LC Engineering threating legal action

lphillippi · 12-23-2007, 07:17 PM

I bought a 2.5 liter (22re) LC engineering EFI Pro Long Block and it spun a bearing around 2 months and 2,000 miles. I had the motor pulled and shipped to LC for inspection. They refused to honor the 3 month warranty claiming the failure was caused by the motor running too rich. About 2 years ago I put up a web page detailing everything that happened. I just recieved a Cease and Desist letter from LC Engineering threating legal action if I don't take the web page down. Apparently they just figured out that "LCEngineering 22RE Lemon" appears under their webpage when you google lcengineering.

Google

I'm not taking the web page down. It's absolutly rediculous that they want to cover up the facts and prevent others from being warned about what happened.

Don't make large purchases over the internet, you have no recourse without going to the state the vendor is located.

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MudHippy · 12-23-2007, 07:38 PM

Tell 'em to go suck lemon's. Sorry...that slipped out.

But seriously, what a bunch of BS. Keep fightin' the good fight my brother!

P.S.

LCE sucks!

What are you gonna do, huh? Sue me too?!

**rocket** · 12-23-2007, 07:44 PM

Moved to vendor section.

tc · 12-23-2007, 07:47 PM

You might want to talk to a lawyer, not a bunch of 'wheelers.

NOTE: I am not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night:

It is possible that disregarding the Cease and Desist order in itself is worse. I doubt when you go to court that "they didn't honor the warranty" will stand up - it will be "you received the order on December 23, 2007, as of (date) your website was still in operation" - hell they may type in the URL in the courtroom and show it still active and you're done.

The case COULD go like a slander case, in which YOU have the burden of proof that the bearing indeed spun because of their fault, and from what you say above, I don't think you have solid PROOF.

Island_Yota · 12-23-2007, 09:02 PM

Pushing all the legal stuff aside for a moment,

I think its crap that a company featuring top of the line engines for our trucks wont out of courtesy help him out, even a bit. It sounds like poor assembly is at fault to me too or poor a quality bearing was used.

I dont think there is much you can do to get your money back, not to mention a new motor.

81redbluffyota · 12-23-2007, 09:48 PM

Dont take it down. there not going to go throuh the trouble. Hell, Id call them and tell them your gonna make 1000 more pages, and ruin there business, if they dont give you a new engine. 1 sale lost because of your page, wont be worth it to them. Good luck, and stick it to the man!!!!

shaeff · 12-23-2007, 10:35 PM

that's a load of crap. pardon you that you had a bad experience! jeez! i'd try to fight it, then counter sue for court fees. haha.

Brendan · 12-24-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc

You might want to talk to a lawyer, not a bunch of 'wheelers.

NOTE: I am not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night:

It is possible that disregarding the Cease and Desist order in itself is worse. I doubt when you go to court that "they didn't honor the warranty" will stand up - it will be "you received the order on December 23, 2007, as of (date) your website was still in operation" - hell they may type in the URL in the courtroom and show it still active and you're done.

The case COULD go like a slander case, in which YOU have the burden of proof that the bearing indeed spun because of their fault, and from what you say above, I don't think you have solid PROOF.

LC Engineering has no proof that the motor was running too rich either so on what grounds did they reach their conclusion? At the same time though, there are always two sides to every story and we've only heard one. I think his website should stay up. It does not necessarily represent the truth, but the opinion of the author. I guess maybe free speech is only permitted when the audience likes what they are hearing.

fork · 12-24-2007, 01:36 PM

host it on a foreign server, problem solved

i love loopholes

not that i had any plan on ever going to LCE considering shipping anything here can cost more than the part itself, but after reading that.. my decision is solidified

deserttoy84 · 12-24-2007, 05:43 PM

ive never heard of an engine spinning a bearing from running too rich.

They call your situation a latency defect.

fillsrunner4 · 12-24-2007, 05:51 PM

Just one more reason I will never do buisness with them again.

I want to go down and

their,

them up,

them and send

on them,

at them,

bomb them, then finish it off with a good

and

Sorry man im disgusted with them too. I feel a bit better after this post though

deserttoy84 · 12-25-2007, 09:42 AM

http://www.answers.com/topic/latent-defect?cat=biz-fin

lphillippi · 12-25-2007, 10:45 AM

Here is the deal on freedom of speech issues:
1) I'm entitled to my opinion as is LC Engineering. LC's opinion is that the motor failed because it was running too rich. My opinion and the opinion of dozen mechanics I've consulted with is that LC's opinion is full of . It is also the opinion of these mechanics that LC's opinion of the motor running too rich is highly unlikely and if it were running that rich it would have been running like crap and would not have passed smog in California. I believe the motor failed due to a faulty machine work and that they refused to honor the warranty because they know I live in another state and I would need to travel to Arizona to dispute their findings in court. The hassle of bringing expert witnesses to Arizona to fight them in court would cost as much as the engine. Especially when they're in possession of the engine and I'd need to get it back from them to have it inspected by prior to taking them to court. They have nothing to lose by not honoring the warranty, unless of course I tell the world what happened which I don't think they expected. I'm not going to be taken for $3,500 without warning others that it could happen to them.

