Thoughts on Modifications, Guidelines to Think On

AxleIke · 01-16-2007, 10:35 PM

In light of many, many modification threads here in the past months, I got to thinking and decided to post some of my thoughts and general guidelines to modifications and questions regarding said modifications. Feel free to add or dispute.

NUMERO UNO This is a biggie folks. Something that almost everyone here seems to be forgetting in almost every thread posted.

THIS IS YOUR TRUCK. Not mine, not the guy down the street, yours. So, do what you want with your own truck. Ask advice, seek help, research ideas, but in the end, go with what you personally want to go with, even if it goes against what was posted in your "what should i get" thread. If money is an issue, if safety for your wife (or husband) and kids is an issue, hell, if looks are an issue, figure out what is important, and modify with that in mind, not what so and so says to do because they would build it such and such a way. In the end, you are the one who has to climb into and drive said truck. If you end up hating it becasue you put in a mod that you didn't want, then you have wasted both your time and your money.

#2 Having said all of that, the next thing to do is: Figure out who is worth listening to.

First, its likely not me. Second, there are folks here who have amassed huge quantites of knowledge about toyota trucks and 4runners and how to modify them. It will take newbies a while to figure out who those people are, but once you do, you will be able to get the answers you need from the questions you ask in your threads. There is a TON of the blind leading the deaf leading the comatose that goes on here. Its not that people are deliberately trying to mislead you, its that they are giving you experiences that they had when building only their truck, or that they have read elsewhere on this or other forums, or that they heard from their buddy.

Don't get me wrong, i am guilty of that as much as the next guy. I'm trying to stop, but still catch myself doing it sometimes.

The people who know their stuff are the people that haven't just built their stuff, but have built NUMEROUS others as well. There are people here who have entire websites dedicated to providing exact, specific, and often excruciatingly detailed instructions on how to modify, or what works and what doesn't. These people have put in the time, and the effort, and they know their stuff. When they tell you something, its worth more than 1000 posts from folks who haven't the foggiest.

I'm not posting names, as i do not wish to put people on the spot. If you wish guidence on who to ask about certain questions, PM me, and i'll tell you who i think is the most knowledgeable, then you can go from there.

Trois !CHEAP!

First of all, with regards to this sport, try to forget that word exists.

That being said, there are cheap ways to do things. They are seldom, if ever, the best way to do things. An example would be "Whats the cheapest way to lock the rear of my DD 93 pick up?" The answer is actually to weld the rear differential. That is absolutely the worst way to do it for that truck, but it is the cheapest.

I came into this sport with NO idea the kind of money it would take to build a rig. Its become a passion and an hobby, and i am quite a bit poorer for it.

Money is an issue, for everyone, a bigger one for some than for others. Realize that in this, more than most places, the "you get what you pay for" holds true almost 100% of the time.

This also applies to people who build things for our trucks. When someone has a product, that they have invested time and money into building, and they put it out here for us to view and potentially purchase, I ask only this: Unless you are planning to build and produce that product for the rest of us at a reduced cost, DO NOT, under any circumstance, get a thread going, or add to an existing thread, that you can build said product for way cheaper and the price is outrageous. OF COURSE you can build something for yourself for much cheaper, but not everyone can. By effectively insulting a vendor about their product, and certainly making them feel like the product isn't wanted, the vendor will likely quit making said product. Then the rest of us lose out. I know several vendors, and they have all been pretty fed up with trying to advertise on a board like this. That sucks for everybody.

Quatro !NEED!

This is another word that gets people into trouble.

Needing and Wanting are pretty different. Both are equally valid reasons for doing something.

An example would be this: About 5% or less of the people on this board who have performed a SAS actually NEEDED to do the swap. The other 95% WANTED to do so. All that means is that 95% of of SAS truck owners wanted to improve the strength and capability of their trucks, and had the money to do so. 5% had trucks that had IFS that was beat to unrepairable by wheeling far beyond the capability of said double locked, geared, IFS truck. But both groups had good reason to swap.

When someone posts a thread about "what do i NEED to run xx" tires", I see that there almost always begins a HUGE debate, and several pissing contests ensue. About all you NEED to run xx" tires is xx" tires.

