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95.5-2004 Tacomas & 96-2002 4Runners 4th gen pickups and 3rd gen 4Runners

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Old 12-27-2008, 12:58 PM   #1
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unstable at highway speeds. i think i know y

i have had my 2002 for over 3 years now. it has 148,000 miles on it. it had 60,000 when i bought it. i did not notice these symptoms for about a year and they have been getting gradually worse until im scared to let anyone else drive it because its getting pretty bad.

The best way i can describe it is a shudder/shimmy. it almost feels like the tires pop off the pavement over the smallest bumps at speeds as low as 35mph now. i know thats not possible tho. ive been doing alot of research and found THIS.

it sounds like exactly what i have going on. is it possible that i need new bushings?

i would upgrade the hardware to 4crawlers hd stuff and would consider a SMALL body lift while i am at it to make sure i have NO rubbing. i get minimal rubbing currently only when fully stuffed in the rear or if i hit a bump with some speed in the front. i dont want my 4runner to look hill bill yet so im going to keep it the BL as small as possible or maybe not at all. i feel like 1/2 inch would relieve my rub and not be too much. below are some pix of my wheel gap currently.

[Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

here is a link to someone who added a 1" and i think it looks good.

to recap. i need 2 responses.

1 - will poly bushings fit instability problem?
2 - should a i do a small lift while i am at it?
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:02 PM   #2
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Answers:
1) Don't know, won't hurt. How are your springs & shocks? Check your rubber bump stops. If the area the rubber contacts is clean & shiny, it means that you are bouncing off the stops & this will make the 4Runner unstable. Also check your tire pressure, it should probably be 28-30 psi. Your oversize tires are much stiffer then the originals & may also cause the poor handling.

2) IMHO, I don't care for body lifts, they seem to be a cheap & easy lift, but can cause their own problems such as relocating wires & hoses, bumper gaps, etc. I would do springs & shocks, they will fix many of your handling problems as well as provide clearance for your tires. '99 4Runner springs or some OME's would be a good choice.

Added: Oops, I missed that you have a SS 1.2 kit. When was it installed? I believe SS states you should have custom front & rear bumpers as well as sliders. Perhaps it is too stiff?
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:38 PM   #3
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there r many threads documenting how easy it is to do any body lift 1.5" and under. i am not worried about installation. i dont want wheel GIGANTIC wheel gap. just enough to clear stuffed tires.

i was having the same problem even before i did the ss lift. i travel with more weight in the rear then a bumper would add and the front on the 1.2 kit is the same as the 7 kit which does not call for bumpers. i never thought of this but bumpers would solve my clearance issue up front so maybe no BL. Thanks for the input paul!
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Old 12-27-2008, 03:20 PM   #4
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Front end problem Possibilities:

-The steering rack needs to be replaced or re-vamped with a bushing kit. Have someone turn the wheel back and forth while you are under the truck and see what clunks, has play or is broken. Good time to check for abused tie-rods.
-Check the lower/upper ball joints, lowers seem to fail first. Jack the truck and give the tires a shake down to check for play.
-Check front swaybar bushings for wallowing/cracking/misplacement
-Check swaybar end-links


As far as the BL:

The BL will give you some clearance but it seems that your fenders, bumpers and mud flaps are getting in the way of your 285ís. Even if you get the BL you will still rub plastic/rubber under certain articulation and steer lock. A cutting wheel and rubber mallet may provide your tires some relief. Plenty have to clearance fenders and wells to reduce the rub. Do your front tires contact your upper control arms? If so you may consider the Sonoran Steel Shaved A-Arms.
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Old 12-28-2008, 12:57 PM   #5
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Not sure I could see that being the cause of a true "safety " issue involving not letting people drive he truck.
Especially at 148,000 miles.

Unless there's clear evidence of a broken or missing part.

Here's some things I've experienced with my 99 at 140,000 miles.
1- Tires out of round from low inflation or just worn.
Pay NO atention to how much tread they have.

2- Wheels not properly balanced or balanced on the wrong machine.

3- My buddy had a alignment done by TOYOTA and they left the Centric bolts
well.......lets just say not tight enough . They worked themselves loose over a month and he lost the nut. The only thing that saved the A arm from dropping is that the bolt is trapped through the bushings and can not fall completely out.

barring a obvious broken or missing front end part.............I go with tires.

Just thinking.......... any anti lock brake issues? I've seen bad shocks and struts cause the anti lock brakes to engage over bumps during a slow down causing a vehicle to shudder, jump and bump to a stop. Not in a toyota but it sounds like what you are describing.