2) You need to tell the truth. You can't make up lies with the intent of harming someone. The web page consists of facts, facts that LC doesn't want potential customers to know. LC doesn't want people to know that they sold a motor that failed within the warranty period and they refused to honor the warranty. This fact could cause them to lose motor sales. After all, if I knew they did this to someone, I wouldn't have risked $3,500. The motor failure is fact; the failure to honor the warranty is fact. The cause of the failure is opinion. I’m entitled to my opinion and so are they.

Freedom of speech on the Internet has become a big issue in recent years because the internet made it easy for an individual to publish information to the masses. Big companies with lots of money have been attempting to squash the opinions and facts published by individuals whose intent is to educate the public. My intent is not to cause LC harm. My intent is to share my experience so that others can make an decision of their own knowing the facts about what happened to me.

There are now anti-SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation) laws to protect individuals from companies that attempt to suppress the facts and opinions. There is a lot of information on the California Anti-SLAPP Project website.

FYI. Barrett v. Rosenthal established limits liability for Internet defamation. The decision holds that Internet users and providers are immune from civil liability for reposting third party content on the Internet. ie. This website cannot be sued for allowing me to post my opinion.

If LC were to pursue legal action to suppress my voice, I would make the details of the court action public and the case would cause them more harm than good. I'm pretty sure LC knows they have no right to control my speech. That's why the sent me a letter typed up by a secretary rather than something form a lawyer. Almost all companies of their size have a lawyer on retainer and if they had case against me it would have come from their lawyer, not from their receptionist.

Thanks for your opinions and support.

http://www.blowsand.com/truck/

thefatkid · 12-25-2007, 12:23 PM

Well they do have a point. Your site needs to only state fact of the product or it is slander. Even your actions here are slander and could be used against you.

1. did you ever get the old engine back and take pictures of the damage? Prove that is was not running rich? Pictures of the spark plugs removed from the rich engine? How many hydrocarbons were in your oil test?

2. at the time of the engine install what other actions were taken for the increase in displacement and and cam profile?

3. is your tech ASE certified? can he prove anything? what did he think?

Post up some relevant information to help your case or you might want to take the site down. It does sound like a personal attack on LC to me.

If it were me and I wanted to make a point.

1. post a picture of the combustion chamber on the head and piston side, showing the edge of the piston for signs of oil wash.

2. post the oil results up

3. post your tuning results from installing a high performance engine (a dyno run with air/fuel raito would be great).

4. say you and your technician found no signs of piston ring washout or oil contamination.

I would make no mention of your new engine, this doesn't prove or disprove anything. They have a point because at this point your not proving anything just throwing mud, this is against the law. Freedom of speech doesn't allow you to speak trash without recourse. You can state FACT all you want.

Leave the page up but remove the emotion and put up more fact to prove your point.

edit: if your still running a toyota ECM and you installed a new O2 sensor post that up too.

rob17san · 01-02-2008, 06:29 PM

Usually they use those letters to scare you. Also, that looks like a middle school student wrote it, and threw in some big words to sound professional. I wouldn't even worry about that. A company I used to work for sent those out regularly as scare tactics, knowing full well they were not going to persue legal action.

Good Luck!
Rob

12-23-2007, 07:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
MudHippy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Realm Of Fecal Cohesion Posts: 2,014	Tell 'em to go suck lemon's. Sorry...that slipped out. But seriously, what a bunch of BS. Keep fightin' the good fight my brother! P.S. LCE sucks! What are you gonna do, huh? Sue me too?! __________________ Sonoran Steel Early IFS Truss Your IFS is SPINELESS without it SonoranSteel.com I'm Cuckoo For YOTA Trucks! Last edited by MudHippy; 12-23-2007 at 07:52 PM.