The rest is up to you, and you can ask about the things that are important to you. For example, if you want a DD truck that looks cool, but realistically sees dirt about twice a year, then people can direct you to a build that will suit those circumstances. Better ability to drive hills? Better gas mileage? No rubbing? These are issues that need to be specifically addressed, with out asking "what do i need".

Fiver Resale Value

Yeah. So, it should be no suprise that modifying a vehicle is financially idiotic. But, it seems to be not so obvious. Let me put in another way. No one in their right mind buys a heavily modified rig from someone they don't know personally. The reason is that you have no idea what was done to the truck. You can buy a "dual locked, SAS'd, geared 93 4runner" and find out that the SAS was done with JB weld, the diffs are welded, and by geared, they meant that yes, it has gears in it.

I post this becasue, while not so much recently, but in the past i've seen a lot of "what can i get for this" threads. If you have a modified truck, get the blue book value on whatever condition it's in. So, if its got dents, and a cracked dashboard, say fair. More than that, call it poor. Add a bit to the price for the mods, but expect to lose most, if not all, the mod money you put into it. Just the way it is. Case in point, there is a thread on here for a trade for a built truck not too far away from where i live. Its been up for months. Not too many interested parties from the looks of things.

6 Whats best?

This also tends to get folks into some trouble. If you ask a question like this, expect to get answers that cost a lot of money. Thats the way it works. For those who answer threads like this, there are some products that are debatable, others are not. Things like lockers, winches, axles, not really open for debate. There are cheaper options, only one "best".

This sort of leads into company promoting/dissing. When questions get asked about what company is best, there is a lot of speculation. Company loyalty is good. Companies should WANT loyal customers. So, if someone gets on and says "i love such and such a company, i've dealt with them for years and they are great", don't reply with "well i've heard some not so good things". Unless you have personal experience with a company, then don't bash them, or put their name out for recomendation. However, if you have had a bad experience, by all means, let us know. If you got screwed, i would love to avoid the same fate, so please tell us.

Anyway, thats about all I got right now. As I said, feel free to add or contest as you see fit. Just some thoughts that have been bopping around my head for a while.

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d0ubledown · 01-16-2007, 10:50 PM

so..umm..you think ill be able to put 44's on a 93 DD with ifs? i think i've got 3.90's. buddy said he'll build me some 4" body lift pucks...

really though...well put.

SLC97SR5 · 01-16-2007, 11:05 PM

I agree with every point. I have also been guilty of every point...good or bad.

Thanks AxleIke!!

JETSI · 01-17-2007, 03:17 AM

Very good write up.

Bighead · 01-17-2007, 05:08 AM

Brought a tear to my eye.

lee · 01-17-2007, 06:24 AM

number one is very important. no matter whos ego is trying to push their opinions on you, fight the urge to do what others say and do whats right for you.

Ironmike4x4 · 01-17-2007, 06:39 AM

Well said. I would prefer to shorten it and say what my uncle and my dad have told me when I first started with my old project S10 Blazer at 15 years old. "Don't go buy the biggest lift kit and tires you can buy, get what you need for your purpose." In my area I do just trail rides which is just usually 30+ miles of gravel, dirt, mild rocks for stock suspensions, and occasional 1/2" of mud when its raining on the trail. I found the MOST I needed was a winch for my Blazer which I got for my graduation gift and mud tires (but was really more of a want than a need). Now I've got my 4Runner with more clearance than my Blazer but I'm running stock tires now and just a buddy and it's sufficient. If I were a mud bogger I could justify 44s, a huge lift, and big motor but that's overkill for my type of 'wheeling.

AxleIke · 01-17-2007, 05:16 PM

wow. 68 views, and 6 replies..guess i was a little off base with this...Ah well, got it off my chest.

slosurfer · 01-17-2007, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxleIke

wow. 68 views, and 6 replies..guess i was a little off base with this...Ah well, got it off my chest.

Not true, just means that you said it well and doesn't need much else added to it. :bigclap:

tc · 01-18-2007, 10:34 PM

The only thing I would have done differently was post it in the General Vehicle or Offroad Tech forums...

