Confederate flag

muddpigg · 10-31-2009, 04:22 AM

I'm one to argue but not one to bitch but: Please answer me why do I see the confederate flag flown in the pacific north west.

My Grandfather posted the framed "Letter of surrender" my great grandfather signed, swearing never to bear arms against the republic of the United States. My Grandfather always told me that "the Confederate flag had a place: a place being the history books." Yes there are versions of the confederate flag that aren't as popular as the "rebel" flag, that are flown.

No, I'm not a racist, was never raised that way. Which is usually associated with being southern. I'm not from a family of slave owners, yes I've met black men with my last name.

The south is a conquered nation, we are a republic again. My family suffered losses on both sides.

I am a combat vet and know that our county is built on many different people who have done far more than I have. I'll stand with any American, to hell and back. I'll give my life for my brother, my brother is of many different ethnic groups.

Yes, I'm American by birth but Southern by the grace of God. I bleed the stars and stripes. I'll stand next to any American, and several others who are more American than some Americans.

I don't think the Confederate flag should be flashed for some sort of "shock & awe" Find another alternative. It makes my blood boil.

Now for the ultimate question: do I have the right to beat the piss out of the posers as the right of other ethnic groups do for imposters?

For those that read this and think you don't belong because of your country of origin, I disagree my country is made of immigrants. I'll stand up and next to you, too.

If you believe as I do post up.

This ad is not displayed to registered members.
Register your free account today and become a member on Yotatech!

loislane · 10-31-2009, 05:14 AM

muddpigg: wow. a little too much deep thinking for me this early on a saturday morning. this post brought up lots of interesting points to ponder for me.

i like your attitude and appreciate your thoughtful comments on a very touchy subject. i too see the confederate flag flown here in michigan and get the feeling that it is less a respect for the Confederacy and more a statement, as you say, of "shock and awe"

i'm voting for not giving you the right to "beat the piss" out of them, or at least i hope you would not, but would hope that you would do what you are doing now and ask what the flag means to them. and i hope that you would have the chance to explain your point of view.

bless you for your service to your country.

peace.
l.

***fustercluck*** · 10-31-2009, 07:26 AM

You see the confederate flag because of this...

...same reason this can be seen flying.

muddpigg · 10-31-2009, 07:46 AM

Don't understand what you saying Fluster.

habanero · 10-31-2009, 08:16 AM

Freedom of speech would be my guess on Fuster's pictorial.

It's images of our flag altered such as above, not that it's Obama, but that it's been molested to represent one rather than all. Heck, that it's been altered at all. I do not like to see it worn such as the victors at the Olympics do, either. Oddly Ol' Dixie doesn't bother me, some of my family once flew it proud. It seems more a symbol of defiance in general than anything else these days.

My family shamefully did have slaves, one of which has made it into my genetic background. My family has suffered the Holocaust, the Russian Czars, the Creek Indians, the American settlers, and so on and on and on. Family on both sides of the American Revolution, Grandfather at Normandy beach on Dday, father and mother served during Vietnam. I am only a product of these people, not an extension. What they did and think and who they were is not indelible to what I think and who I am.

Hope you are doing ok, muddpigg, and recuperate well.
Thank you.

habanero · 10-31-2009, 08:18 AM

And yeah, waaayyyy too early on a Saturday morning.

muddpigg · 10-31-2009, 08:32 AM

Don't know why the chord was struck on Sat morning, but it did. If it make you feel better I'm not sleeping. And know its a new day only because the blinds.

Ironmike4x4 · 10-31-2009, 08:38 AM

This thread might wind up being locked and a few bans but I'm putting in my 2 cents...

If you live in the South you will find confederate flags everywhere on t-shirts, bumper stickers, to actual flags. Everyone has their own opinions of it. Myself it's a symbol of heritage. My ancestors fought under the flag and were true "Hillbilies" that drove the British army out in the Revolutionary war. The same "Hill Folks" fought for the Confederates. Here's the odd thing about it though... They did NOT own slaves. Slavery was AN issue but have you dug any further than that? The North side had more rail roads, industries, and better economy than the south. The southern states were primarily farming states and were being taken advantage of by the northern states.

