Snowboarding - Which Wax & Technique is Most Optimal?

Rock Slide · 01-02-2008, 08:18 AM

I've really just got into snowboarding and got a question about board waxes. There seems to be literally hundreds of waxing brands out there claiming to be the best, but personally never having waxed a board before, I'm a little unsure which is the best, most practical brand to purchase?

With that said, waxing techniques vary by type of wax being used. One method requires dripping the hot wax on to the board, ironing it in, letting it cool, then scraping it off and buffing it smooth. While other techinques require you to simply wipe the wax on with an applicator and you are finished. (I could be wrong, but this type of wax seems to be more of a silicone based wax, than a bar of wax.)

I'm sure the first technique I mentioned is the best method to follow when waxing a board, but is it the most practical? Granted, I'd rather save time and just use a "wipe on" type wax to wax my board, but if this method is not as effective as the ironing method, then I'll definitely steer clear of it.

As far as Wax is concerned, I've read good reviews about Swix Wax. As seen here for sale: Swix Wax. How does this wax compare to others? Again, does a "wipe on" brand of wax work just as good as this type of wax?

As far as waxing the board, I came across this site. Never having waxed a board before, I found this site to be very helpful: Board Tuning.

The color of the bottom of my board is white & blue. I can see brown & black specs all through out the bottom of it...which I assume is dirt. I've been told the bottom of the board needs to clean of any dirt/grime before I am to wax it. Can anyone recommend any good board cleaners or are they all about the same?

So to Sum Up:

1. Which brand of wax is preferred?
2. Which waxing technique is optimal? (I assume the answer to # 1 will answer this question.)
3. Which brand of board cleaner is most desired?

I'll be going on a week long snowboarding trip very soon, so I'd like to get a jump start on waxing my board

. Any advice on the above is much appreciated!

TIA!

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tc · 01-02-2008, 09:48 AM

I am a big proponent of the hot technique. IMHO, it allows the wax to get "in" to the p-tex and last longer than the wipe on stuff. As such, I have very rarely used the wipe on, though, so my experience with it is limited.

As for brands, I wouldn't get too hung up on it - I've never really noticed a difference. What you WILL notice though is having the wrong temperature range wax on. In my experience, skis/boards tend to get better with age, as you get all the different temps of wax into them. Don't go with the "all temperatures" crap - it's BS, pick the wax likely for the conditions you are likely to see - for example, run cold wax for wet, manmade snow in the East, run a warmer wax for bluebird, dry snow conditions in the West.

Edges are critical, too!

I tune after each trip, leave the wax on to cover the edges so they don't rust, then just scrape them before you leave, maybe do another coat of wax if the conditions will be drastically different to what you waxed for.

That board tuning link looks like a good explanation of how to do it.

2000t4rAKS · 01-02-2008, 10:49 AM

Rock Slide,

I also recommend HOT WAX. In terms of brands, there are tons to choose from, but I have used One Ball Jay, Da Kine, and Burton. Like TC said, depends on the conditions that you will be boarding. The temperature of the wax is alot more important than the brand. I have never used SWIX before but alot of skier buddies swear by it. These are the supplies that you will need.

1) A good board cleaner, I think One Ball Jay makes one. (It smells like oranges)

2) The appropriate wax for hot waxing.

3) A decent size scraper since a snowboard is alot wider than a skiis.

4) Some green scotch pads for buffing.

5) An edge tuner is OPTIONAL... depends on if you are hitting the terrain park or not, but a clean edge is always nice.

Before you start waxing, you should bring your board indoor or room temperature because it will warm up the board a bit and open the pores on the bottom of the board. Then use the board cleaner and a rag to clean off any dirt, grime or old wax. Using the iron, drip the wax all over the board and then iron the whole board evenly so the wax soaks into the board. Then using the scraper, scrape off excess wax from nose to tail of the board. Try to get off as much excess wax as possible. Using the green scotch pads, buff the board out. If your edges are rusty or in really bad shape, you should take care of that before you clean the board with the board cleaner. Hope this helps.

Austin

SC4Runner · 01-02-2008, 10:53 AM

So snowboards are the reason why people think you put wax on the bottom of surfboards ???

tc · 01-02-2008, 11:38 AM

You've seen people putting wax on the bottom of surfboards?

How hard were you laughing?

SC4Runner · 01-02-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc

You've seen people putting wax on the bottom of surfboards?

How hard were you laughing?

I've seen it one time! Looking back, it was funny, but at the time I was pissed off because it made me realize this guy hadn't done any research before possibly hurting other people in the water...

