YotaJam 2003 is CANCELLED!
07-30-2003, 04:23 PM
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YotaJam 2003 is CANCELLED!
YotaJam 2003 is CANCELLED! Please spread the word.
Two months ago, when planning was really getting underway for this event, I spoke to "Mike" at the Naches Ranger District (lhiler@fs.fed.us) and gave him an accurate description of what we had planned, fewer than 75 people, dispersed camping for some and others coming and going through the weekend. He said at that time that no permit would be required for our event and directed me to a web page (http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/permits/broch.htm) that detailed the rules for when a permit was required. According to that page, as long as this was a "Club Outing" and was attended by fewer than 75 people and we did not charge any fees, we were in the clear. That position was confirmed on the 19th of this month when I described our situation to another ranger during our Naches pre-run and got the same reply.
Yesterday I received an email from Mike (lhiler@fs.fed.us), after he had viewed the registration site and in which he stated the following:
"I am writing this note from the Naches Ranger Station here in Naches. I
manage Special use permits for the Naches District, Wenatchee National
Forest, US Forest Service, and as of today, we have no permit on file for
your planned event on Naches Pass Trail, Crow Creek, or Little Naches.
Please call me Wednesday, July 30 and let me know the scope of your event
so I can notify you of your options. My phone number is 509-653-2205,
extension 247. I have a meeting from 8:00am to 10:00am and from 11:00 to
12:00. Afternoon is the best time to call. If you haven't gotten hold of
me by the end of the day I will be at my desk 0700 to 0800 on Thursday"
I wrote Mike (lhiler@fs.fed.us) back and reminded him that we had spoken and again described our event as fewer than 75 people, no money changing hands, etc. I just received his response. He states that he ran the event by the head ranger of the Naches District, Randall Shepard (rdshepard@fs.fed.us) and that suddenly now our event would require a permit, but they will not be issuing us one.
"...Your internet site I have pulled clearly demonstrates that your event is
organized and that you are providing the service of organizing those
activities for participants who are signing up. Our Ranger's advice, after
reviewing the web-site, is that you do not have a permit for an event which
clearly must be authorized by a permit and we are advising you not to hold
the event. Holding the event puts you at risk of receiving a Federal
Notice of Violation. I am replying on the internet for the sake of a
speedy return but if you need an official reply from the District Ranger
(Randall Shepard) he will be glad to get you direction. There is no way at
this point that a permit can be issued."
Obviously we cannot proceed under these conditions.
As I write this, I am so pissed off that I am shaking. I intend to continue to protest this abrupt about face by the people who are supposed to be managing our public lands for the use of the public, via email and phone calls to the higher ups in the Forest Service and to those bodies who oversee the management of the Forest Service. In the event that you feel the same way, I would encourage you write or call those who are responsible. Their homepage is located at http://www.fs.fed.us/ and the decisions were made by the "Naches District, Wenatchee National Forest, US Forest Service" of which Randall Shepard (rdshepard@fs.fed.us) is the District Ranger.
Sorry folks, this is not what any of us had planned and along, up until yesterday the Forest Service has maintained that we were good to go.
-Rob
Two months ago, when planning was really getting underway for this event, I spoke to "Mike" at the Naches Ranger District (lhiler@fs.fed.us) and gave him an accurate description of what we had planned, fewer than 75 people, dispersed camping for some and others coming and going through the weekend. He said at that time that no permit would be required for our event and directed me to a web page (http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/permits/broch.htm) that detailed the rules for when a permit was required. According to that page, as long as this was a "Club Outing" and was attended by fewer than 75 people and we did not charge any fees, we were in the clear. That position was confirmed on the 19th of this month when I described our situation to another ranger during our Naches pre-run and got the same reply.
Yesterday I received an email from Mike (lhiler@fs.fed.us), after he had viewed the registration site and in which he stated the following:
"I am writing this note from the Naches Ranger Station here in Naches. I
manage Special use permits for the Naches District, Wenatchee National
Forest, US Forest Service, and as of today, we have no permit on file for
your planned event on Naches Pass Trail, Crow Creek, or Little Naches.
Please call me Wednesday, July 30 and let me know the scope of your event
so I can notify you of your options. My phone number is 509-653-2205,
extension 247. I have a meeting from 8:00am to 10:00am and from 11:00 to
12:00. Afternoon is the best time to call. If you haven't gotten hold of
me by the end of the day I will be at my desk 0700 to 0800 on Thursday"
I wrote Mike (lhiler@fs.fed.us) back and reminded him that we had spoken and again described our event as fewer than 75 people, no money changing hands, etc. I just received his response. He states that he ran the event by the head ranger of the Naches District, Randall Shepard (rdshepard@fs.fed.us) and that suddenly now our event would require a permit, but they will not be issuing us one.