AxleIke · 01-18-2007, 10:50 PM

Thats not a bad idea, how do i get it moved?

**Lysmachia** · 01-18-2007, 11:34 PM

PM a MOD... or likely one of them will stumble acrosse this. Excelent post. You forgot the part about the exo cage though.. (LMAO)

/inside Joke

Flygtenstein · 01-19-2007, 06:33 AM

Good work.

The paradox is understanding, "what is right".

Some want to do things regardless, ask about them, get told not to do them, but do them anyway.

If you ask, get told the truth and still do it, either you are stupid or don't care.

Intrepid · 01-19-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flygtenstein

Good work.

The paradox is understanding, "what is right".

Some want to do things regardless, ask about them, get told not to do them, but do them anyway.

If you ask, get told the truth and still do it, either you are stupid or don't care.

Agreed. Sometimes people are disagreeing with you because you are stupid. For example, you want to stack top out spacers to get a 6" lift.

Perhaps as a preamble to number one, research first. Everything I have done I have searched and read, I came to a conclusion and if I wasn't 100%, then I posted.

Also, just because something is cheap doesn't mean it is bad, there are some areas in which you get more than you pay for. Are there prettier ways to do it? Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it is bad. How many people have the deckplate mod? That is cheap, is it bad? How many people have done the chevy swap? Is it bad? Half the Toyota board on Pirate is running rears up front, I am too, they work great, they were cheap...are they bad?

AxleIke · 01-19-2007, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flygtenstein

Good work.

The paradox is understanding, "what is right".

Some want to do things regardless, ask about them, get told not to do them, but do them anyway.

If you ask, get told the truth and still do it, either you are stupid or don't care.

Yup.

That was sort of my thinking on number one, and number two. After reading thread after thread on "which winch" or "what lockers best" or "can i weld my civic A-arms to my 4runners to make long travel" and then hearing people defend their ideas after asking for advice when the advice was "don't do it", i had to get some of the irritation off of my chest, so i wrote.

I figure, if you ask a question, and people who know their stuff not only tell you it won't work, but also tell you why, and you are still defending your way, then quit posting and do it. Its your truck, do what makes you happy. Just please quit arguing about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid

Perhaps as a preamble to number one, research first. Everything I have done I have searched and read, I came to a conclusion and if I wasn't 100%, then I posted.

That is a good point. Researching is probably one of the best and easiest ways to get the answer. Only problem is, sometimes people research, find out that putting two 6inch bracket lifts together for a 12 inch is a bad idea, then post about it saying "i couldn't really find the answer i wanted."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid

Also, just because something is cheap doesn't mean it is bad, there are some areas in which you get more than you pay for. Are there prettier ways to do it? Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it is bad. How many people have the deckplate mod? That is cheap, is it bad? How many people have done the chevy swap? Is it bad? Half the Toyota board on Pirate is running rears up front, I am too, they work great, they were cheap...are they bad?

Absolutely not. Some things are cheap and are definetly NOT bad. That wasn't my original intention when writing about cheap things. My point was that "cheap" is almost never the "best". Rears up front or chevy's work awesome, but there are ways to do it "better". However, "better" in those cases is likely a suspension that will take a bodied truck places it shouldn't be. So you could argue that it is in fact "worse" in that case. In the end, it comes back to number one. If cheaper is absolutely what a person has to do, then it really doesn't matter what others say. They need to build their truck how they want. I would say, however, that a person that does a "cheap" build will have had to sacrifice a very great deal to build said cheap truck, but for the most part, they won't be wheeling anything hard enough for it to matter, so i guess i'm just rambling here....ah well.

Tacoclimber · 01-19-2007, 09:14 AM

Ike, I just wish you would have posted this a few years ago. Woulda saved me some grief. On the other hand, now I do have valuable first hand knowledge of how NOT to do certain things. :pat:

Good work, good read. Should be a sticky.

Smiling_Jim · 01-24-2007, 07:21 PM

I have had the opinion that one should have the smallest tire and smallest lift that will get them thru the terrain that they want to wheel. Better to spend time and money on armor rather than huge lift and tires.

I also have learned that 4x4s handle better with open diffs, though both my trucks have lockers, with 2 detroits in the 89 Flat Bed.