However, I am actually very surprised not to see it everyday considering how there are so many people starting to surf these days.

Rock Slide · 01-02-2008, 12:52 PM

Thanks guys, that's what I was hoping to hear. The wipe on stuff sounded too good to be true. I want this board to last, so I'll definitely opt for the HOT method.

Yes, it will be East Coast boarding, so I'll be sure to match my temps with the right temp wax. I know Swix offers a handful of waxes for varying temps, but I'll check out the other brands too. My edges are still in super shape, so no need to tune them just yet.

I'll definitely check into the One Ball Jay products. Thanks for the suggestion.

So as a checklist for products I need goes as follows (Correct me if I'm wrong):

board cleaner
correct temp wax
board sraper
scotch pads

Couple more questions:

1. How often do you guys wax your board? We'll be on the slopes roughly 8hrs. Should the wax last at least a day or two?

2. This might be a stupid question, but is it safe to wax your board indoors? I've heard the fumes from the wax can be harmful, but how harmful could they be? Is waxing a board something that can be done in your living room or is it best to do it in the garage or a well ventilated area? Although the house we will be staying in on the slopes does not have a garage...

Tylerars24 · 01-02-2008, 12:56 PM

You have to hot wax, other techniques just leave a residue on the surface, hot waxing gets into pores.

You a flourine/ide (w/e) wax is what the racers use, but they are more expensive, the most important parts is to match the wax to the temp your gonna be riding in.

I don't use the flouro or graphite, but I'm fairly sure they are faster. I just use cheap carbon wax.

Get yourself an iron, I use an olds clothes iron, that I put on a band saw to take off all the coating on the bottom.

For a scraper, go to some place that deals with polycarbonate plastic sheets, and ask for some scrap about 3"x5".

When you scrape it is VERY important that you get everything off, my test is this: Drag your fingernail over the board, in a way that would scrap stuff up. Do this EVERYWHERE, especially the ends and middle(most likely areas you forgot some wax on there) you shouldn't pick up and wax when u scrape with your finger nail.

The wax you forget to scrape off will be slower than no wax at all.

SO SCRAPE YO SHIZZ.

Some people use a brush to put a "grain" in the wax, I do if i'm bored, its not neccessary unless u race.

I usually do this the night before I go to the mountain but, before the parties.
broken down:

1. If your edges need sharpening do it before anything.(remember your edges are like teeth, once they're gone, they're gone. file conseratively)

2. clean with a solvent, go to your ski/snowboard shop.

3. get a lighter and a prex stick, drip-fill and major gouges, especially ones that aren't paralell with the direction of travel.

4. put a block of wax on teh iron and drip it on the board.

5. spread the wax, don't leave the iron in one spot EVER, keep it moving, but work from middle to out side and from one end to the other.

6. let cool to room temp.(beers help)

7. scrap that mofo.

8. go shred.

EDIT:

Couple more questions:

1. How often do you guys wax your board? as much as is convinient, school pays for supplies so I do all the timeWe'll be on the slopes roughly 8hrs. Should the wax last at least a day or two? It will wear off depending on teh wax you use, the harder(colder the wax) the longer it will lasts, the warmer the shorter. Icy snow will wear wax off fast

2. This might be a stupid question, but is it safe to wax your board indoors? ya I do all the time, its a good high. scrap outside unless u've got a damn good vacuum or a dedicated room, its wicked messy I've heard the fumes from the wax can be harmful, but how harmful could they be? teh flouro waxes might be, dont be a (p)ussy, they arent that bad. cigarettes are worseIs waxing a board something that can be done in your living room or is it best to do it in the garage or a well ventilated area?do it in the garage, its fairly messy Although the house we will be staying in on the slopes does not have a garage...i've been charged by hotels for waxing in teh room, if you are slopeside, they look for people doing it, it has a distinct smell.

forgot to mention:
Use the least wax as it takes to cover the board, my standard is no whitish spots, that all. You will use WAYYY too much your first 3 to 5 times, then you'll learn it takes less work to scrap less wax, and u really didn't need all that wax that's lying on the

buy the cheapest wax you can find until you get good at waxing.

Tacoclimber · 01-02-2008, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc

You've seen people putting wax on the bottom of surfboards?

How hard were you laughing?

Back when I lived in Cali and got to surf more than twice a year, the guys I surfed with and I used to do that to each other as a prank. You don't have to do the whole bottom, just up around the nose, and near the tail, and it slows the board down so much... Super hilarious to watch someone try to figure out what is going on. Not so hilarious when it happened to you...