"...Your internet site I have pulled clearly demonstrates that your event is
organized and that you are providing the service of organizing those
activities for participants who are signing up. Our Ranger's advice, after
reviewing the web-site, is that you do not have a permit for an event which
clearly must be authorized by a permit and we are advising you not to hold
the event. Holding the event puts you at risk of receiving a Federal
Notice of Violation. I am replying on the internet for the sake of a
speedy return but if you need an official reply from the District Ranger
(Randall Shepard) he will be glad to get you direction. There is no way at
this point that a permit can be issued."
Obviously we cannot proceed under these conditions.
As I write this, I am so pissed off that I am shaking. I intend to continue to protest this abrupt about face by the people who are supposed to be managing our public lands for the use of the public, via email and phone calls to the higher ups in the Forest Service and to those bodies who oversee the management of the Forest Service. In the event that you feel the same way, I would encourage you write or call those who are responsible. Their homepage is located at http://www.fs.fed.us/ and the decisions were made by the "Naches District, Wenatchee National Forest, US Forest Service" of which Randall Shepard (rdshepard@fs.fed.us) is the District Ranger.
Sorry folks, this is not what any of us had planned and along, up until yesterday the Forest Service has maintained that we were good to go.
-Rob
Last edited by WATRD; 07-30-2003 at 04:51 PM.
07-30-2003, 04:36 PM
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ouch!!!! i just sent out an email reminding everybody of the event. i guess i'll send out another email about it being cancled. sorry to hear about this guys. good thing i didn't take work off. :pat:
07-30-2003, 05:08 PM
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The part that ticks me off the most is that I keep requesting clarification as to a SPECIFIC ordinance that we would be violating and they don't seem to have one to give to me.
As you can clearly see in the rules page linked, they state the following rules for detiremining if you need a permit.
When do I need an authorization?
1. If you will need to occupy, use, or build on NFS land for personal or business purposes, whether the duration is temporary or long term.
2. If there is a fee being charged or if income is derived from the use.
3. If an activity on NFS land involves individuals or organization with 75 or more participants or spectators.
Yet Mike states; "We do not require permits based on the commercial nature of an activity. A non profit group needs a permit just like a group which is making a profit."
Obviously we don't fit into those three categories. Then Mike stated that we needed to go through the permit process to make sure we had insurance for the event. On another FS regulations page, it clearly states "No permit fee, bonding, or other insurance is required for noncommercial group uses."
It's like they are changing the rules to suit them as they go...
I am so freaking p*ssed off right now...
As you can clearly see in the rules page linked, they state the following rules for detiremining if you need a permit.
When do I need an authorization?
1. If you will need to occupy, use, or build on NFS land for personal or business purposes, whether the duration is temporary or long term.
2. If there is a fee being charged or if income is derived from the use.
3. If an activity on NFS land involves individuals or organization with 75 or more participants or spectators.
Yet Mike states; "We do not require permits based on the commercial nature of an activity. A non profit group needs a permit just like a group which is making a profit."
Obviously we don't fit into those three categories. Then Mike stated that we needed to go through the permit process to make sure we had insurance for the event. On another FS regulations page, it clearly states "No permit fee, bonding, or other insurance is required for noncommercial group uses."
It's like they are changing the rules to suit them as they go...
I am so freaking p*ssed off right now...
07-30-2003, 05:13 PM
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Originally posted by WATRD
It's like they are changing the rules to suit them as they go...
It's like they are changing the rules to suit them as they go...
That or he's a Jeepster Lover...
07-30-2003, 05:19 PM
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I suppose ANYTHING is possible. But I was VERY clear when I spoke with him two months ago as to the scope and plans for the event. I wasn't even worried since we were well shy of the 75 people listed as the breaking point on the rules sheet HE referred me to.
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07-30-2003, 05:34 PM
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<RANT>
You know, I ALWAYS stood up for these clowns, saying they had a tough job to do and the like, even when they were allowing vast areas to be closed to true public use by the tree huggers and allowing other sections of public land to be exploited for the gain of private corporations. I even stood by them when they allowed HUGE areas to burn as a result of their mismanagment of the forests.
No more. Now I see the sort of bloated buearacracy that others had told me they had become. Now I understand the sort of games they play.
From now on, they are the Forest Disservice as far as I am concerned.
</RANT>
I just finsished drafting letters to the committee that approves their funding and to my Representitives and Senators in Washington D.C., recommending that they take seriously the reports of mismanagement by the FS as well as look into their selective enforcement of regulations on land "managed" by them.
My next round will be to the FS higher up's Nationally, but I completely expect they will ignore my complaint as history shows they have done in the past.
A quick Google search on <"Forest Service" mismanagement> has given me enough reading material for the rest of the evening...
You know, I ALWAYS stood up for these clowns, saying they had a tough job to do and the like, even when they were allowing vast areas to be closed to true public use by the tree huggers and allowing other sections of public land to be exploited for the gain of private corporations. I even stood by them when they allowed HUGE areas to burn as a result of their mismanagment of the forests.