Every now and then you will meet a guy (usually an old salt) with a 53 Willys flat fender Jeep. And guess what? You will see him clean almost everything that the $30,000 four link rig is running!

Flygtenstein · 01-24-2007, 08:49 PM

Now we are getting into fibbing.

You have to have a locker(s) to wheel hard stuff where I hang out. Open diffs and driving doesn't cut it. Big tires, lockers and driving barely cuts it.

The other thing is the paradox of the question. If the post asks what to do, you will be told what has been done and what others would do. If you already know what you want to do, please do it and share the pictures later as an exposition, not an inquiry.

Also, there are bargains. Things are not implicitly better or worse because of their cost. I hate people with hackalicious trucks bagging on ones that have that expensive mods the hacks wish for, only because of those mods and their cost.

MudHippy · 01-24-2007, 08:51 PM

"I don't need nobody tellin' me how ta do MY thing, that I know how to do better than anyone else" - Anonymous Yeah, I run 35's on my 88, whatuvit!

CJM · 01-24-2007, 09:43 PM

Excellent advice!

I too fell victim to the "lets lift it super high and thrown on some 35's!" crowd at first.

Then I researched, and researched, talked to other peoplem, posted, asked, begged, pleaded and short of it all I didnt borrow though.

What I discovered is that for me having a T100 you have 3 choices of lifts and all of them are 4" and thats that if you want akit. All use blocks and such, blah blah.

Anyway what I am getting at is before spending so much as a dime I figured out everything, most of the costs and how to do it-thats right before I even have spent a dime! I also abandoned the lets lift it high ideal and went with a much more conservative approach for less money and better capability overall.

Remember one thing folks-lift only as much as you need. No sense in doing a 4" lift if all you see is some loggin roads..

AxleIke · 01-24-2007, 11:07 PM

Glad the fibbing was taken care of.

I also have a bit more to add.

I think it's a balance. If you get on asking what you should do, expect answers from people who have done. People confuse mods with wheeling, and wheeling with street constantly. Build a truck for what you want. If you want it to look cool, say so, theres nothing wrong with that.

Modifications done solely for wheeling should be done only AFTER having done some wheeling. Just becasue you have a buddy with a jeep who says you shouldn't wheel a stock truck becasue you'll break stuff, doesn't mean you should modify. Just becasue you didn't make ONE obstacle because you are open open doesn't mean you absolutely need a locker, or a lift, or whatever. Most likely, you need to improve your driving skills. Once your confidence and skill reach the point that you are tackling trails where open diffs are possible, yet painful, then its time for lockers.

In addition, modifications for "street" cool are okay too. Nothing wrong with having a truck that looks good. But, lets not confuse that with wheeling.

MANY questions are asked: "what size lift should i get to fit xx tire, i want this tire so i can go wheeling?" I call BS. You want that size tire to loook cool when you're out on the town or going to the store. There is nothing wrong with that, but cut the "wheeling" crap. If you are concerned about wheeling, you need other, non "bling", hardware, not tires, not lift. I'm not saying you never take it offroad, but you can go offroad with little tires and no lift. It just won't look as cool.

I also want to add agreement to the exasperation expressed with regards to the "ghettofabber's" bashing the expensive stuff. You really just sound like dips to people who know whats going on.

But there are many who don't, who are looking for advice because they don't know whats what yet, and for you to get on and say something like "don't listen to these pricks, they'll tell you that compressed air lockers are the only way to go".

Well, they aren't the only way to go, but most of the time people are looking for improved offroad ability, without sacrifcing onroad handling. The absolute best way is with air lockers or with e-lockers. Anything else and you either sacrifice offroad performance (LSD) or on road (detroit, spool). These are the best of both worlds, and don't sit around and say that cheaper is better. Cheaper is only better for the pocket book, not better for the truck.

The person asking the advice isn't being forced to buy an expensive unit. They are being given opinions on what others have done, would do differently etc... They can buy what they want, they can build what they want. If they ask advice, they should be expected to be offered some. If you've built your whole truck for 500 bucks, offer your advice, and give some tips. Don't bash on people who've gone a little farther or done a little more.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.

tc · 01-25-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxleIke

If you are concerned about wheeling, you need other, non "bling", hardware, not tires, not lift. I'm not saying you never take it offroad, but you can go offroad with little tires and no lift. It just won't look as cool.

