IBM Kills its Pension Plan

ebelen1 · 01-14-2006, 09:42 PM

First off, here's the article: http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...ampaign_id=tbw

Second off, I know a ton of the people on this board are pretty young but I think this is a situation where no matter what you're age, you consider the effects of it. As many large companies start killing their pension plans, it will affect not only those that are close to retirement but also the young folks. Think about it this way.

The older folks may not have put enough money aside as they may have been disillusioned with high real estate value, a pension they believed they were guaranteed, or even dreaded Social Security. If they do struggle, this can lead to government help, which affects young folks working with the likes of higher income taxes.

Lesson: Sock away as much as you can because no one else is looking out for you...

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Bob_98SR5 · 01-14-2006, 09:48 PM

Edwin,

Yup, seeing this more and more every day with big corporations. Nothing is guaranteed in life anymore.

Bob

4-RUNNIN' FREAK · 01-14-2006, 09:50 PM

China - The next USA.

gohawks · 01-14-2006, 09:53 PM

Scary, Scary, Scary.

Socialist revolt by the working class cannot be far away. If not the working class then by the poor if they were able to organize.

sigh.

4-RUNNIN' FREAK · 01-14-2006, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gohawks

Scary, Scary, Scary.

Socialist revolt by the working class cannot be far away. If not the working class then by the poor if they were able to organize.

sigh.

It does seem to be the phasing out of the middle working class.
Rich get more wealthy, while the poor get poorer.

What they fail to realize is that who is going to be doing the work, and protecting the country? Not like they care cause they invest and have places in other countries. Sell out the country their ancestors worked so hard to establish.

Bill Gates dumps USD for Euro.

bulldog-yota · 01-15-2006, 09:18 AM

Relax guys. Yes big corps are killing their traditional pension plans, but it is not like those plans where in place for 100s of years anyhow. Also the plans were unrealistic as they were not defined benefit plans, which means it will pay you till you die. Problem is that people live a lot longer than they did 30 years ago, which makes the plans unaffordable. I work for HP and they basically killed their pension plan at the beginning of this year for people below a certain age and with less than a certain number of years, at least they were kind enough not to bushwhack the older folk. However they increased their 401k contribution. Not nearly as good as I had it before, but better than nothing. I prefer this than having the company go bankrupt when I retire and loose my planned pension. It is just a pragmatic approach to reduce long term operating risk, as people's life expectancy has increased too much. This is something to keep in mind when you plan for retirement, as you will likely live a lot longer than your grandparents and parents.

The rich gets richer and the poor poorer has been going on for ages, however in a capitalist society there is nothing that prevents you from becoming one of the rich. That is the point, not that somebody will take care of you because you took poor choices, are lazy, etc. You have the opportunity and that is all that is guaranteed.

Bill Gates and buying Euros is so funny, as the amount of Euros he bought is a little drop in the ocean of his wealth. And why shouldn’t he be allowed to reduce his investment risk and increase his growth?? Besides buying Euros is a bad investment in my mind, but it is his choice.

***fustercluck*** · 01-15-2006, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldog-yota

Relax guys. Yes big corps are killing their traditional pension plans, but it is not like those plans where in place for 100s of years anyhow. Also the plans were unrealistic as they were not defined benefit plans, which means it will pay you till you die. Problem is that people live a lot longer than they did 30 years ago, which makes the plans unaffordable. I work for HP and they basically killed their pension plan at the beginning of this year for people below a certain age and with less than a certain number of years, at least they were kind enough not to bushwhack the older folk. However they increased their 401k contribution. Not nearly as good as I had it before, but better than nothing. I prefer this than having the company go bankrupt when I retire and loose my planned pension. It is just a pragmatic approach to reduce long term operating risk, as people's life expectancy has increased too much. This is something to keep in mind when you plan for retirement, as you will likely live a lot longer than your grandparents and parents.

The rich gets richer and the poor poorer has been going on for ages, however in a capitalist society there is nothing that prevents you from becoming one of the rich. That is the point, not that somebody will take care of you because you took poor choices, are lazy, etc. You have the opportunity and that is all that is guaranteed.

