Centmo

Hi Everyone, I am copying my thread over from www.toyota-4runner.org in the hopes I will get more feedback over here...

Towing questions...
Hi, I am the happy owner of a 1998 4Runner SR5 V6 4WD Manual. I have already previously installed a 4-wire trailer light controller, and used it with a small trailer to transport a dirtbike.

The time has come that I am shopping for a travel trailer. I am looking to buy an 80's 17' bigfoot trailer (single axle) with a dry weight of 1875lbs, so I will guess around ~2600lbs loaded up. My 4Runner is rated for 5000lbs towing capacity and I have installed a 5000lb hidden-hitch with 500lb rated tounge weight, so I don't think weight will be a problem.

Now for my questions...

1) The trailer, I am pretty sure, will have electric brakes, so I will need to install a brake controller in my 4runner. What brake controller do you recommend and why?

2) Is there any advice out there on how best to install it in a 3rd-gen 4unner?

3) Will I need some kind of wiring harness to route my existing 4-wire lighting plug into a 7-prong plug for the trailer?

4) Will my alternator need upgrading? I read that this puts extra load on the alt, as it charges a battery on the trailer to power its brakes (??)

4) I am planning on replacing my rear diff and tranny fluids (front diff and transfer case can wait....will only be under strain in 4WD am I right?) before taking the trailer on a trip. I have been using regular (non-synthetic) gear oil 80W90 and 75W90 if I remember right....should I be switching to synthetic? Will this help the tranny under the extra load and heat?

Thank you all for your help!

Cheers,
Ken.

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hmmmm...
All these 4runner enthusiasts, and no comments?? :-P

Well, I've decided on the Tekonsha Prodigy proportional brake controller, but still don't know about the install. Has anyone installed one of these in a 3rd gen 4runner?

Thanks,
Ken.

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get some expert towing advice
centmo- I honestly do not feel the 3rd gen 4Runner is a wise vehicle to pull the load you are suggesting.

Can it do occasional hauling? yes, regular towing of this length and weight?-no.

I love our rides as much as my wallet allows-but I feel your idea of a 17' trailer is more than this vehicle can safely tow and more importantly stop.

For one thing I believe most people would agree an automatic is almost a requirement for towing with our 3rd gens. Never have understood it, but autos are just better for towing.

There are more issues than just the weight and tongue weight. Additionally, you will soon load that trailer up with water/gear/supplies/consumables.

You would want additional cooling capacity almost certainly. I believe I have been reading about issues with the transmission coolers on automatics needing upgrading and they are integral with the radiator not a separate "bolt on"-again this is for automatics. Manuals don't have this extra cooling capacity, and if anyone will ever need it, it would be you.

IF you have not already done rear springs you most certainly would be to support that load out back.

I am not a towing expert and will not pretend to be. I encourage you to speak with people who pull this kind of length and weight extensively.Travel trailer organizations like Big Sam or even Uhaul will direct you to others who are like yourself. You won't see a lot of Runners out there, I hate to say it but the domestics rule the towing turf.

I do believe your idea of a brake controller is excellent, but is not enough.

Speaking of brakes I believe folks on this forum or Yota Tech would try to lead you to the Tundra brake upgrade.
I do believe you would need all the braking you could get with 17' behind you.

Not trying to be a jerk, sir.

I use my real name on this forum and Yota Tech because I would not say this to you if I did not feel it was correct. I drive a manny tranny myself and love it. I would not tow with it on a routine basis. An occasional trip to pull some gravel or drywall that is fine.

My folks until recently drove our highways and byways full time. I have picked up a bit of stuff from my father, they have pulled everything you can hitch up. Vehicle stability is everything in an emergency braking situation.

The width and height of our vehicles relative to the total length you would be hauling figures into my understanding of how vehicles react at highway speeds. You are not a low riding 01 or 02.

I hope to get others here to give you some feedback relative to this.

I certainly hope I am wrong but please do not risk it to prove so.

Please move up to a Tundra if you really want to haul that kind of load regularly.
They are practically giving the new ones away out here.... dang it is tempting too....