Kenny S>

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Old 01-03-2009, 03:31 PM   #6
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symptoms can be many things

No one can be really sure what is going on underneath but a trained mechanic looking at it.

I use Firestone for alignments and they clue me in to stuff like tie rod ends and ball joints and so on.

So cal paul-there really is not a lot of complication lifting our Runners 1 or 1.5" with a body lift. Over that- yes your point is true with relocating cables and so on.

Have an alignment tech look over your ride-It could be as simple as a tie rod. It could be more complicated like the steering rack itself. Several have suggested that steering rack bushings can and do go bad on our Runners.

I am following along to see what you find out. Firestone is telling me to replace the rack....

You obviously feel this is serious-hence your caution about letting others drive it. Have it checked out professionally-the life you save may be your own.... Have them check the ball joints while at it. They can fail and suddenly.

Your wheelwells just look packed too tightly with tire. I believe you would benefit from a suspension lift . Being an 01/02 your springs are amongst the shortest offered in the Runners.

What size tire are you running- is that a 265 or 275 or 285/75/16?
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
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What size tire are you running- is that a 265 or 275 or 285/75/16?
im running 285s on a ss 1.2 suspension lift.

just did the poly steering rack bushing kit and WOW! the steering is way more accurate. so accurate that when the shudder/sway problem happens in the rear on the highway i really have to b extra careful. with the bad bushings it was much more forgiving. I am still glad i did that mod. it feels great. im going to have a look at my idler arm bushings and ball joints next. if that does not work, ive got to try the body mount bushing kit.

im gonna also try throwing an extra 200 lbs in the truck to see if helps. it has not really in the past. the land cruiser springs work great for my 4runner but its recommended by steve that the car have a steal rear bumper and other weight adding mods.

P.S. i feel sorry for the guy that has not done the steering rack kit yet cuz the mod is awesome! and the install STINKS!!! holy tight spot batman. make sure u have a 3/8s drive 19mm ratchet for the center mount. 1/2 drive wrench is too big to get out once the bolt is loosened. ill post that on the bushing kit thread too!

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Old 03-06-2009, 04:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
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im going to have a look at my idler arm bushings and ball joints next. if that does not work, ive got to try the body mount bushing kit.
Hmmm... OK, well you have a 3rd gen... so no idler arm bushings to look at, because you don't have an idler arm. Since you just did your steering rack bushings, surely you noticed that you have a steering rack, which would indicate rack and pinion steering.

Also, you probably don't want to replace your balljoints unless they are bad ($100 each), so test them before just replacing them. Actually, your lower balljoints should have been replaced under recall (maybe that recall was VIN dependant and you're not covered? I'd call Toyota and look into it anyways just to be safe).

Sorry... I don't mean to sound like a jerk... just playing around a bit. (But I wasn't kidding about you not having an idler arm.)

Maybe the place that did your alignment after you installed the SS 1.2 lift didn't do a good job. It is a tough alignment to do because the rear ends up a couple of inches higher than the front. They likely wouldn't be able to get both caster and camber in spec. They should have worked on getting camber (which affects tire wear) in spec, while getting caster (which doesn't affect tire wear) as close to spec as possible. Do you still have your alignment printout?
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Old 03-06-2009, 04:39 PM   #9
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Improperly mounted/balanced/inflated tires.
Improperly aligned vehicle.

If you want some body mount bushings and a body lift, get them, but neither will fix your problem I imagine.

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Old 03-06-2009, 05:24 PM   #10
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touche on the idler arm! major noob status has just been applied. haha.

also valid points about alignment. its tough to find a shop that wont roll their eyes at you when you tell them your car is lifted but your should be able to get it close to spec.


the thing that is bothering me is it was having the same problem before the lift as well... so that makes me scratch my head.

also, these tire have less then 7000 miles on them. i rotated in my matching spare at 5000 miles. if a rear tire was not balanced, it would probably have changed the behavior. and i check my inflation ever 2 weeks. everything is holding steady at 33 lbs. and ive gone up and down a few psi to try to figure it out as well.

once again my main point is that it was doing this before lift AND tires which both happened about 7000 miles ago.
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Old 03-06-2009, 06:27 PM   #11
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I have the same shudder/shimmy problem in my 99 4x4 Limited 4Runner. It will do it at different speeds on the same roads, but it doesn't do it every time at those speeds. So I guess it's kind of an intermittent shudder since it doesn't do it all the time at say 35 mph or 60 mph.

I've had my 4Runner aligned, tires rebalanced several times, the tire's air pressure checked, but none of it helped. I even bought a new set of tires thinking it was the tires, but it was still there with the new set of tires.