Now read closely. Slavery was AN issue, NOT the WHOLE issue. Unfortunately slavery is a part of our past, but in the end is a much better outcome. Research what is going on over in Sudan and Congo Republic today.... still want to press the issue? I doubt it.

Like I said, the flag is quite common here in SC. Each person has their own opinions of it. Yes there are those that view it as hatred. Those are the ones I dislike and have a negative opnion of it such as the KKK, Aryan Nations, etc. Next you have your "red neck posers." Those are the ones that want to act and feel like they are the good ole boys when in reality they are the buy anything I want with daddy's credit card crowds. Those are highly unfavored around here and often embarrased when they find themselves in bad situations (bars, hunting, 4wheeling, etc). Finally you have the heritage breed. Those are people whom have had ancestors fight in the civil war and view it as a pride factor. Just like if you are from an X-high school you have the pride in your "alma mata."

EDIT: to answer your question. We've taken care of those as I said before. The "posers."

SC4Runner · 10-31-2009, 08:57 AM

Living over here, I've always thought the Confederate Flag was just like saying: "I live in the South! And Im proud of it". Just like it would be flying a California flag, being proud of where you live. Seems like its a pretty common thing to do, never dug into it further.

I could imagine there are some "extreme" situations where the flag bearers are those who are racist or whatever but I think no matter what thing we are talking about, there will always be the few that do not represent the whole.

As far as flying it in the NW? Not sure, Id imagine they are the racist idiots?

muddpigg · 10-31-2009, 08:58 AM

Iron mike: I get what your saying as I'm from NC and have seeen the flag in many places. But now I'm in the pacific north west. I see the flag not as off=ten but quite a bit. Yes it is possible that it is still heritage but the fact remains that the flag and its different variations have a place, called a history book.

I've been in a war since the civil war, my family has been in every war back to the revolutionary. On both side of the civil war.

muddpigg · 10-31-2009, 09:12 AM

SC: You might be right, but why is it that it is so important that we continue to chalk things that happened what a 135 years ago. Both my grandfather served wwII as did my uncle in Vietnam, my father in the first Gulf War and I'm an OIF vet.

I've served with Black, Latino, Pacific Islander, Native American, Korean, and on. It seems like something that has always been. But we should see it through their eyes, if you think I'm a race traitor. Well where were you, you didn't stand with us.

habanero · 10-31-2009, 09:17 AM

Well said, Ironmike.

muddpigg · 10-31-2009, 09:37 AM

I still say " I don't care what your dad did or you granddad if you hid out in college don't give me no about heritage." Don't give me no excuses of wife and kids neither cause I got them too.

muddpigg · 10-31-2009, 09:43 AM

Hey, gonna try and crash for awhile. With luck this post will be up later.

habanero · 10-31-2009, 09:52 AM

Are you saying if you didn't serve you don't have the right to be proud...or ashamed....of those who came before you that contributed to your being?

Or, are you saying that you shouldn't fly a flag because of your heritage if you yourself did not contribute to what that flag stood for through service for it?

In the case of the Confederate flag could it be people are still fighting for it though the war is now a different one?

Not trying to be inflammatory, just trying to understand what you are trying to say.
I'll happily remove this post if it's offensive.

SC4Runner · 10-31-2009, 10:16 AM

Muddpigg, didn't catch what you were sayin in response.

But, your first post, from what I gathered I completely agree with you.

Lastly, I too have documentation and knowledge of a grandfather fighting in every American war since the Revolution. (I'm in SAR...Sons of the American Revolution, you should check it out).

olharleyman · 10-31-2009, 11:00 AM

My great grandfather x2 was GENERAL ALBERT PIKE ( my uncle bears his name as well)I was born in S.Carolina and my flag fly's on the Olympic Pennisula with pride for that very reason even though I am in Maryland it still flies there thanks to my daughter.