12-23-2007, 07:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
rocket Super Moderator Staff Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 4,527	Moved to vendor section. __________________ '96-'02 gone: '92

12-23-2007, 07:47 PM	#4 (permalink)
tc Contributing Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 8,376	You might want to talk to a lawyer, not a bunch of 'wheelers. NOTE: I am not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night: It is possible that disregarding the Cease and Desist order in itself is worse. I doubt when you go to court that "they didn't honor the warranty" will stand up - it will be "you received the order on December 23, 2007, as of (date) your website was still in operation" - hell they may type in the URL in the courtroom and show it still active and you're done. The case COULD go like a slander case, in which YOU have the burden of proof that the bearing indeed spun because of their fault, and from what you say above, I don't think you have solid PROOF. __________________ Check out www.coTTORA.org to hook up with great Toyota 'wheelin' folks! Current - 93 4Runner: 3VZ 33"x10.50" no lift ARB F/R 96 Impala SS: My own personal cop car Previous - 89 2WD Pickup 22R, Fabtech "Ivan Dan" lift, 31x10.50, IASCA World Finals 4th Place Stop with the mods and get on the trail! Pix at www.4wheelingoh.shutterfly.com/action

12-23-2007, 10:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
shaeff Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: near Kingston, NY Posts: 301	that's a load of crap. pardon you that you had a bad experience! jeez! i'd try to fight it, then counter sue for court fees. haha. __________________ My heatercore replacement writeup with pics. -'94 Toyota 4X4, 22re, 31X10.5 BFG M/T's, 5 speed, MC rear bumper. (Winter DD/ off road fun) -'95 BMW M3, modded/suspension, sticky rubber, back road monster (Summer DD) -86.5 Toyota Supra, too much to list. (Never-ending project)

12-24-2007, 01:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
fork Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: out in the pacific Posts: 648	host it on a foreign server, problem solved i love loopholes not that i had any plan on ever going to LCE considering shipping anything here can cost more than the part itself, but after reading that.. my decision is solidified Last edited by fork; 12-24-2007 at 01:56 PM.

12-23-2007, 09:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
Island_Yota Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Location: Vancouver Island, B.C. Posts: 672	Pushing all the legal stuff aside for a moment, I think its crap that a company featuring top of the line engines for our trucks wont out of courtesy help him out, even a bit. It sounds like poor assembly is at fault to me too or poor a quality bearing was used. I dont think there is much you can do to get your money back, not to mention a new motor.

12-23-2007, 09:48 PM	#6 (permalink)
81redbluffyota Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: I live in Red Bluff ca. Right by the Sacramento river Posts: 122	Dont take it down. there not going to go throuh the trouble. Hell, Id call them and tell them your gonna make 1000 more pages, and ruin there business, if they dont give you a new engine. 1 sale lost because of your page, wont be worth it to them. Good luck, and stick it to the man!!!!

12-24-2007, 05:43 PM	#10 (permalink)
deserttoy84 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: san diego Posts: 862	ive never heard of an engine spinning a bearing from running too rich. They call your situation a latency defect. __________________ 1984 toyota sr5 4x4 22r w/ weber 32/36 Pro comp 4" front springs & 3" rear downey spring Home made On-board air system V6 4.88 lock rites F & R Bilstein 7100 reservoir shocks Last edited by deserttoy84; 12-24-2007 at 05:56 PM.

12-24-2007, 05:51 PM	#11 (permalink)
fillsrunner4 Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Sammamish, wa Posts: 2,724	Just one more reason I will never do buisness with them again. I want to go down and their, them up, them and send on them, at them, bomb them, then finish it off with a good and Sorry man im disgusted with them too. I feel a bit better after this post though __________________ 94' toyota 4runner (Many a change!) purchased bone stock, NOW... SAS, 39" Iroks, Rear Leafswap, 5.29's , Air locked front, Welded rear, Chevy 4.3L V6, 5spd swap, dual T/C's MC10R10, flatbelly with custom skids, sliders, Chopped, Bobbed and so much more. Might as well start reading this if ya want know more Fillsrunner4 3.4crawler Build Thread Fillsrunner4.3 crawler (Part Two) build thread

12-25-2007, 09:42 AM	#12 (permalink)
deserttoy84 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: san diego Posts: 862	http://www.answers.com/topic/latent-defect?cat=biz-fin __________________ 1984 toyota sr5 4x4 22r w/ weber 32/36 Pro comp 4" front springs & 3" rear downey spring Home made On-board air system V6 4.88 lock rites F & R Bilstein 7100 reservoir shocks