No more. Now I see the sort of bloated buearacracy that others had told me they had become. Now I understand the sort of games they play.
From now on, they are the Forest Disservice as far as I am concerned.
</RANT>
I just finsished drafting letters to the committee that approves their funding and to my Representitives and Senators in Washington D.C., recommending that they take seriously the reports of mismanagement by the FS as well as look into their selective enforcement of regulations on land "managed" by them.
My next round will be to the FS higher up's Nationally, but I completely expect they will ignore my complaint as history shows they have done in the past.
A quick Google search on <"Forest Service" mismanagement> has given me enough reading material for the rest of the evening...
At least they told you b4 you got there & said where's your permit??
07-30-2003, 05:59 PM
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Oh man that is not good.
I had cancelled because I couldn't find someone to cover my duties for that period, now I've found a replacement and the event is cancelled.
I had cancelled because I couldn't find someone to cover my duties for that period, now I've found a replacement and the event is cancelled.
07-30-2003, 06:05 PM
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I wasn't going to go because I'm probably like 2000 miles away. But still, this pisses me off. It's pretty messed up what this guy did. How about we all write a e-mail to his superiors every morning before we go to work/school? Do you think that will get the message across? There is power in numbers. 
07-30-2003, 06:26 PM
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Why can't you still go as a non-sanctioned event? There is no law preventing people meeting at a given spot on their own accord. Just keep the numbers under 75. Don't call it Yotajam. What law would you be breaking?
07-30-2003, 06:31 PM
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FS Greed
They said it was ok without permits at first. They obvisiously ASSumed it was a wannabe event that would not bring in nearly the number first reported. Well at last count I saw something like over 50 rigs. When Ranger Rick the $$$$ saw the event site he obviously ASSumed there would be well over 75 people. He said it was ok! That is like a quote for a sale only there was no price set on this sale. It was FREE! He lied and that is illegal and I hope would be punishable by law. Many of the contributors,members, and specatators took time off to attend,money into mods,and money into supplies for the weekend. The FS is liable here, we need to strike back! ~~~~> <~~~~That is the new FS logo
<~~~~That is the new FS logo
07-30-2003, 06:31 PM
#16
Hold the event! The ranger is jacking you around, this is typical of the USFS. As long as your under 75 people you'll be okay. The USFS is bluffing you, if it was me I'd call their bluff.
07-30-2003, 06:33 PM
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FS Threats
Originally posted by ts1
Why can't you still go as a non-sanctioned event? There is no law preventing people meeting at a given spot on their own accord. Just keep the numbers under 75. Don't call it Yotajam. What law would you be breaking?
Why can't you still go as a non-sanctioned event? There is no law preventing people meeting at a given spot on their own accord. Just keep the numbers under 75. Don't call it Yotajam. What law would you be breaking?
07-30-2003, 07:02 PM
#18
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Re: FS Threats
Originally posted by BigBadBlue
They threatened fines!
They threatened fines!
Given that they've seen the web page, they know where we were headed. If this guy really is looking to be an a$$hole, then they'll let us get in on Friday, and wake us up at about 5am with the federal ticket books flapping. That, or ticket each rig individually. That, or ticket each campsite individually while we were out during the day.
Granted, they may not be able to make anything stick in court, but they could sure make trouble for us and ruin the weekend.
07-30-2003, 07:08 PM
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Re: Re: FS Threats
Originally posted by mpulver
And federal ones at that.
Given that they've seen the web page, they know where we were headed. If this guy really is looking to be an a$$hole, then they'll let us get in on Friday, and wake us up at about 5am with the federal ticket books flapping. That, or ticket each rig individually. That, or ticket each campsite individually while we were out during the day.
Granted, they may not be able to make anything stick in court, but they could sure make trouble for us and ruin the weekend.
And federal ones at that.
Given that they've seen the web page, they know where we were headed. If this guy really is looking to be an a$$hole, then they'll let us get in on Friday, and wake us up at about 5am with the federal ticket books flapping. That, or ticket each rig individually. That, or ticket each campsite individually while we were out during the day.
Granted, they may not be able to make anything stick in court, but they could sure make trouble for us and ruin the weekend.
07-30-2003, 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by Macgyver
Hold the event! The ranger is jacking you around, this is typical of the USFS. As long as your under 75 people you'll be okay. The USFS is bluffing you, if it was me I'd call their bluff.
Hold the event! The ranger is jacking you around, this is typical of the USFS. As long as your under 75 people you'll be okay. The USFS is bluffing you, if it was me I'd call their bluff.
But, that is an interesting gamble and people need to make that call on their own. Personally, I am going wheeling/camping this weekend, just not "officially" or where I had originally planned. I have not yet decided what my "Plan B" is.