But I have actually seen a few people seriously wax the bottoms of their boards. I did laugh. Pretty hard actually.

tc · 01-02-2008, 01:44 PM

I used to wax skis in my dorm room in college.

x10000000 on the messy part. Found that you could take newspaper, put it over the wax in the carpet, then heat it with the iron and get most of it out. Still think we lost the security/cleanliness deposit on that room though.

Rock Slide · 01-02-2008, 02:32 PM

Thanks again guys, all that info really helps.

85toy · 01-02-2008, 03:11 PM

can anything bad happen if you dont wax a board or is it just for speed?

tc · 01-02-2008, 03:18 PM

If the ptex gets TOO dried out, it can crack, but that's going to take many years and exposure to sun/heat.

If you've NEVER had it done, I agree with the article - it pays to take it to a shop and have it run on their stone grinder. I do that every couple years with my skis.

Once you learn to tune your board(s) yourself, you'll never want to ski/ride untuned again ... doesn't take long to get spoiled.

85toy · 01-02-2008, 03:22 PM

oh ok well this is my second season with this board and ive never had it waxed i think ill take it to a shop to have it done.

tc · 01-02-2008, 03:26 PM

You will be amazed at the difference.

2KTacoma · 01-03-2008, 06:05 PM

if you dont wax the ptex will also wear down causing the base to recede below the edges:

|____| <-- the way it should be

|-----| <-- the way it will be if you don't wax

this is called railing, and will cause your skis/board to be very unstable when not on edge

mtnfreak · 01-03-2008, 09:37 PM

A few observations:
- the base of your board must be warm, dry and clean. If you can't accomplish this, don't bother.
- if you use an old clothes iron, set it to the lowest setting possible. If the wax smokes, it's too hot. You'll probably get a little smoke regardless, but chimney-style smoking means that your wax has been destroyed.
- if you use a new clothes iron, cover the base with a few layers of foil.
- don't scrape the wax off over anything you don't want to get wax on. If you use a tarp of some sort, make it twice as big as you think is needed. Watch out for the stuff that sticks to your clothes, and especially your shoes.
- if you aren't familiar with the local conditions, ask around. Most die-hards will let you know how to wax for the area. Many shops will tell you the same or cut you a deal to let them do it.
- unless you're a top-level racer, you probably won't notice any difference in what you do after scraping. Since you're an easterner, you really don't have to worry - the snow surface will buff the base as well as you can do.

01-02-2008, 09:48 AM	#2 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,372	I am a big proponent of the hot technique. IMHO, it allows the wax to get "in" to the p-tex and last longer than the wipe on stuff. As such, I have very rarely used the wipe on, though, so my experience with it is limited. As for brands, I wouldn't get too hung up on it - I've never really noticed a difference. What you WILL notice though is having the wrong temperature range wax on. In my experience, skis/boards tend to get better with age, as you get all the different temps of wax into them. Don't go with the "all temperatures" crap - it's BS, pick the wax likely for the conditions you are likely to see - for example, run cold wax for wet, manmade snow in the East, run a warmer wax for bluebird, dry snow conditions in the West. Edges are critical, too! I tune after each trip, leave the wax on to cover the edges so they don't rust, then just scrape them before you leave, maybe do another coat of wax if the conditions will be drastically different to what you waxed for. That board tuning link looks like a good explanation of how to do it. __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

01-02-2008, 10:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
SC4Runner Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 5th Gen San Diegan, California Posts: 5,888	So snowboards are the reason why people think you put wax on the bottom of surfboards ??? __________________ 1996 4x4 3.4L 4Runner on 35's - 6" of lift, MTR's, E-locked, ARB Tacoma Bumper, Sliders and a cut off tail pipe. 1966 FJ40 - SOA with stock springs, stock 1F motor, and a smelly tailpipe.

01-02-2008, 11:38 AM	#5 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,372	You've seen people putting wax on the bottom of surfboards? How hard were you laughing? __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