**aviator** · 10-31-2009, 11:03 AM

I think mudd's a little tired is all habsie... I think he meant it did'nt matter...

SC just how long did your grandfather live? if he fought in every war since the revolution he must have been a seriously old coot when the reaper finally caught up with him lol... (IK you meant a fore father in every war)...

As long as the converstation stays civil the thread will stay open...

For my own part the confederate flag will always be the good old "Stars and Bars"... the "rebel" flag (designed by R.E. Lee himself if I remember my history) was a design proposed by Lee and rejected by the Confederate gov't. It was adopted as a battle ensign by a few southern units [militia units?] but was never an "official" flag.
It has since been co-opted by both racist and extremist groups as a way of flashing a one fingered salute to society in general. Sadly these organizations seem to lack the creativity to design there own ensign.

Some folks {not members of any extremist group} ][except maybe the NRA lol] also use it as way to advertise their "go their own way", "good ole' boy" "spirit/life-style". Nothing wrong with this except that because of the former groups use of the ensign these people are un-intentionally showing support for these subversive elements.

I believe also there is a version of one state's vehicle plates {Alabama? SC?} that uses the ensign as a historic symbol because it is more recognizable as a period symbol these days then the official flag is.

Blk63vette · 10-31-2009, 11:10 AM

This is a very sensative issue with me. I live in the South. There is a HUGE Confederate flag flow between Route 4 and 75 intersection in Tampa Florida..I was born in Mississippi. I find it offensive you refering people in the South being Racist. First off, the civil war was NOT about slavery.

In fact, this is NOT the reason the civil war began..You need to find out the FACTS before you make reference to inflammatory statements. The flag symbolizes history and hertiage in the South. People in the South are proud of their hertiage. My soon to be wife has origins from Thailand. I guess that makes me a racist.

Newbie_93 · 10-31-2009, 11:21 AM

i fly the confederate flag because i would much rather live under a confederacy, a strong local goverment and a weaker central goverment because i beleive a lot more problems could get solved this way...

**aviator** · 10-31-2009, 11:38 AM

Whoa folks... I never ever said people from the south were racist... I said they generally were not. I said that certain groups had stolen the flag for their own purposes. That because of this they may be seen to support the repugnant views of those groups. This is one reason why these extreme organizations use the ensign as their symbol...to artificially swell their numbers in the eyes of the world.

I know the war was not about slavery it was just one of the popular excuses. The war was about loss of influence as the economy shifted to industrial [north] from agrarian [south] and the legislative/economic needs of the latter being ignored in the process.

Lincoln's "freeing" of the slaves was as much military exercise as a moral policy. It was designed to both cripple the south's economy and distract the south's forces from battle with union forces by forcing them into a police role.
Interestingly form a technical/legal stand point Lincoln's decision should have had no bearing on the condition of the slaves until after the surrender as the DC gov't. had no legal hold over the confederate states at that time.

newb the confederate gov't was just another strong central gov't, indeed in the early days before the war started [in Charleston Harbour] many in the SC delegation [some of Bob Rhett's group] felt that the needs and views of the Palmetto state were not being heard/met and wanted to get out of the confederacy and petition Britain to become a protectorate of the Commonwealth. [As a major source of Cotton for Britain's mills this might have had a chance of happening... though at the time Britain was shifting it's cotton source to Egypt and India].

Newbie_93 · 10-31-2009, 12:27 PM

wait, i mite have been thinking of federation (if thats what a strong local gov. is)

or you may have just shot my argument down completly with that reply. in that case i apoligize for my statement

Kiroshu · 10-31-2009, 12:39 PM

Theres nothing wrong with it and even if you thought so.... theres nothing you can do about it. All that it represents is history. People look into it deeper than that and don't understand. Its about a 200+ year old flag that is nothing more than a historic pic and a reminder of things that have been done and are set forever.

spanish-road · 10-31-2009, 01:02 PM

I do believe that most of the people in PNW and other states that don't understand the historic importance of that flag and what it stood for. For all they see is the image of "red neck" and "hick" along with other stereotypes they themselves are trying to get labeled. They themselves are being attention seeking people, wanting a label or a false identity, its just psychological mentality, and they are ignorant of the meaning.