Are you saying my truck's not cool? LOL

HuskyRunner · 01-25-2007, 03:03 PM

I think the key is to the whole cheap is bad thing is Value. Everything is compromise (this is expensive but it's the best vs. this is cheaper, but it'll do what I need it to) There is a point when the dollars don't equal more capability, based on what you want your truck to do. But the flip side is the point when doing nothing would be better than doing something poorly. You have to be honest with yourself about how the truck will be used, and make smart decisions, or you might as well give the money away. I'm stuggling with this now, because I want to do the OEM lift simply because I want it, not because I need it for the wheeling I do. There is more value, for me, in bigger tires, as I'm gaining some clearance, and replacing a worn out set of tires. Therefore, the extra cost (above what's required) is low for the improvment I will see off road.

AxleIke · 01-25-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc

Are you saying my truck's not cool? LOL

No, you're truck is very cool. It isn't all that "bling". In my mind, this is good.

No one is saying that cheap is bad. Cheap just isn't best.

By best we are referring to a universal term.

So, if i had a million bucks to build a DD rock truck, what would i do? That sort of best.

Best can vary from situation to situation. What is best for a person may be what they can afford. Or what they can install themselves. However, in a thread that says "what locker is best", people will respond with the universal best, not nessesarily what is best for that person. It is impossible to know what that person's best is, which is why my number one rule is "do what you want with your own truck".

What i want to try to get this forum away from (and i'm begining to see is going to be impossible) is the idiots responding to a novice in a thread about said novice's truck.

phorunninduke · 01-25-2007, 08:07 PM

I have a huge problem with your little rant here....

Resale value.....

Take the KBB value..

Add up your "mods" (except tires) add 3% of the total mod value.

Subtract this from KBB.
Take tire value minus 2 x %wear [ $1000 - (2 x 25%) = $500 ]

add to running total...

If your lucky, you might be able to give your rig away.

01-16-2007, 10:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
d0ubledown Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: vansterdam BC. Posts: 1,432	so..umm..you think ill be able to put 44's on a 93 DD with ifs? i think i've got 3.90's. buddy said he'll build me some 4" body lift pucks... really though...well put. __________________ sonny ------- 1998 4Runner LTD. Fabtech CO fronts, OME/Pro Comp rears, SS rear links, Revtek diff drop, oem elocker, ARB RD90, 4.88's, 315/75/16 MT/R's on FZJ-80's, Trail Gear sliders, ARB Prado Bar, 1.5" 4Crawler BL, Tundra Brakes, wabfab disco's, IPF's...satoshi'd deckplated & ISR'd. SOLD!!! new ride: 1997 FZJ80. ome/arb/bfg/etc. when clinton lied..nobody died

01-17-2007, 05:08 AM	#5 (permalink)
Bighead Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,340	Brought a tear to my eye. __________________ Lance 2001 4Runner Limited 4X4 -- 315/75R16 MT/Rs \| MT Classic IIs \| Dual ARBs/4.88s \| (F) 5125/Tundra Coils (R) 5125/LC Coils \| 4Crawler 1.5" BL \| Aisin Manual Hubs \| Slee Sliders \| Sonoran Steel Rear Bumper \| TJM T-15 w/ Warn M8000 2004 Land Cruiser -- OME Medium Lift \| Nitto Terra Grapplers

01-17-2007, 05:16 PM	#8 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,887	wow. 68 views, and 6 replies..guess i was a little off base with this...Ah well, got it off my chest. __________________ 1987 Mutant 4runner\|Slightly Modified\|Lacking general build direction -Lifts and Tires look cool at the Mall, Lockers and Gears look cool on the trail. -Internet Nice Guy

01-18-2007, 10:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,372	The only thing I would have done differently was post it in the General Vehicle or Offroad Tech forums... __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

01-18-2007, 10:50 PM	#11 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,887	Thats not a bad idea, how do i get it moved? __________________ 1987 Mutant 4runner\|Slightly Modified\|Lacking general build direction -Lifts and Tires look cool at the Mall, Lockers and Gears look cool on the trail. -Internet Nice Guy

01-16-2007, 11:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
SLC97SR5 Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 392	I agree with every point. I have also been guilty of every point...good or bad. Thanks AxleIke!!