01-02-2008, 12:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
Rock Slide Contributing Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: B'ham, AL... 2002 4Runner Sport 4WD Posts: 2,046	Thanks guys, that's what I was hoping to hear. The wipe on stuff sounded too good to be true. I want this board to last, so I'll definitely opt for the HOT method. Yes, it will be East Coast boarding, so I'll be sure to match my temps with the right temp wax. I know Swix offers a handful of waxes for varying temps, but I'll check out the other brands too. My edges are still in super shape, so no need to tune them just yet. I'll definitely check into the One Ball Jay products. Thanks for the suggestion. So as a checklist for products I need goes as follows (Correct me if I'm wrong): board cleaner correct temp wax board sraper scotch pads Couple more questions: 1. How often do you guys wax your board? We'll be on the slopes roughly 8hrs. Should the wax last at least a day or two? 2. This might be a stupid question, but is it safe to wax your board indoors? I've heard the fumes from the wax can be harmful, but how harmful could they be? Is waxing a board something that can be done in your living room or is it best to do it in the garage or a well ventilated area? Although the house we will be staying in on the slopes does not have a garage... __________________ 2002 4Runner Sport 4WD My 4Runner Profile Accessories: SS 7.1 Lift Kit, WabFab 1" BL, TJM T15, Stubb Sliders, FX/TSX HID Projector Retrofit, 1st Gen Rollbar, Tundra Brake Upgrade, Hilux Surf Field Monitor, TRD Ivan Stewart Wheels, Nitto TG 265/75s, WeatherTechs, Hella HID 4000s, LED Tail Lights, JBL Speakers Mods: Disabled DRLs, Disabled Keyless Entry Chirp, Disabled VTRAC/VSC/ABS, Fog Light Mod, Air Elbow Mod & Rear Diff Breather Mod *"Why fix a Jeep, when you can drive a Toyota?"* Last edited by Rock Slide; 01-02-2008 at 12:53 PM.

01-02-2008, 12:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
Tylerars24 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: On top of your wife. Posts: 127	You have to hot wax, other techniques just leave a residue on the surface, hot waxing gets into pores. You a flourine/ide (w/e) wax is what the racers use, but they are more expensive, the most important parts is to match the wax to the temp your gonna be riding in. I don't use the flouro or graphite, but I'm fairly sure they are faster. I just use cheap carbon wax. Get yourself an iron, I use an olds clothes iron, that I put on a band saw to take off all the coating on the bottom. For a scraper, go to some place that deals with polycarbonate plastic sheets, and ask for some scrap about 3"x5". When you scrape it is VERY important that you get everything off, my test is this: Drag your fingernail over the board, in a way that would scrap stuff up. Do this EVERYWHERE, especially the ends and middle(most likely areas you forgot some wax on there) you shouldn't pick up and wax when u scrape with your finger nail. The wax you forget to scrape off will be slower than no wax at all. SO SCRAPE YO SHIZZ. Some people use a brush to put a "grain" in the wax, I do if i'm bored, its not neccessary unless u race. I usually do this the night before I go to the mountain but, before the parties. broken down: 1. If your edges need sharpening do it before anything.(remember your edges are like teeth, once they're gone, they're gone. file conseratively) 2. clean with a solvent, go to your ski/snowboard shop. 3. get a lighter and a prex stick, drip-fill and major gouges, especially ones that aren't paralell with the direction of travel. 4. put a block of wax on teh iron and drip it on the board. 5. spread the wax, don't leave the iron in one spot EVER, keep it moving, but work from middle to out side and from one end to the other. 6. let cool to room temp.(beers help) 7. scrap that mofo. 8. go shred. EDIT: Couple more questions: 1. How often do you guys wax your board? as much as is convinient, school pays for supplies so I do all the timeWe'll be on the slopes roughly 8hrs. Should the wax last at least a day or two? It will wear off depending on teh wax you use, the harder(colder the wax) the longer it will lasts, the warmer the shorter. Icy snow will wear wax off fast 2. This might be a stupid question, but is it safe to wax your board indoors? ya I do all the time, its a good high. scrap outside unless u've got a damn good vacuum or a dedicated room, its wicked messy I've heard the fumes from the wax can be harmful, but how harmful could they be? teh flouro waxes might be, dont be a (p)ussy, they arent that bad. cigarettes are worseIs waxing a board something that can be done in your living room or is it best to do it in the garage or a well ventilated area?do it in the garage, its fairly messy Although the house we will be staying in on the slopes does not have a garage...i've been charged by hotels for waxing in teh room, if you are slopeside, they look for people doing it, it has a distinct smell. forgot to mention: Use the least wax as it takes to cover the board, my standard is no whitish spots, that all. You will use WAYYY too much your first 3 to 5 times, then you'll learn it takes less work to scrap less wax, and u really didn't need all that wax that's lying on the buy the cheapest wax you can find until you get good at waxing. __________________ pickup, sas, 63s, custom high-steer Last edited by Tylerars24; 01-02-2008 at 01:06 PM.