Bill Gates and buying Euros is so funny, as the amount of Euros he bought is a little drop in the ocean of his wealth. And why shouldn’t he be allowed to reduce his investment risk and increase his growth?? Besides buying Euros is a bad investment in my mind, but it is his choice.

Thread killer!

gohawks · 01-15-2006, 09:04 PM

What you mention is the "hope" that keeps the middle class dragging our butts to work everyday and taking the USA on our back. The hope that yes we can someday pull ourselves out of our current situation and aspire to the american dream (of course the definition is different for everyone).

Possible yes. If it doesn't happen is it because I'm lazy and made poor decisions? Not necessarily.

bulldog-yota · 01-15-2006, 11:38 PM

Point is that many "rich" people have taken risks that most people are not willing to do. The thing is that these risks are like playing prosports, you only hear of the ones who make it, not the thousands who don't. So under the etc. bucket I should have added life choices, some people are not willing to take the same risks as others or work s hard to make their dream come true. So no reason to throw out the rich get richer and poor gets poorer thing, everybodies life choices, etc determines their fate rather than old money or lack thereof. Today opportunties are more accesable than ever before, people have access to trade on stocks like never before as an example.

MTL_4runner · 01-16-2006, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldog-yota

Point is that many "rich" people have taken risks that most people are not willing to do. The thing is that these risks are like playing prosports, you only hear of the ones who make it, not the thousands who don't. So under the etc. bucket I should have added life choices, some people are not willing to take the same risks as others or work s hard to make their dream come true. So no reason to throw out the rich get richer and poor gets poorer thing, everybodies life choices, etc determines their fate rather than old money or lack thereof. Today opportunties are more accesable than ever before, people have access to trade on stocks like never before as an example.

Living in California (high tech exposure) might distort your view a bit since you are likely to have a disporportionate number of "nouveau riche" out there who are first generation wealthy. Many of the poeple from other areas of the country still remain in tight wealth circles and are still old money, something the tech boom actually reaffirmed. There is some risk taking to be made, but the really wealthy usually aren't the ones making financial investment decisions alone....they obviously have money to make it economical to get the best advice on just about anything they invest in....something the average person does not have economy of scale for.

Capitalism does have its advantages and disadvantages, but over all you'd be hard pressed to say capitalism always benefits everyone who works hard because there are always clear winners and losers. Healthcare in the US will be a good test (at near 13% of GNP). Due to the way the system is set up in the US and global competition, you will likely see a move towards the diminishing of both pension plans and unions. I'll be curious to see where the breaking point lies (if any). Today, if you are young and you still want a pension, you'll probably have to move to Canada (believe it or not, people still retire at 55 up here).

Bennito · 01-16-2006, 07:49 AM

I woke up a week or so ago to a commentator (on NPR) discussing how businesses moving away from pension plans was smart for the american economy and american businesses (boy, that's not what I would expect the slant to be on NPR).

As stated above, the pension plans pushed forth 50 years ago were too ambitious and not particularly fiscally responsible. Quite frankly, I applaud the move (as an American taxpayer who is tired of funding poor business habbits).

(I have no pension; so no disillusions of what my retirement will be)

ebelen1 · 01-16-2006, 08:12 AM

It's great to see people here debating/discussing this issue. All points so far have been great. The thing is, the informed have been chiming in.

The sad thing is there are so many more uninformed. It's still a fact that the US has one of the lowest savings rates of any country and although net worth, currently is high for US people, it doesn't always mean that we will be this way.

I really think the gap between rich and poor is getting worse rather than getting better. I'm not a Democrat and I hate it when the US government dishes out money from the "haves" to the "have nots" but there has to be that breaking point. I just feel for those that have not prepared and due to longer lives, I just have to think that the unprepared will suffer greatly.

gohawks · 01-16-2006, 09:03 AM

You are right on ebelen1, prepare as best you can with what you have.

I sock away what I can in a TSA and have my retirement plan at work (God only knows if that will be around in 28 more years, I know better to count on anything from Social Security).