12-25-2007, 10:45 AM	#13 (permalink)
lphillippi Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: San Diego Posts: 20	Here is the deal on freedom of speech issues: 1) I'm entitled to my opinion as is LC Engineering. LC's opinion is that the motor failed because it was running too rich. My opinion and the opinion of dozen mechanics I've consulted with is that LC's opinion is full of . It is also the opinion of these mechanics that LC's opinion of the motor running too rich is highly unlikely and if it were running that rich it would have been running like crap and would not have passed smog in California. I believe the motor failed due to a faulty machine work and that they refused to honor the warranty because they know I live in another state and I would need to travel to Arizona to dispute their findings in court. The hassle of bringing expert witnesses to Arizona to fight them in court would cost as much as the engine. Especially when they're in possession of the engine and I'd need to get it back from them to have it inspected by prior to taking them to court. They have nothing to lose by not honoring the warranty, unless of course I tell the world what happened which I don't think they expected. I'm not going to be taken for $3,500 without warning others that it could happen to them. 2) You need to tell the truth. You can't make up lies with the intent of harming someone. The web page consists of facts, facts that LC doesn't want potential customers to know. LC doesn't want people to know that they sold a motor that failed within the warranty period and they refused to honor the warranty. This fact could cause them to lose motor sales. After all, if I knew they did this to someone, I wouldn't have risked $3,500. The motor failure is fact; the failure to honor the warranty is fact. The cause of the failure is opinion. I’m entitled to my opinion and so are they. Freedom of speech on the Internet has become a big issue in recent years because the internet made it easy for an individual to publish information to the masses. Big companies with lots of money have been attempting to squash the opinions and facts published by individuals whose intent is to educate the public. My intent is not to cause LC harm. My intent is to share my experience so that others can make an decision of their own knowing the facts about what happened to me. There are now anti-SLAPP (Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation) laws to protect individuals from companies that attempt to suppress the facts and opinions. There is a lot of information on the California Anti-SLAPP Project website. FYI. Barrett v. Rosenthal established limits liability for Internet defamation. The decision holds that Internet users and providers are immune from civil liability for reposting third party content on the Internet. ie. This website cannot be sued for allowing me to post my opinion. If LC were to pursue legal action to suppress my voice, I would make the details of the court action public and the case would cause them more harm than good. I'm pretty sure LC knows they have no right to control my speech. That's why the sent me a letter typed up by a secretary rather than something form a lawyer. Almost all companies of their size have a lawyer on retainer and if they had case against me it would have come from their lawyer, not from their receptionist. Thanks for your opinions and support. http://www.blowsand.com/truck/

12-25-2007, 12:23 PM	#14 (permalink)
thefatkid Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 53	Well they do have a point. Your site needs to only state fact of the product or it is slander. Even your actions here are slander and could be used against you. 1. did you ever get the old engine back and take pictures of the damage? Prove that is was not running rich? Pictures of the spark plugs removed from the rich engine? How many hydrocarbons were in your oil test? 2. at the time of the engine install what other actions were taken for the increase in displacement and and cam profile? 3. is your tech ASE certified? can he prove anything? what did he think? Post up some relevant information to help your case or you might want to take the site down. It does sound like a personal attack on LC to me. If it were me and I wanted to make a point. 1. post a picture of the combustion chamber on the head and piston side, showing the edge of the piston for signs of oil wash. 2. post the oil results up 3. post your tuning results from installing a high performance engine (a dyno run with air/fuel raito would be great). 4. say you and your technician found no signs of piston ring washout or oil contamination. I would make no mention of your new engine, this doesn't prove or disprove anything. They have a point because at this point your not proving anything just throwing mud, this is against the law. Freedom of speech doesn't allow you to speak trash without recourse. You can state FACT all you want. Leave the page up but remove the emotion and put up more fact to prove your point. edit: if your still running a toyota ECM and you installed a new O2 sensor post that up too. __________________ 90 4runner, 3.4 supercharged, 33" Nitto, 1.5" spacers (waiting on long travel), 62" alcan rear long travel, e-locker 4.56 gears. 92 4runner, 3.4, A340H, OME lift Last edited by thefatkid; 12-25-2007 at 12:27 PM.

01-02-2008, 06:29 PM	#15 (permalink)
rob17san Contributing Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 240	Usually they use those letters to scare you. Also, that looks like a middle school student wrote it, and threw in some big words to sound professional. I wouldn't even worry about that. A company I used to work for sent those out regularly as scare tactics, knowing full well they were not going to persue legal action. Good Luck! Rob __________________ TrueAutomotive. Your Toyota Parts Specialist. Check us out on eBay at HTTP://Stores.ebay.com/TrueAutomotive-Parts-Department OR Denvertoyota@yahoo.com

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