01-02-2008, 10:49 AM	#3 (permalink)
2000t4rAKS Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 292	Rock Slide, I also recommend HOT WAX. In terms of brands, there are tons to choose from, but I have used One Ball Jay, Da Kine, and Burton. Like TC said, depends on the conditions that you will be boarding. The temperature of the wax is alot more important than the brand. I have never used SWIX before but alot of skier buddies swear by it. These are the supplies that you will need. 1) A good board cleaner, I think One Ball Jay makes one. (It smells like oranges) 2) The appropriate wax for hot waxing. 3) A decent size scraper since a snowboard is alot wider than a skiis. 4) Some green scotch pads for buffing. 5) An edge tuner is OPTIONAL... depends on if you are hitting the terrain park or not, but a clean edge is always nice. Before you start waxing, you should bring your board indoor or room temperature because it will warm up the board a bit and open the pores on the bottom of the board. Then use the board cleaner and a rag to clean off any dirt, grime or old wax. Using the iron, drip the wax all over the board and then iron the whole board evenly so the wax soaks into the board. Then using the scraper, scrape off excess wax from nose to tail of the board. Try to get off as much excess wax as possible. Using the green scotch pads, buff the board out. If your edges are rusty or in really bad shape, you should take care of that before you clean the board with the board cleaner. Hope this helps. Austin

01-02-2008, 01:44 PM	#10 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,372	I used to wax skis in my dorm room in college. x10000000 on the messy part. Found that you could take newspaper, put it over the wax in the carpet, then heat it with the iron and get most of it out. Still think we lost the security/cleanliness deposit on that room though. __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

01-02-2008, 02:32 PM	#11 (permalink)
Rock Slide Contributing Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: B'ham, AL... 2002 4Runner Sport 4WD Posts: 2,046	Thanks again guys, all that info really helps. __________________ 2002 4Runner Sport 4WD My 4Runner Profile Accessories: SS 7.1 Lift Kit, WabFab 1" BL, TJM T15, Stubb Sliders, FX/TSX HID Projector Retrofit, 1st Gen Rollbar, Tundra Brake Upgrade, Hilux Surf Field Monitor, TRD Ivan Stewart Wheels, Nitto TG 265/75s, WeatherTechs, Hella HID 4000s, LED Tail Lights, JBL Speakers Mods: Disabled DRLs, Disabled Keyless Entry Chirp, Disabled VTRAC/VSC/ABS, Fog Light Mod, Air Elbow Mod & Rear Diff Breather Mod *"Why fix a Jeep, when you can drive a Toyota?"*

01-02-2008, 03:18 PM	#13 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,372	If the ptex gets TOO dried out, it can crack, but that's going to take many years and exposure to sun/heat. If you've NEVER had it done, I agree with the article - it pays to take it to a shop and have it run on their stone grinder. I do that every couple years with my skis. Once you learn to tune your board(s) yourself, you'll never want to ski/ride untuned again ... doesn't take long to get spoiled. __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

01-02-2008, 03:26 PM	#15 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,372	You will be amazed at the difference. __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

01-03-2008, 06:05 PM	#16 (permalink)
2KTacoma Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 159	if you dont wax the ptex will also wear down causing the base to recede below the edges: \|____\| <-- the way it should be \|-----\| <-- the way it will be if you don't wax this is called railing, and will cause your skis/board to be very unstable when not on edge __________________ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Silver 2000 Toyota Tacoma Extended Cab V6 5spd SR5 Now with URD short shifter and Milled polyurethane shifter seat Hella FF1000 Driving Lights

01-03-2008, 09:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
mtnfreak Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: People's Republic of Boulder Posts: 830	A few observations: - the base of your board must be warm, dry and clean. If you can't accomplish this, don't bother. - if you use an old clothes iron, set it to the lowest setting possible. If the wax smokes, it's too hot. You'll probably get a little smoke regardless, but chimney-style smoking means that your wax has been destroyed. - if you use a new clothes iron, cover the base with a few layers of foil. - don't scrape the wax off over anything you don't want to get wax on. If you use a tarp of some sort, make it twice as big as you think is needed. Watch out for the stuff that sticks to your clothes, and especially your shoes. - if you aren't familiar with the local conditions, ask around. Most die-hards will let you know how to wax for the area. Many shops will tell you the same or cut you a deal to let them do it. - unless you're a top-level racer, you probably won't notice any difference in what you do after scraping. Since you're an easterner, you really don't have to worry - the snow surface will buff the base as well as you can do. __________________ 89 4Runner, V6, Auto, Some stuff's stock, some's not.

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