01-17-2007, 03:17 AM	#4 (permalink)
JETSI Registered User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Va Posts: 118	Very good write up.

01-17-2007, 06:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
lee Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: boston, ma Posts: 6,756	number one is very important. no matter whos ego is trying to push their opinions on you, fight the urge to do what others say and do whats right for you.

01-19-2007, 06:33 AM	#13 (permalink)
Flygtenstein Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 4,246	Good work. The paradox is understanding, "what is right". Some want to do things regardless, ask about them, get told not to do them, but do them anyway. If you ask, get told the truth and still do it, either you are stupid or don't care. __________________ Ease on down the road.

01-19-2007, 09:14 AM	#16 (permalink)
Tacoclimber Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Between a rock and a hard place, AZ Posts: 3,713	Ike, I just wish you would have posted this a few years ago. Woulda saved me some grief. On the other hand, now I do have valuable first hand knowledge of how NOT to do certain things. :pat: Good work, good read. Should be a sticky. __________________ CJ ...<>< 03 DC TRD Tacoma 4wd with a bunch of junk. SOLD 1964 Chevy Biscayne, 230 I6, lowered, satin black, old-school legit. Just wheel the stupid thing!!! But do it responsibly, ok? My band: Road Worn Saints

01-24-2007, 07:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
Smiling_Jim Registered User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canyon Lake, CA Posts: 178	Very Good Post... I have had the opinion that one should have the smallest tire and smallest lift that will get them thru the terrain that they want to wheel. Better to spend time and money on armor rather than huge lift and tires. I also have learned that 4x4s handle better with open diffs, though both my trucks have lockers, with 2 detroits in the 89 Flat Bed. Every now and then you will meet a guy (usually an old salt) with a 53 Willys flat fender Jeep. And guess what? You will see him clean almost everything that the $30,000 four link rig is running! __________________ A Hard Corps 89 Flat Bed truck. Dual Detroits, 5.29 Yukons with Longfields, 5.0 Inchworm case and 36 IROKS. Street legal 80 miles per hour cruise, roll up windows, stereo and AC. Who needs a Jeep? Not this old man!

01-24-2007, 08:49 PM	#18 (permalink)
Flygtenstein Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 4,246	Now we are getting into fibbing. You have to have a locker(s) to wheel hard stuff where I hang out. Open diffs and driving doesn't cut it. Big tires, lockers and driving barely cuts it. The other thing is the paradox of the question. If the post asks what to do, you will be told what has been done and what others would do. If you already know what you want to do, please do it and share the pictures later as an exposition, not an inquiry. Also, there are bargains. Things are not implicitly better or worse because of their cost. I hate people with hackalicious trucks bagging on ones that have that expensive mods the hacks wish for, only because of those mods and their cost. __________________ Ease on down the road.

01-24-2007, 08:51 PM	#19 (permalink)
MudHippy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Realm Of Fecal Cohesion Posts: 2,014	"I don't need nobody tellin' me how ta do MY thing, that I know how to do better than anyone else" - Anonymous Yeah, I run 35's on my 88, whatuvit! Last edited by MudHippy; 01-24-2007 at 08:55 PM.

01-24-2007, 09:43 PM	#20 (permalink)
CJM Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Central NJ Posts: 4,561	Excellent advice! I too fell victim to the "lets lift it super high and thrown on some 35's!" crowd at first. Then I researched, and researched, talked to other peoplem, posted, asked, begged, pleaded and short of it all I didnt borrow though. What I discovered is that for me having a T100 you have 3 choices of lifts and all of them are 4" and thats that if you want akit. All use blocks and such, blah blah. Anyway what I am getting at is before spending so much as a dime I figured out everything, most of the costs and how to do it-thats right before I even have spent a dime! I also abandoned the lets lift it high ideal and went with a much more conservative approach for less money and better capability overall. Remember one thing folks-lift only as much as you need. No sense in doing a 4" lift if all you see is some loggin roads.. __________________ 96' T100 SR5 4x4, ISR mod, Custom ABS snorkel, KC 57's Hella optilux el cheapo backup lights. Cobra 19III CB, Firestick 4ft antenna, Bilstein shocks. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

