67 mustang I had. It came out of a 69 Galaxie 500. I built it with the stock crank and rods, forged pistons, stock 4bbl heads reworked, decent dual pattern cam, Edelbrock intake, Holley 750 carb, and a Mallory Unilite ingition. With a 3.90 9" rear end, it ran high 12s and it was my daily driver. I loved the 351W (Windsor). There's no way a 351C (Cleveland, BTW you don't want one of these anyhow) would fit. It's too wide. __________________ 1996 4Runner SR5 V6, stuff... 2007 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 QuadCab Cummins Turbo Diesel

11-29-2005, 04:28 PM	#47 (permalink)
colsoncj Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monett, MO (Springfield) Posts: 2,533	Why could i not use the ECU out of whatever i pull the motor out of? __________________ Cory Eastern OK, Western/Northern AR, Southeastern KS, or Southern MO area: OZARKS 4ROC Click Here 04 Dodge 2500 Cummins - DD/Tow Rig 02 Z06 Corvette - Weekender 94 FZJ80 - Wheelin Rig. Build in progress: http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129727 72 Buick GS - i.e. the project that will never get done.

11-30-2005, 04:56 PM	#50 (permalink)
colsoncj Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monett, MO (Springfield) Posts: 2,533	For my application, I see keeping a stock bottom end, a good head job or aftermarket heads, aftermarket cam, some intake porting, and other little stuff... It sounds like SD would be easier for lack of MAF placement, but which application (SD/MAF) with the ECU that came with the motor out of whatever I pulled it from (probably HO stang or F-series), would allow the best results from the motor upgrades? __________________ Cory Eastern OK, Western/Northern AR, Southeastern KS, or Southern MO area: OZARKS 4ROC Click Here 04 Dodge 2500 Cummins - DD/Tow Rig 02 Z06 Corvette - Weekender 94 FZJ80 - Wheelin Rig. Build in progress: http://ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=129727 72 Buick GS - i.e. the project that will never get done.

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