__________________
Ron Helmuth
99 4Runner SR5-5spd V6-4wd
Rear Electric Locker
All Pro Offroad sliders/ARB "Taco" front bumper/OME 881/891 springs
Bilstein shocks/extended rear diff. breather/airbox deckplate mod.
Nitto Terra Grapplers LT265/75/16
Redline Tuning Hood Struts(prop rod just lays there now!)
KennelAire doggie divider
Infinity BassLink rockin'
Rear Wing now matches body color-white056

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Ron - Thanks for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to give some advice. I considered everything you said very seriously, did some research, and will bring up these points:

1) I will only be towing this trailer for a max of 5 camping trips per year, not 'regular' towing.

2) With regard to which is better for towing, auto or manual, opinions out there seem pretty mixed. There doesn't seem to be a clear winner. Here's one such thread... http://www.tundrasolutions.com/foru...l-vs-automatic/

3) From my reading online, it appears that automatic transmissions are more susceptable to overheating, and may require additional cooling.

4) My trailer weighs 1875lbs dry (the lightest 17' trailer you will find). Trailer fully-loaded weight will be ~2400lbs (about 10% of which will be tongue weight), which is less than half the rated towing capacity of my 4runner (5000lbs). If this is an unsafe load, I would have expected Toyota to have lowered their rated towing capacity.

5) Assuming a 10% tongue weight, of say 240 lbs (I can set with weight distribution hitch)...are you sure I would need suspension upgrades in the back?

6) Comparing tow load vs vehicle weight: Load: 2400lbs. Vehicle: 4070lbs (curb weight) + ~600lbs (passengers + cargo) = 4670lbs. The load is about half the weight of the tow vehicle, which seems pretty safe compared to most of the rigs out there.

7) With regard to stopping, the trailer electric brakes will be calibrated with the proportional brake controller to stop the weight of the trailer, no more and no less. If this is setup properly, I don't see how this will strain my 4runner brakes.

The one thing I will give you, however, is the relatively short wheel-base of the 4runner. I could see how this might be less stable at highway speeds.

Not trying to argue with you on these points, I just want to open the dialogue so we can get down to the facts of the matter.

Thanks again for your message!

Ken.

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five times a year and how far?
Thanks for considering my issues and I re-read what I had written and it seems a little alarmist, but I am not retracting anything I said.

Five times a year- yes, you will probably be just fine. However- I still feel that total length is not wise. Going how far away? Travelling at highway speeds?

17' would be longer than the Runner itself, yes?It is the length that worries me as much or more than the weight.

I can't believe no one else has jumped in. I think that sort of demonstrates people do not tow a lot with their Runners-it happens yes recommended no.

Please are you over on Yota Tech-bring this on over there. It is a little more techie than here no offense to anyone intended.

5) Am I sure you will need suspension upgrades? No- I can't be certain. Have you already have the spring recall done? Most folks already have sagging rears, with the addition of tongue weight I do think it is highly likely your rear will be sagging badly.


I accept your points, I am not here to dispute them. You do seem to have done your research. I agree with the braking controller being an excellent idea-have seen those in use and they work fine.

The short wheelbase of the Runner and the narrow track in conjunction with the height it sits at is simply not an ideal tow vehicle. You can probably tow just fine. My point is that safer alternatives exist and would excel.


__________________
Ron Helmuth
99 4Runner SR5-5spd V6-4wd
Rear Electric Locker
All Pro Offroad sliders/ARB "Taco" front bumper/OME 881/891 springs
Bilstein shocks/extended rear diff. breather/airbox deckplate mod.
Nitto Terra Grapplers LT265/75/16
Redline Tuning Hood Struts(prop rod just lays there now!)
KennelAire doggie divider
Infinity BassLink rockin'
Rear Wing now matches body color-white056

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Ron, I have taken your advice, and copied this to the Yota Tech forum.

According to this site... http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm

...my 4runner with a 105" wheelbase, should be good with a 19' or shorter travel trailer...assuming that's accurate (?).

With regard to distance...up to 500km at a time.

Ken.

Texas_Ace

I will say that you would be better off just coping your post and not the whole thread, no one will read all of that. Plus you usually get better advise if you start a brand new thread.

Having towed a 5000lb+ trailer, i can say a little bit:

1: No idea what trailer brake kit you would get, my truck came with the OEM tow package, you could possibly get that retrofitted.

2: see above

3: see above

4: The alternator should be fine as long as you don't have a lot of other stuff using the power. aka lights, big radio ect.

5: I would change ALL fluids reguadless if it has been awhile. The means both diffs, t-case, tranny, oil and the radiator.

