kmchby76

Ok, I just finished my Tundra brake install on my 96 4runner, I bled the brakes. The problem I am having it extreme brake judder. I apply the brakes mildly and the steering wheel shakes badly and the 4runner just vibrates as it stops. Any ideas on what I may have done wrong?

nfrantz007

check to make sure you torque'd everything to spec but it sounds like the rotors... Are they new?

kmchby76

The rotors were picked up from RanchoToyotaTrucks and I had them turned at the local Kragens.

kmchby76

Can anyone tell me the proper way to bleed the ABS system? I think my problem may be that I used the old fashion 3 pumps and hold method with a partner. I just heard that was not the right way to bleed the brakes do to having ABS.

CJM

I work at a shop, thats the way to bleed the brakes. Pump, pump, pump, hold the pedal and you open the bleeder, about 3x per side. Done it on abs and non abs systems with no issues.

Your rotors sound like they are to thin or they didnt turn them, buy a cheap set if you want and see for the heck of it if it stops. Steering/shaking wheel and frontend and pedal is warped rotors.

kmchby76

Looks as if I will be taking them back to Kragen tomorrow. I will update when I have news.

Rock Slide

iTrader: (1)

Like others have said, either warped rotors or lug nuts not torqued to correct specs.

Good luck.

MauiJim

Did you make sure the "bed" the new pads and rotors properly? With new or freshly-turned rotors, you need to heat up both the pad and rotor with repeated braking to marry the two surfaces and eliminate the shaking/shudder. Here are instructions from an aftermarket brake company, but applies to stock systems:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedinstock.shtml

**edit: here's another link with a bit less reading-- http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm **

Make sure you do this in an environment where you never completely stop while you're heating the pads and rotors, or you'll 'burn' the pad face onto the rotor and create a hotspot. An open stretch of road with no traffic that allows you to get up to speed and brake very rapidly (right at the threshold of ABS kicking in) multiple times to get everything nice and heated, then you take a drive for a few minutes to allow the rotors to cool.

My 4Runner started shuddering a few months after a brake job, and of course the shop said 'you have to turn the rotors', or they suggest replacing them. Many contend that 'warped' rotors are often just pad deposits on the face of the rotor, and hard braking causing the pulsating sensation through the pedal. I did the bed in process above and it burned off the pad deposits and got rid of the shudder on my rig. Note that turning or replacing the rotors will also get rid of pad deposits, and is often recommended by shops as it is a bigger profit generator.

5-spd for life!

Does anyone see the flaw in this guys logic????????????

MauiJim- If he is worried about shudder in his rig when he applies the brakes on his "NEWLY TURNED ROTORS" would there not be any deposites? I dont understand why there would be steering wheel shudder when there are deposites on the rotor. Hint: Steering wheel shudder comes from the waving affect that out of round rotors give because when your stopping the vehicle and your rotors are out of round, then the force that the pads have on the rotor will turn into lateral force, which in turn shakes the brake assembly. If I am not mistaken when the brake assembly is shaking, it is shaking the spindle and axle assembly which the steering shaft is mated to the spindle which gives you the shimmy from the steering wheel. If there are deposites in the rotor from the pad, wouldn't you get a growling or grinding noise from the wheel area before and during braking?????????

If I were to answer Kmchby76's problem, I would say he either:

A) Has rust under the rotor face where it layes onto the hub assembly.
B) has debris under the wheel mounting face (which I doubt because it would cause a wobble all the time)
C) Kragen sucks @ turning rotors and they turned it wrong with a severe lateral runout already.

My guess is choice "C".

MauiJim

**Disclaimer-- hi all, I'm new here and don't mean to stir things up, I thought I had some info that could help the OP. I've had great experiences here on the board so far (including buying some parts from a good guy), and wanted to add to the discussion. I came from the Subaru community where some spend a good deal of money on big brakes and performance, and learned a lot there. I don't have any commercial interest or otherwise in StopTech (I don't even own any of their products), I just found that they have well-written explanations on braking issues. **

Even a few days of low-speed driving on freshly-turned rotors can leave pad deposits. I shared the experience of having brakes done, a shudder that shook the steering wheel on braking appeared, and by bedding in the pads as described in the link, I got rid of the problem.

True, but shudder or pulsating felt in the steering wheel can also be caused by a hotspot or pad deposit on the rotor.