Don't get me wrong Im not saying that everyone that flies the flag is a ignorant stereotype seeking people. Cause I know there are people that live it and hold it to heart. But if you call the fakes out they will lie through their teeth.

***fustercluck*** · 10-31-2009, 06:38 PM

Habanero was right about my original post. It was a quickie response...you know, pictures/1000 words kinda stuff.

The entire confederate flag issue can be summed up in two words: Dissimilar definitions. To some folks, it represents racism. To other folks, it represents self determination. I'll explain.

The civil war was fought for many reasons, but chief among them was the southern States collecting on a promise made by the Union that they could secede from the Union if they believed their rights were being violated. Before this country became the United States, it was a collective of BRITISH colonies. The British made a practice of importing and working slaves as part of their economic plan for colonization. They ran ships from Britain to West Africa where they picked up slaves. On to the colonies where they auctioned them for profit and loaded the taxable produce and sailed back to Britain. This triangle ran for over a hundred years-ish and never would have ended had it not been for the American revolution.

By the end of the revolution, slavery had become an integral part of the economy and culture of the colonies and annexes. The FOunders knew that to rid this continent of the immorality of slavery, they would have to do it incrementally. They began with the words in the constitution and passed nuanced laws and amendments to move this nation to individual liberty for all. That those words can be found in document after document is not ironic given the slave culture of the day, they were the foundation of the cultural evolution from British rule to a democratic republic wherein all men/women are equal under the law.

The southern States' entire economy relied on slave labor and with abolition on the rise per the founders' design, those States feared economic collapse. They chose continue slavery and to opt out as was promised them by the northern States. This threatened to destroy the whole Union and make the continent vulnerable to a return to British rule. Abraham Lincoln would have none of it.

After the civil war, the southern States swore to rise again and the confederate flag being the standard of the secession became a rallying call for those loyal to the promise of States' rights supremacy over federal power; a condition of the States' agreement to join in the first place. The flag to them means the freedom of self determination and rebellion against centralized federal power....an increasing problem we face today.

For other folks that flag became the signal of not just racism, but racial persecution as the Ku Klux Klan and other oppressive organizations rose to power over the years. In essence, the original significance of the confederate flag was perverted by the Klan to strike fear and loathing in the hearts of our African American brothers and sisters; an act that infuriates me to this day. So, to the targets of that oppression see the definition of the confederate flag entirely different than those who associate it with it's original definition.

Ultimately, we are so far removed from the civil war, it's not surprising few of us know what was what. The thing that's important to know is that slavery would never have been abolished had it not been for a few morally convicted men with the intellect, searing desire and fearlessness to move history to righteousness. I find it ironic that through ignorance of some and malice of others, this country and it's founders and it's constitution are dismissed as having commited the original sin and therefore are flawed, ripe for overthrow, when the opposite is the case.

God bless this nation, her constitution and those who sacrifice to serve and defend them and her citizens, for it is through God and that constitution that men are free to express themselves....even if that expression is objectionable.

Hallelujah, where's the eggnog?