This is to make sure everything is ready for towing and the extra stress. The front diff could be optional i guess though it is a good idea to change all those fluids at once so you always know how long it has been.

It only takes an hour or 2 to change all the fluids so time should not be a reason not to. it is quite easy, also while you are at it, get a grease gun and lube all the driveshaft joints.

I would also use synthetic fluids all around, thats what i use. I use AMSoil in everything on my truck and love it, though i used to use mobile1 and it worked fine too.

Overall do a full tune-up if it has been awhile. plugs and wires are another good cheap thing, air filter as well. fuel filter is another good idea.

Change ALL fluids, flush radaitor and you should be good to go.



EDIT: was board and read the rest of that post you had. Overall i have to agree with the other guy on there. As i said i towed a 5000lb+ trailer 1500 miles last year with my 4runner. Going that way was not too bad, the 4runner didn't have ample power by any means but it did it better than i though. The way back though was a litteral NIGHTMARE. We had the trialer loaded wrong with the weight at the back of it, and it was the scariest thing i have ever been though on the road.

Here are awnsers to your second set of questions:

1: you should be fine if you are only doing it a few times a year.

2: The Auto is usually better for towing overall, the manual likes to eat clutches with a lot of towing. The auto with a good tranny cooler doesn't really have any problems

3: True, the auto trannys can overheat but getting a tranny cooler costs all of $50 and an hour of time. and once that is done it will pretty much work fine.

4: As was said, the lenght is really the bigger issue vs weight. Read above from when i towed a 5000lb trailer. how you load it will make all the differnce in the world. but with how long that is you could still have problems.

5: You needing suspension upgades would depend on what your springs condition is now. If they are already bad then don't worry about them and replace them when you have time and $$$ with something good like OEM. If they are pretty good then some air bags might be a good idea. Just depends on how your trucks condtion is.

6: once again, the size of the trailer is the problem here more then the load. If you wanted to tow an 8" trailer with 2500lb then i don't think anyone would say yu would have a problem.

7: The 4runner brakes should be checked before ANY towing. trailer brakes ARE eletrical and get the signal through a relitively unprotected connection. It is not uncommon for those connections to short out when it is wet/raining. so you want to make sure the 4runner brakes are up to it. Also, it does add more stress tot eh 4runner brakes, it takes a second for the eletrical brakes to kick in, for that little bit the 4runner brakes are doing all the braking.

Overall, like i said above, change all the fluids and do a full tune-up. and you can do it, you will just need to be carful and make wise decisions.

Centmo

Hey Ace, thanks for the input. Weight distribution in the truck and trailer very important, duly noted.

With regard to changing all those fluids...what pump do you use to pump the oils into the various locations? I have a hand pump syringe thing that you fill up from the jug, then squirt into the hole. It is a huge pain and makes a terrible mess. The amount of cursing I do under the truck with tranny fluid all over me....grrr.

Do you have a link to a picture of the device you use?

Also, where do you find all the grease nipples? I have the basic hayes manual for the 4runner, but it does not describe very well where these are.

I have the long-life rad coolant (red), does it need to be replaced, if it still looks nice and red?

Thanks again.

Ken.

Texas_Ace

Personally i just used the bottle the fluids came in to pour it into the rear diff and t-case. I don't remember about the front diff though.

Whenever i have something i can't get the bottle in i have a pump i got at harbor freight that screws onto a standard 1 quart bottle and then you just pump it out, it takes a lot of pumping but is usually very clean and easy if your arms hold out.

It looks like these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/SIERRA-OIL-PUMP-...2em118Q2el1247

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-O...spagenameZWD1V

The grease nipples are on the rear driveshaft, there are about 8 if i remember right.

And depending on your exact model there might be some up front as well, mine didn't have them though some do. check the ball joints ect and see if you have them.

As for the coolent, i am sure it has never been flushed.

Long life or not, stuff builds up in there and towing will add more heat which is bad and it needs ot be working perfect. Pick up a bottle of radaitor flush from epeboys (or any parts store). It will have instructions on the bottle, basicaly you pour it in, let the truck run for a little bit and then drain and refill. It cleans out the system.