01-24-2007, 11:07 PM	#21 (permalink)
AxleIke Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 4,887	Glad the fibbing was taken care of. I also have a bit more to add. I think it's a balance. If you get on asking what you should do, expect answers from people who have done. People confuse mods with wheeling, and wheeling with street constantly. Build a truck for what you want. If you want it to look cool, say so, theres nothing wrong with that. Modifications done solely for wheeling should be done only AFTER having done some wheeling. Just becasue you have a buddy with a jeep who says you shouldn't wheel a stock truck becasue you'll break stuff, doesn't mean you should modify. Just becasue you didn't make ONE obstacle because you are open open doesn't mean you absolutely need a locker, or a lift, or whatever. Most likely, you need to improve your driving skills. Once your confidence and skill reach the point that you are tackling trails where open diffs are possible, yet painful, then its time for lockers. In addition, modifications for "street" cool are okay too. Nothing wrong with having a truck that looks good. But, lets not confuse that with wheeling. MANY questions are asked: "what size lift should i get to fit xx tire, i want this tire so i can go wheeling?" I call BS. You want that size tire to loook cool when you're out on the town or going to the store. There is nothing wrong with that, but cut the "wheeling" crap. If you are concerned about wheeling, you need other, non "bling", hardware, not tires, not lift. I'm not saying you never take it offroad, but you can go offroad with little tires and no lift. It just won't look as cool. I also want to add agreement to the exasperation expressed with regards to the "ghettofabber's" bashing the expensive stuff. You really just sound like dips to people who know whats going on. But there are many who don't, who are looking for advice because they don't know whats what yet, and for you to get on and say something like "don't listen to these pricks, they'll tell you that compressed air lockers are the only way to go". Well, they aren't the only way to go, but most of the time people are looking for improved offroad ability, without sacrifcing onroad handling. The absolute best way is with air lockers or with e-lockers. Anything else and you either sacrifice offroad performance (LSD) or on road (detroit, spool). These are the best of both worlds, and don't sit around and say that cheaper is better. Cheaper is only better for the pocket book, not better for the truck. The person asking the advice isn't being forced to buy an expensive unit. They are being given opinions on what others have done, would do differently etc... They can buy what they want, they can build what they want. If they ask advice, they should be expected to be offered some. If you've built your whole truck for 500 bucks, offer your advice, and give some tips. Don't bash on people who've gone a little farther or done a little more. Anyway, sorry for the rant. __________________ 1987 Mutant 4runner\|Slightly Modified\|Lacking general build direction -Lifts and Tires look cool at the Mall, Lockers and Gears look cool on the trail. -Internet Nice Guy

01-25-2007, 03:03 PM	#23 (permalink)
HuskyRunner Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Chilliwack, B.C. Posts: 702	Good post! I think the key is to the whole cheap is bad thing is Value. Everything is compromise (this is expensive but it's the best vs. this is cheaper, but it'll do what I need it to) There is a point when the dollars don't equal more capability, based on what you want your truck to do. But the flip side is the point when doing nothing would be better than doing something poorly. You have to be honest with yourself about how the truck will be used, and make smart decisions, or you might as well give the money away. I'm stuggling with this now, because I want to do the OEM lift simply because I want it, not because I need it for the wheeling I do. There is more value, for me, in bigger tires, as I'm gaining some clearance, and replacing a worn out set of tires. Therefore, the extra cost (above what's required) is low for the improvment I will see off road.

01-25-2007, 08:07 PM	#25 (permalink)
phorunninduke Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Intercourse, PA Posts: 1,479	I have a huge problem with your little rant here.... Resale value..... Take the KBB value.. Add up your "mods" (except tires) add 3% of the total mod value. Subtract this from KBB. Take tire value minus 2 x %wear [ $1000 - (2 x 25%) = $500 ] add to running total... If your lucky, you might be able to give your rig away.

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