10-31-2009, 05:14 AM	#2 (permalink)
loislane Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: west michigan Posts: 12	muddpigg: wow. a little too much deep thinking for me this early on a saturday morning. this post brought up lots of interesting points to ponder for me. i like your attitude and appreciate your thoughtful comments on a very touchy subject. i too see the confederate flag flown here in michigan and get the feeling that it is less a respect for the Confederacy and more a statement, as you say, of "shock and awe" i'm voting for not giving you the right to "beat the piss" out of them, or at least i hope you would not, but would hope that you would do what you are doing now and ask what the flag means to them. and i hope that you would have the chance to explain your point of view. bless you for your service to your country. peace. l. __________________ proud owner of a 1999 tacoma sr5 4x4, ext. cab., 31" yokahamas

10-31-2009, 07:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
*fustercluck* Sponsoring Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: right here. Posts: 7,061	You see the confederate flag because of this... ...same reason this can be seen flying. __________________ War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

10-31-2009, 07:46 AM	#4 (permalink)
muddpigg Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: injured and stateside :( Posts: 1,395	Don't understand what you saying Fluster. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY Balljoints for sale. Open to trades and offers. http://www.yotatech.com/f11/ball-joi.../#post51278784

10-31-2009, 08:32 AM	#7 (permalink)
muddpigg Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: injured and stateside :( Posts: 1,395	Don't know why the chord was struck on Sat morning, but it did. If it make you feel better I'm not sleeping. And know its a new day only because the blinds. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY Balljoints for sale. Open to trades and offers. http://www.yotatech.com/f11/ball-joi.../#post51278784

10-31-2009, 08:57 AM	#9 (permalink)
SC4Runner Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 5th Gen San Diegan, California Posts: 5,893	Living over here, I've always thought the Confederate Flag was just like saying: "I live in the South! And Im proud of it". Just like it would be flying a California flag, being proud of where you live. Seems like its a pretty common thing to do, never dug into it further. I could imagine there are some "extreme" situations where the flag bearers are those who are racist or whatever but I think no matter what thing we are talking about, there will always be the few that do not represent the whole. As far as flying it in the NW? Not sure, Id imagine they are the racist idiots? __________________ 1996 4x4 3.4L 4Runner on 35's - 6" of lift, MTR's, E-locked, ARB Tacoma Bumper, Sliders and a cut off tail pipe. 1966 FJ40 - SOA with stock springs, stock 1F motor, and a smelly tailpipe.

10-31-2009, 08:58 AM	#10 (permalink)
muddpigg Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: injured and stateside :( Posts: 1,395	Iron mike: I get what your saying as I'm from NC and have seeen the flag in many places. But now I'm in the pacific north west. I see the flag not as off=ten but quite a bit. Yes it is possible that it is still heritage but the fact remains that the flag and its different variations have a place, called a history book. I've been in a war since the civil war, my family has been in every war back to the revolutionary. On both side of the civil war. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY Balljoints for sale. Open to trades and offers. http://www.yotatech.com/f11/ball-joi.../#post51278784

10-31-2009, 09:12 AM	#11 (permalink)
muddpigg Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: injured and stateside :( Posts: 1,395	SC: You might be right, but why is it that it is so important that we continue to chalk things that happened what a 135 years ago. Both my grandfather served wwII as did my uncle in Vietnam, my father in the first Gulf War and I'm an OIF vet. I've served with Black, Latino, Pacific Islander, Native American, Korean, and on. It seems like something that has always been. But we should see it through their eyes, if you think I'm a race traitor. Well where were you, you didn't stand with us. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY Balljoints for sale. Open to trades and offers. http://www.yotatech.com/f11/ball-joi.../#post51278784

10-31-2009, 09:37 AM	#13 (permalink)
muddpigg Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: injured and stateside :( Posts: 1,395	I still say " I don't care what your dad did or you granddad if you hid out in college don't give me no about heritage." Don't give me no excuses of wife and kids neither cause I got them too. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY Balljoints for sale. Open to trades and offers. http://www.yotatech.com/f11/ball-joi.../#post51278784

10-31-2009, 09:43 AM	#14 (permalink)
muddpigg Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: injured and stateside :( Posts: 1,395	Hey, gonna try and crash for awhile. With luck this post will be up later. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqtr_RvR3sY Balljoints for sale. Open to trades and offers. http://www.yotatech.com/f11/ball-joi.../#post51278784