I don't rely on the government to provide for me in the end, however I'd rather not pay into a system that will not pay me back in the end, ie social security.

sigh

MTL_4runner · 01-16-2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gohawks

I don't rely on the government to provide for me in the end, however I'd rather not pay into a system that will not pay me back in the end, ie social security.

sigh

I agree with you guys and it is sad that Social Security today really seems like a misnomer. There are total tradeoffs between systems (higher tax for hopefully guaranteed benefit). Very different mentallity since in the US people have already given up on the idea of any possible social net for their later years. I don't even want to mention the privitization of S.S. since I think that is a complete shedding of the gov't's responsibilities. Very sad IMHO and I do hope the next President in office is willing to do something about it.

surf4runner · 01-16-2006, 10:47 AM

im glad my company just reaffirmed their commitment to the pension plan

stevrock · 01-16-2006, 11:10 AM

I'm glad I'm 19 and am saving for my retirement already.

Bennito · 01-16-2006, 11:16 AM

There is one solution:

Last day. Capricorn 15's. Year of the city - 2274. Carousel begins.

/Obscure?

kyle_22r · 01-16-2006, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bennito

There is one solution:

Last day. Capricorn 15's. Year of the city - 2274. Carousel begins.

/Obscure?

come on, it's just a little fire

i don't have much faith in my government or business to provide for people's retirement. as soon as i get steadily employed(i wouldn't count my current job, i'm interviewing for an apprenticeship on wednesday), i'm going put my money towards 2 things -- land and retirement. let's face it, the 20th century was probably the greatest one for the US, what goes up must come down, unfortunately.

photoleif · 01-16-2006, 10:35 PM

the writer of the ibm article is talking out of two sides of his mouth. ibm didn't "kill" our pension plan. they certainly have switched it from one type to another, and of course like all companies it's in their interest. but don't read this and think that they're screwing over hundreds of thousands of ibmers. i don't have full info yet (most of us don't), but what they've put together is quite generous. however like others above me have said, don't count on it. start your own retirement savings and make it work. if your company comes through with something for you, great.

01-14-2006, 09:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
4-RUNNIN' FREAK Contributing Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: NNJ Posts: 3,951	China - The next USA. __________________ '02 4Runner - '06 XRunner Breakdancing www.BadgeYourRide.com Check this out Multi-Touch Interaction Research http://mrl.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/ Highest Xmax 6.5" subwoofer made Total Posts: 32,218 (75.35 posts per day) [/center] [/color] Still A Neon

01-14-2006, 09:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
gohawks Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,274	Scary, Scary, Scary. Socialist revolt by the working class cannot be far away. If not the working class then by the poor if they were able to organize. sigh. __________________ SERENITY NOW!!

01-15-2006, 09:18 AM	#6 (permalink)
bulldog-yota Contributing Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Morgan Hill, CA Posts: 1,876	Relax guys. Yes big corps are killing their traditional pension plans, but it is not like those plans where in place for 100s of years anyhow. Also the plans were unrealistic as they were not defined benefit plans, which means it will pay you till you die. Problem is that people live a lot longer than they did 30 years ago, which makes the plans unaffordable. I work for HP and they basically killed their pension plan at the beginning of this year for people below a certain age and with less than a certain number of years, at least they were kind enough not to bushwhack the older folk. However they increased their 401k contribution. Not nearly as good as I had it before, but better than nothing. I prefer this than having the company go bankrupt when I retire and loose my planned pension. It is just a pragmatic approach to reduce long term operating risk, as people's life expectancy has increased too much. This is something to keep in mind when you plan for retirement, as you will likely live a lot longer than your grandparents and parents. The rich gets richer and the poor poorer has been going on for ages, however in a capitalist society there is nothing that prevents you from becoming one of the rich. That is the point, not that somebody will take care of you because you took poor choices, are lazy, etc. You have the opportunity and that is all that is guaranteed. Bill Gates and buying Euros is so funny, as the amount of Euros he bought is a little drop in the ocean of his wealth. And why shouldn’t he be allowed to reduce his investment risk and increase his growth?? Besides buying Euros is a bad investment in my mind, but it is his choice. __________________ ___________________ ***andries*** 03 Pavement Princess 05 Mall Queen

01-15-2006, 09:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
gohawks Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,274	What you mention is the "hope" that keeps the middle class dragging our butts to work everyday and taking the USA on our back. The hope that yes we can someday pull ourselves out of our current situation and aspire to the american dream (of course the definition is different for everyone). Possible yes. If it doesn't happen is it because I'm lazy and made poor decisions? Not necessarily. __________________ SERENITY NOW!!