Last thing you want is an overheating problem while in the middle of towing, better to be safe then sorry. That why you want to do this full tune up, becuase if something could go wrong, it will while towing.

pkt1213

iTrader: (1)

Let me know what you do about wiring a brake controller. If I wind up keeping the trailer I have now I'll probably be installing one cause it's a double axel and has brakes on the front but some jack ass rewired it for a standard 4 pin. So I have to redo that.

I've towed quite a bit of weight, 2000+ lbs for the trailer and the car was about 2500+ lbs, with the 4runner. It did ok but going up and down hills on the interstate was not much fun.

If you do it a lot you might also want to look into putting the Tundra brakes on the front of your rig. I'm probably going to be doing that.

CJM

The truck will handle the weight ok, its the lack of width that will cause stability issues.

I highly recommend you beef up the rear suspension, posibly using airbags to handle the weight of the tongue load. I would also recommend you install a tranny cooler and not use overdrive at all if possible.

The truck will handle it, but dont expect to be fast.

Ron Helmuth

good to see some other opinions.

Centmo if I was being too rough on you I apologize. I consider safety of paramount importance. I am glad you are getting a wider range of opinions.

I think the sentence that sums it all up best is above (parpahrasing not a quote

#6-the size of the trailer here is more important than the load-if you were hauling a 8 ft trailer with 2500 lbs no one would be alarmed.

thanks other Yota Techers for chiming in,

we were getting nothing but my nervous nellie alarmist leanings over on T4R.org

Parker Runner

The 4runner has a wheelbase of about 106 inches.

The 4runner, from the factory, could haul a jetski. Maybe.

I think the motor is more than up to the 5,000lb load.

Do all the upgrade stuff. It will still be an adventure without an advanced hitch.

Centmo

Well it's been quite a while since I started this thread, but since someone replied to it and brought it back to life, I may as well provide an update on my towing experience. I towed the trailer from Calgary to Tofino and back, through the rockies, and taking the 'scenic' lillooet-whistler route which was recommended to me. Overall, the towing was OK. In a head wind I could really feel the drag. The lolloet detour was a bad idea, and had some really steep sections. On the average 'steep' hill, I was going 60 in third gear so she was kind of struggling. People wizzing past me, while I'm clutching the stearing wheel and leaning as far forward as I can to help the rig up the hill. It was middle of summer, and 30+ degrees C outside. What really worried me was after a long hilly stretch, the metal shaft of the stick shift (I have manual transmission) would be hot to the touch, like almost uncomfortable to keep your hand against it for too long. Same with the 2H-4H-4L shifter shaft. That tells me the gears are piping hot, probabaly not a good thing - and causing a lot of wear.

So yeah, we made it OK, but I don't think this truck is built for towing 2500-3000 lb loads through the mountains. I like my 4runner too much to put it through that again. I'll keep the camping trips closer to home until I can afford a bigger truck.

- Ken.

rocket

iTrader: (1)

Centmo,
Thank you for the detailed update. Very useful info about your towing experiences, especially for those of us who have 5pds.
If you wouldn't mind sharing, I'd like to see a pic of your trailer/4runner.
-rocket

Centmo

I think this one was taken near Kamloops...

Cheers,
Ken.

Ron Helmuth

yes thanks for the update. Glad the towing went safely.

Appreciate the feedback to the advice given.

Centmo

A few more points to add, now that I've read the whole thread again...

1) The prodigy brake controller works great. For the install, I pulled out the ashtray and installed the controller it in it's place. It fits perfectly in there, and its out of the way so your knee doesn't bump into it. I can take a picture if anyone is interested.

2) Once I had the brake controller calibrated, I really didn't feel like there was any extra strain on the 4runner brakes. If anything, I had the trailer brakes setup with a little extra juice so it actually pulled a little on the truck. This way I always know they're working.

3) I Made no upgrades to shocks, and no weight distribution hitch. Sure, she sagged some in the back, with all the gear in the truck plus the tounge weight (see pic above), but I think it was OK. I tried to load the heaviest things as far forward in the truck as possible, and the heaviest trailer items over the trailer axle.

4) With regard to towing length, wheelbase and highway speeds, I really did not feel much sway at all. Maybe very slight at times, but most of the time it was zero. What I would feel more is 'bucking' up and down after going over a bump.

5) Never went to full synthetic oils in the tranny, diffs, etc. Just kept what I had, what's in the 4runner owners manual. I wonder if I had gone to synthetic, if the gears (and stick shifter) would not have gotten so hot.

Cheers,
Ken.