10-31-2009, 10:16 AM	#16 (permalink)
SC4Runner Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: 5th Gen San Diegan, California Posts: 5,893	Muddpigg, didn't catch what you were sayin in response. But, your first post, from what I gathered I completely agree with you. Lastly, I too have documentation and knowledge of a grandfather fighting in every American war since the Revolution. (I'm in SAR...Sons of the American Revolution, you should check it out). __________________ 1996 4x4 3.4L 4Runner on 35's - 6" of lift, MTR's, E-locked, ARB Tacoma Bumper, Sliders and a cut off tail pipe. 1966 FJ40 - SOA with stock springs, stock 1F motor, and a smelly tailpipe.

10-31-2009, 11:00 AM	#17 (permalink)
olharleyman Contributing Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: maryland Posts: 3,291	My great grandfather x2 was GENERAL ALBERT PIKE ( my uncle bears his name as well)I was born in S.Carolina and my flag fly's on the Olympic Pennisula with pride for that very reason even though I am in Maryland it still flies there thanks to my daughter. __________________ 1990 4 runner 5 Speed Pro Comp Stage II 4" Lift 6" coils rear Aussie Locker front 5.29's Front And Rear 35 x 12.5 x 15 MT's Micky Thompson Classic II Wheels Super Charged 3.4 on the way 1993 SAS 4runner 22re 5 speed 4" front 5"rear 5.29's 35 x 12.5 BFG KM'S Dick cepek DC 1's 88 stock 4runner 3.0 auto for now 1955 Harley Davidson Springer Stock 1955 Hardtail Frame 4 Speed Kick Start Only 1998 Harley Custom Dresser 107 rwhp 139 ft.lbs.trq.

10-31-2009, 11:03 AM	#18 (permalink)
aviator Super Moderator Staff Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: COTKU,Ontario,Canada Posts: 7,473	I think mudd's a little tired is all habsie... I think he meant it did'nt matter... SC just how long did your grandfather live? if he fought in every war since the revolution he must have been a seriously old coot when the reaper finally caught up with him lol... (IK you meant a fore father in every war)... As long as the converstation stays civil the thread will stay open... For my own part the confederate flag will always be the good old "Stars and Bars"... the "rebel" flag (designed by R.E. Lee himself if I remember my history) was a design proposed by Lee and rejected by the Confederate gov't. It was adopted as a battle ensign by a few southern units [militia units?] but was never an "official" flag. It has since been co-opted by both racist and extremist groups as a way of flashing a one fingered salute to society in general. Sadly these organizations seem to lack the creativity to design there own ensign. Some folks {not members of any extremist group} ][except maybe the NRA lol] also use it as way to advertise their "go their own way", "good ole' boy" "spirit/life-style". Nothing wrong with this except that because of the former groups use of the ensign these people are un-intentionally showing support for these subversive elements. I believe also there is a version of one state's vehicle plates {Alabama? SC?} that uses the ensign as a historic symbol because it is more recognizable as a period symbol these days then the official flag is. __________________ Silver 1994 Hilux Xtra cab 4x4 3.0 K&N cone filter, ported MAF, advanced timing, oversize exhaust, free flow cat, "rumble" muffler custom covered SR5 seats, map lights, factory AC tv4184 style black interior conversion started mods to come... header, custom centre console, stereo upgrade tinted windows Founding member 1972TLC fan club - Get well soon Mary Toyota Hilux... Get in or Get out of the way.

10-31-2009, 11:10 AM	#19 (permalink)
Blk63vette Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Sarasota, Florida Posts: 50	Southland Rebel Flag This is a very sensative issue with me. I live in the South. There is a HUGE Confederate flag flow between Route 4 and 75 intersection in Tampa Florida..I was born in Mississippi. I find it offensive you refering people in the South being Racist. First off, the civil war was NOT about slavery. In fact, this is NOT the reason the civil war began..You need to find out the FACTS before you make reference to inflammatory statements. The flag symbolizes history and hertiage in the South. People in the South are proud of their hertiage. My soon to be wife has origins from Thailand. I guess that makes me a racist. Last edited by Blk63vette; 10-31-2009 at 01:25 PM.