01-15-2006, 11:38 PM	#9 (permalink)
bulldog-yota Contributing Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Morgan Hill, CA Posts: 1,876	Point is that many "rich" people have taken risks that most people are not willing to do. The thing is that these risks are like playing prosports, you only hear of the ones who make it, not the thousands who don't. So under the etc. bucket I should have added life choices, some people are not willing to take the same risks as others or work s hard to make their dream come true. So no reason to throw out the rich get richer and poor gets poorer thing, everybodies life choices, etc determines their fate rather than old money or lack thereof. Today opportunties are more accesable than ever before, people have access to trade on stocks like never before as an example. __________________ ___________________ ***andries*** 03 Pavement Princess 05 Mall Queen

01-14-2006, 09:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
Bob_98SR5 Contributing Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 10,092	Edwin, Yup, seeing this more and more every day with big corporations. Nothing is guaranteed in life anymore. Bob

01-16-2006, 07:49 AM	#11 (permalink)
Bennito Contributing Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 824	I woke up a week or so ago to a commentator (on NPR) discussing how businesses moving away from pension plans was smart for the american economy and american businesses (boy, that's not what I would expect the slant to be on NPR). As stated above, the pension plans pushed forth 50 years ago were too ambitious and not particularly fiscally responsible. Quite frankly, I applaud the move (as an American taxpayer who is tired of funding poor business habbits). (I have no pension; so no disillusions of what my retirement will be) __________________ Ben - 97 sr5 - full of win.

01-16-2006, 08:12 AM	#12 (permalink)
ebelen1 Contributing Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Socal Posts: 1,964	It's great to see people here debating/discussing this issue. All points so far have been great. The thing is, the informed have been chiming in. The sad thing is there are so many more uninformed. It's still a fact that the US has one of the lowest savings rates of any country and although net worth, currently is high for US people, it doesn't always mean that we will be this way. I really think the gap between rich and poor is getting worse rather than getting better. I'm not a Democrat and I hate it when the US government dishes out money from the "haves" to the "have nots" but there has to be that breaking point. I just feel for those that have not prepared and due to longer lives, I just have to think that the unprepared will suffer greatly. __________________ ____________ Edwin 1999 SR5 4unner

01-16-2006, 09:03 AM	#13 (permalink)
gohawks Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,274	You are right on ebelen1, prepare as best you can with what you have. I sock away what I can in a TSA and have my retirement plan at work (God only knows if that will be around in 28 more years, I know better to count on anything from Social Security). I don't rely on the government to provide for me in the end, however I'd rather not pay into a system that will not pay me back in the end, ie social security. sigh __________________ SERENITY NOW!!

01-16-2006, 11:16 AM	#17 (permalink)
Bennito Contributing Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 824	There is one solution: Last day. Capricorn 15's. Year of the city - 2274. Carousel begins. /Obscure? __________________ Ben - 97 sr5 - full of win.

01-16-2006, 10:35 PM	#19 (permalink)
photoleif Contributing Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: 39.995, 105.119 Posts: 643	the writer of the ibm article is talking out of two sides of his mouth. ibm didn't "kill" our pension plan. they certainly have switched it from one type to another, and of course like all companies it's in their interest. but don't read this and think that they're screwing over hundreds of thousands of ibmers. i don't have full info yet (most of us don't), but what they've put together is quite generous. however like others above me have said, don't count on it. start your own retirement savings and make it work. if your company comes through with something for you, great. __________________ '95 Xtra cab 3VZE SR5V6 \| 33x10.50-15 BFG AT/KOs \| 4" Superlift \| OME torsion bars \| Total Chaos idler arm and uniball \| Rancho steering stabilizer \| Smittybilt front & rear tubular bumpers \| Sportsman topper \| Aisin hubs \| Dual Optimas \| Extended diff breathers \| Custom center console sometime: rear locker some sometime: retire the IFS My truck page Photography: http://www.aspen-graphics.com

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