Not necessarily. I was trying to throw out an idea that had happened to me on a truck in the past, and is essentially a free fix before the OP goes out and spends a lot of money on the problem. I agree that the rotors could have been turned incorrectly, and new front rotors are cheap enough that you could replace them and aim to get rid of the problem. But, depending on the pad that's used, pad deposits can be a problem very quickly.

If you want to further tweak your brain, check out these assertions that 'warped rotors' are a myth:

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

Not endorsing this per se, but makes an interesting read... it's from a major aftermarket racing and street brake manufacturer that would seem to have a vested interest in saying 'hey, buy MY rotors, they don't warp', but they are trying to educate on pad deposits. All I'm saying is try for yourself, it doesn't cost anything (except maybe a few hundred miles' worth of pad material).

kmchby76

At this point I am planning on buying new rotors. If that solves the problem then I will be returning to Kragens about the pair they turned. The guy there tried to tell me he believes my calipers are bad, and of course my rotors can not be turned anymore than what they are at. I do believe this will be the last time Kragen does my rotors. I never had a problem before, but customer service on this issue sucks.

kmchby76

Good news all, problem solved with new set of rotors. Now the fun begins. I will be dealing with Kragen tomorrow about some money back. I'll let ya'll know how that goes.

CJM

They turned the rotors to much imho, good luck.

Rock Slide

iTrader: (1)

Glad you got it fixed.

kmchby76

Thanks for all the help. The braking difference is amazing.

kmchby76

Now the saga continues, looks like I'm in for a long battle with Kragen. The guy over there wasn't convinced that even after I put less than 1 mile on the turned rotors that the rotors were the problem. I tild the guy that as soon as I installed the brand new rotors I had no problems what so ever. Here is what he said. "All I can tell you is that the rotors were legal when we turned them and that the lathe cuts them even." Basically he blows me off as if they are not responsible. So tomorrow I start moving up the chain of command.

bigt

or take the bronx tale lesson and for the "20 bucks" you dont have to deal with them ever again...

i do it all the time... you burn me ill let you know then never give you any of my hard earned pennys again

Ritzy4Runner

iTrader: (1)

I did the Tundra brake upgrade as well and yes it is really a difference maker. I opted to use a set off a bone yard donor truck. I got the set up complete; rotors, calipers and pads. Cost me a total of less then $100 and that included the turning of the rotors.

When I pulled them they did not appear to have hardly any real wear but as they had been sitting in a wrecking yard, I opted to have the rotors turned. I used the pads that had been on the truck as they did not appear to be worn at all. I had to take the "shine" off them using 180 grit sand paper. It worked out great!




I was told by toyota that if you do need your rotors turned, it is recommended to have them turned on the vehicle as the lathe then turns and trues the rotors to the wheel and not to the lathe mount for an off the truck turning. He also the mentioned that if it was not possible to do it on the vehicle was to match-mark the rotors. This is a bit more involved and not too many of us have the tools for this, but it involves mounting the rotor and using a micrometer type gauge that is mounted to the upper part of the frame above the rotor. It will make contact withe the rotor so when you turn the rotor by hand you can read the amount of run out (wobble) on the rotor. Thsi way you can match mark the rotor to the hub. If the run out exceeds 3-5 thousandths he told me to rotate the rotor one bolt hole and check again. You continue the process until you get less then 3-5 thousandths.

I did not have the tools to do this so I mounted my rotors and rotated them with the calipers installed and if they rubbed enough to feel an uneveness, I rotated the rotor one hole at a time until I found the optimum location. I used a couple of the lug nuts to hold the rotor to the hub and mounted the caliper then did the "rub" check. If you do feel resistance, then rotate the rotor one hole at a time until you find the "verticle" for that hub and rotor.


Then I torqued everything down, bled the brakes then mounted the wheels. I have not had any problem and I did a similar "bedding" of the pads and yes they do make a difference.

toytech76

Or if you really want to get a response from him, tell him you will give the BAR a call to see what they say about it. In case you dont know, the BAR is the bureau of automotive repair. The are the law of the automotive world and handle complaints for consumers regarding automotive parts/repairs. Mention that and he just might change his tune

kmchby76

Well, after a talk with the District Manager for Kragens I did manage to recover my $30 for the turning of the rotors. Basically I ate the cost of the rotors I got from Rancho Toyota Trucks. But it's cool, at least I got some thing back.