10-31-2009, 11:21 AM	#20 (permalink)
Newbie_93 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 38	i fly the confederate flag because i would much rather live under a confederacy, a strong local goverment and a weaker central goverment because i beleive a lot more problems could get solved this way... __________________ '93 4x4 Ext. Cab Pick-Up, 22r, 5spd., 293XXX, 33x12.50xR16, and some other stuff... Will trade for any bone-stock Toyota 1980-1994. Just lurking and soaking-up knowledge for now.

10-31-2009, 11:38 AM	#21 (permalink)
aviator Super Moderator Staff Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: COTKU,Ontario,Canada Posts: 7,473	Whoa folks... I never ever said people from the south were racist... I said they generally were not. I said that certain groups had stolen the flag for their own purposes. That because of this they may be seen to support the repugnant views of those groups. This is one reason why these extreme organizations use the ensign as their symbol...to artificially swell their numbers in the eyes of the world. I know the war was not about slavery it was just one of the popular excuses. The war was about loss of influence as the economy shifted to industrial [north] from agrarian [south] and the legislative/economic needs of the latter being ignored in the process. Lincoln's "freeing" of the slaves was as much military exercise as a moral policy. It was designed to both cripple the south's economy and distract the south's forces from battle with union forces by forcing them into a police role. Interestingly form a technical/legal stand point Lincoln's decision should have had no bearing on the condition of the slaves until after the surrender as the DC gov't. had no legal hold over the confederate states at that time. newb the confederate gov't was just another strong central gov't, indeed in the early days before the war started [in Charleston Harbour] many in the SC delegation [some of Bob Rhett's group] felt that the needs and views of the Palmetto state were not being heard/met and wanted to get out of the confederacy and petition Britain to become a protectorate of the Commonwealth. [As a major source of Cotton for Britain's mills this might have had a chance of happening... though at the time Britain was shifting it's cotton source to Egypt and India]. __________________ Silver 1994 Hilux Xtra cab 4x4 3.0 K&N cone filter, ported MAF, advanced timing, oversize exhaust, free flow cat, "rumble" muffler custom covered SR5 seats, map lights, factory AC tv4184 style black interior conversion started mods to come... header, custom centre console, stereo upgrade tinted windows Founding member 1972TLC fan club - Get well soon Mary Toyota Hilux... Get in or Get out of the way. Last edited by aviator; 10-31-2009 at 11:53 AM.

10-31-2009, 12:27 PM	#22 (permalink)
Newbie_93 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: South Carolina Posts: 38	wait, i mite have been thinking of federation (if thats what a strong local gov. is) or you may have just shot my argument down completly with that reply. in that case i apoligize for my statement __________________ '93 4x4 Ext. Cab Pick-Up, 22r, 5spd., 293XXX, 33x12.50xR16, and some other stuff... Will trade for any bone-stock Toyota 1980-1994. Just lurking and soaking-up knowledge for now.

10-31-2009, 12:39 PM	#23 (permalink)
Kiroshu Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: wade, NC Posts: 1,342	Theres nothing wrong with it and even if you thought so.... theres nothing you can do about it. All that it represents is history. People look into it deeper than that and don't understand. Its about a 200+ year old flag that is nothing more than a historic pic and a reminder of things that have been done and are set forever. __________________ My current: 1986 Toyota 4runner SR5 EFI 4cyl 2.4L 22RE 5-Speed 242,000 Miles 95% Stock __________________ (Still working on restoring her) My old: 1988 Toyota 4runner SR5 EFI V6 3.0L 3VZ-E 5-Speed 302,000 Miles All stock (sold)______________ (Was my fastest truck i miss her...) My old: 1989 Toyota 4runner Non-SR5 EFI 4cyl 2.4L 22RE Automatic 231,000 Miles (sold)______________ (was my quietest and slowest yota.) Last edited by Kiroshu; 10-31-2009 at 12:41 PM.