I've noticed when it shudders or shimmy's that the steering wheel moves back and forth sideways a little bit in my hand, so I'm going to venture out and say that it sounds like I need to replace my steering rack bushings, or the steering rack and pinion itself. Anybody have any ideas as to what they think would be the next step in fixing my shudder/shimmy issue?

Thanks,

Doug
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Old 03-06-2009, 06:34 PM   #12
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Why not take it to a shop and ask for an opinion?

If it's a constantly occuring problem, it should be straightforwards for a good technician to pinpoint.
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Old 03-06-2009, 08:23 PM   #13
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I used to turn wrenches in a shop for a living, but it's hard to diagnose some things by yourself when you need extra hands and eyes to correctly diagnose the problem.

And I cannot afford to pay some shop $75-90 a hour to work on my rigs either.

I ordered a set a bushings from waskilly wabbit's site so hopefully that will fix my issue.
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Old 03-07-2009, 08:26 AM   #14
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the key is finding a GOOD mechanic. someone who wont tell me i need to bleed my muffler bearing. or when i took my gfs honda in, they said they aligned it but i didnt ask for the print out so they didnt have it... never had to ask before... then when i asked them y the rear still looked like the camber was way off, the tech who did it had left for the day. grrr. i know not every shop will lie to you but ive caught valvoline not changing my moms oil filter twice now. ok sorry. rant over.

also this thread is getting long so i wanted to remind everyone about THIS thread. sounds like exactly what i have. cant find any other posts to substantiate it but it certainly has me thinking.
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Old 03-07-2009, 08:58 AM   #15
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Doug your tie rod inners are likely worn-most are if they have been in place any length of time.

I just had mine done, and you can spend very little on the actual parts which may or may not make a difference in your steering feel. As you can see everyone has a slight variation of the same theme here....

Find a shop that sells lifetime alignments. Get to know them. Trust yet verify their advice on parts and the replacements.

In my case Firestone recommended a new steering rack. Independently I verified through two sources it was more likely just my tie rod inners.

However like you I still experience occasional shake and vibration through the steering wheel, only on some road surfaces and at some speeds.

I planned ahead and bought a pair of Beck-Arnley inners online ($40 each) -but when it came time to using my supplied pieces my passenger side could not be taken apart- it was all locked up tight and I watched them weld on it for 5 minutes to try to separate the right side inner from the nut attaching it. I also ended up needing a tie rod outer for that side. What could and should have been an inexpensive swap out of inners turned into an expensive day with a Moog brand inner ($213!! at Tires Plus) -to find the coveted nut that Beck Arnley and the Toyota replacement inners do not provide.

My ride was in Oregon much of its early life and wow that salt air does a number on metal underpinnings.

Also many of us mention tire wear and there are many issues with tire balancing-that is another area that has to be constantly checked and tweaked.

If you are starting on out of round or under inflated or over inflated tires not to mention out of balance wheels-I hope we can all see the possibilities are mind numbing.

It could still be the rack... but there are many variables to rule out first.

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Old 03-19-2009, 12:11 AM   #16
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Ive been having the same issues as well. Ive replaced the bushings, new tie rods, had an alignment done, rebalanced the wheels. Still no luck so i just live with it. Alignment helped though, its not as bad as it was before but the alignment guy told me everything seemed ok. Im running on OME 882/891 on 285 MTZ's.
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Old 03-19-2009, 10:42 PM   #17
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are you guys talking about the sudden sway in your car on the freeway that only happens every once in a while?
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:05 PM   #18
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my symptoms could fall in that category. In my case, its obvious that it randomly happens over even small bumps. to clarify, it only happens over bumps but not over all bumps. and even if i hit them completely head on (as accurate as that can b at highway speed).
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Old 03-20-2009, 09:02 AM   #19
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well i replaced my rear sway bar bushings end links. because i used to fell it alot in the back. after i changed it.i hardly had any body roll accept for the front still felt wierd. i have the front bushings but havent replaced them yet.
check your A arms for play cause mine have some. i also got new bushings for
those. so any way on to my story i drove out to barstow with some friends and on a trail i was going down a small incline and fell a sudden drop and i knew exactly what it was. because it happen'd to me before in my mustang. and holy behold i find my tire under my mud flap my ball joints fell out. so im now in the middle of doing this just just waiting on some money to fix it. and i didnt fell any play on my ball joints and mind you i dont jump or thrash my car going fast off road. i appolgize for such a long post but check your ball joints for sure its cheaper trust me.
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Old 03-22-2009, 05:04 PM   #20
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thanks for updating us

sorry to hear about what happened to your ball joint. Hopefully that did not lead to other damage.

If you need tie rod inners I have some I can make you a deal on.
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