10-31-2009, 01:02 PM	#24 (permalink)
spanish-road Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Fairbanks Ak Posts: 1,099	I do believe that most of the people in PNW and other states that don't understand the historic importance of that flag and what it stood for. For all they see is the image of "red neck" and "hick" along with other stereotypes they themselves are trying to get labeled. They themselves are being attention seeking people, wanting a label or a false identity, its just psychological mentality, and they are ignorant of the meaning. Don't get me wrong Im not saying that everyone that flies the flag is a ignorant stereotype seeking people. Cause I know there are people that live it and hold it to heart. But if you call the fakes out they will lie through their teeth. __________________ What I don't get is why pay someone to work on your vehicle? 1991 toyota pickup extcab- 22re 31x10.5x15 bone stock except for the RV cam and tires.

10-31-2009, 06:38 PM	#25 (permalink)
*fustercluck* Sponsoring Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: right here. Posts: 7,061	Habanero was right about my original post. It was a quickie response...you know, pictures/1000 words kinda stuff. The entire confederate flag issue can be summed up in two words: Dissimilar definitions. To some folks, it represents racism. To other folks, it represents self determination. I'll explain. The civil war was fought for many reasons, but chief among them was the southern States collecting on a promise made by the Union that they could secede from the Union if they believed their rights were being violated. Before this country became the United States, it was a collective of BRITISH colonies. The British made a practice of importing and working slaves as part of their economic plan for colonization. They ran ships from Britain to West Africa where they picked up slaves. On to the colonies where they auctioned them for profit and loaded the taxable produce and sailed back to Britain. This triangle ran for over a hundred years-ish and never would have ended had it not been for the American revolution. By the end of the revolution, slavery had become an integral part of the economy and culture of the colonies and annexes. The FOunders knew that to rid this continent of the immorality of slavery, they would have to do it incrementally. They began with the words in the constitution and passed nuanced laws and amendments to move this nation to individual liberty for all. That those words can be found in document after document is not ironic given the slave culture of the day, they were the foundation of the cultural evolution from British rule to a democratic republic wherein all men/women are equal under the law. The southern States' entire economy relied on slave labor and with abolition on the rise per the founders' design, those States feared economic collapse. They chose continue slavery and to opt out as was promised them by the northern States. This threatened to destroy the whole Union and make the continent vulnerable to a return to British rule. Abraham Lincoln would have none of it. After the civil war, the southern States swore to rise again and the confederate flag being the standard of the secession became a rallying call for those loyal to the promise of States' rights supremacy over federal power; a condition of the States' agreement to join in the first place. The flag to them means the freedom of self determination and rebellion against centralized federal power....an increasing problem we face today. For other folks that flag became the signal of not just racism, but racial persecution as the Ku Klux Klan and other oppressive organizations rose to power over the years. In essence, the original significance of the confederate flag was perverted by the Klan to strike fear and loathing in the hearts of our African American brothers and sisters; an act that infuriates me to this day. So, to the targets of that oppression see the definition of the confederate flag entirely different than those who associate it with it's original definition. Ultimately, we are so far removed from the civil war, it's not surprising few of us know what was what. The thing that's important to know is that slavery would never have been abolished had it not been for a few morally convicted men with the intellect, searing desire and fearlessness to move history to righteousness. I find it ironic that through ignorance of some and malice of others, this country and it's founders and it's constitution are dismissed as having commited the original sin and therefore are flawed, ripe for overthrow, when the opposite is the case. God bless this nation, her constitution and those who sacrifice to serve and defend them and her citizens, for it is through God and that constitution that men are free to express themselves....even if that expression is objectionable. Hallelujah, where's the eggnog? __________________ War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873) Last edited by fustercluck; 10-31-2009 at 06:42 PM.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search